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[Morgrim7]

Here is lower level player on iso... How can I get better? Should I play people with a lower.level than myself? Any advice on setting up an engine? If VP tracker is not available, should I track VPs manually? I have just been convinced to play on iso.   

[dondon151]

You should never seek to play with opponents of a lower skill level if you want to improve at any competitive game.

[WanderingWinder]

You should never seek to play with opponents of a lower skill level if you want to improve at any competitive game.

With so many absolutes, you're statement MUST be wrong
It's generally helpful to play people who are better or close to your level, but in fact it doesn't really matter THAT much for dominion IF you always go over your games and plans afterwards to try to suss out what you did right and wrong, whether your thought process was good, what other possibilities there were, etc. It's easier to do against stronger opponents, because they will often give you examples of other strong plans via their play. But mostly, you really want to be having fun while you play.

[DG]

One advantage you get on isotropic is a game log. You can look back at a defeat and learn where you went wrong, or what your opponent did well. Sometimes you can pick out some quite simple things you can add to your game.

[dondon151]

With so many absolutes, you're statement MUST be wrong

You'd be surprised at how correct it is!

[RisingJaguar]

Just to add on, better opponents make your end game much crisper.  That's just a product of having many closer games and more optimal decisions.

[Geronimoo]

With so many absolutes, you're statement MUST be wrong

You'd be surprised at how correct it is!

Well, in poker you could become more proficient at beating bad players than some pro's by only playing against bad players.

[RisingJaguar]

With so many absolutes, you're statement MUST be wrong

You'd be surprised at how correct it is!

Well, in poker you could become more proficient at beating bad players than some pro's by only playing against bad players.

Learning fundamentals would probably be easier without the strain of playing the top level players.  Think training mode for a fighting game or the minor leagues for a baseball player. 

[ehunt]

Playing against weak opponents gives you the risk of learning wrong or irrelevant lessons.

For instance, maybe your opponent gets all the cities and destroys you with a ridiculous 4 province megaturn. You deduce that city is a really strong card and resolve to buy city all the time. You play against other people who do this, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, since cities really do become quite strong when two players are working on emptying that pile.

You start to think of boards with city on them as "city games," and you find that in city games, whoever wins the city split 6-4 has an overwhelming chance of winning, so it's worth buying things like university to get more cities quickly. You play so many weak players who help you empty the city pile that you start to get really good at city games.

Then you play a city game against a better player. Except he opens silver/smithy instead of wishing well/feast - wtf?? He doesn't contest you for cities, and you get the tenth city around the time he gets the fifth province. Now you've got a stack of laboratories which would be a stack of labra-markets if you could empty a third pile, but there's no way to empty a third pile and pick up the four duchy advantage you'll need over your opponent in time. What the better player realizes is that this wasn't a city game at all.

In fact the lesson you should have learned in that very first game you got beat by the other inexperienced player is that when an opponent buys city, it pays to end the game quickly and it's a bad idea to help him empty piles.

A similar sad story explains why so many inexperienced players are attracted to alchemist, pirate ship, etc. All these cards can cause what appear to be devastating crushes, but only because they're being used against weak players. That's not to say you shouldn't play weaker players - it's less stressful and you still learn a lot about the game. Just bear in mind that the lesson you've learned is usually more subtle than you think - you think you've learned that "a village/council room engine beats big money" when in fact you've learned "a village/council room engine beats big money when it buys a witch on turn 3 and the opponent buys a harvest."

[Jfrisch]

a few good rules of thumb.
Terminal draw is a big money enabler. True for everything better than moat. A good majority of strong BM enablers are drawers, so, in general,if you see a terminal drawer don't feel afraid about going BM.

cantrips are worse with terminal draw. Especially true of non-village cantrips. With terminal draw you reasonably often will draw your card dead in which case it is no better than a curse.

If you are going BM, don't buy more than 3 terminals. 2 if they are large drawers (draw more than 2 cards)

In order to go for an engine, the engine needs to have a bonus. Torturer chains give a vicious attack. Goons, give a lot of VP, bridge/highway lead to a mega-turns (the former with a good engine present, the latter with good +buy/pseudo +buy)  In general, engines thrive with abilities that self-synergize (hunting party/goons/torturer/bridge). As a general rule engines need a good benefit, better than (they can get be provinces). (hunting party being a clear exception)

All of these rules are often breakable and you may already know some/all of them but these are basic things you need to know to pass the beginner threshhold. As for the strong player debate, I would say aim for playing opponents who will give you a 35-40% win/60-65% lose rate, You should still learn a good amount but the play won't be so ahead of your level taht you have no chance. In general, if you can, get players 10 or so levels above where you are. And, more than anything, ask your opponents where you went wrong (if it's not obvious). Most people are happy to oblige

[jamuspsi]

cantrips are worse with terminal draw. Especially true of non-village cantrips. With terminal draw you reasonably often will draw your card dead in which case it is no better than a curse.

I've been playing off and on for a few months now, and just recently crawled out of the level <=0 abyss.  And while I've experienced what you said, and it makes total sense now, it took seeing you say it like that to really sink in.  Terminal draw can actually *mess up* your deck if you draw e.g. treasuries dead.

Uhm, thanks!

[Morgrim7]

What about all my other questions?
 And one more... how many Possessions should it take (assuming there are no helpers like HP or Golem) to start rushing the green (or the Possessions)?

[Dsell]

What about all my other questions?
 And one more... how many Possessions should it take (assuming there are no helpers like HP or Golem) to start rushing the green (or the Possessions)?

How many possessions would a possessor possess if a possessor could possess possessions?

[Dsell]

[/unhelpfulness]

In my experience it really depends on the board (like sooo many other things in Dominion). If your opponent is not going for possession, you don't really need to rush the green and can focus on buildup of either a possession engine or money (though I don't believe BM possession is any good at ALL). If your opponent does go for possession then obviously rushing green is more important, but I think it still depends on the setup. If you have villages or other ways of playing possession multiple times per turn, too much greening can get in the way and engine buildup will likely be better. But if you are just going for a possession here and there, I would green pretty early (like ~1 or 2 possessions...those things are expensive so it's hard to both rush green and buy a lot of them).

But again I'd stress that it depends on the board and, especially with a card like possession, what your opponent is doing.

[DStu]

Assuming there are no helpers, you should take no possession at all.

In a Province game, every Possession you buy could have been a Province. AND the Potion has to show up in the right hand, otherwise it is a Curse (assuming no other Potion cards). The right play for Possession is often to ignore it, play a fast big money, grab your 5 Provinces and lean back while getting possessed late in the game. Just don't try to build up some megaturn engine that gets its payoff late in the game, because then, if you are unlucky, your opponent gains it.

I would say standard reasons to go for possession (in no particular order):
1) Your opponent builds up for such a megaturn, you are behind and take the gamble
2) There really is the possibility to play multiple Possessions per turn. So there is a great engine on the board, maybe TR/KC,
3) There are other Alchemy cards that you really want, and you happen to have $6p.

[dondon151]

Based on what DStu said above, it seems to indicate that Colony boards are good indicators for Possession, no?

[ftl]

Yes.

[WanderingWinder]

Also, it's much much much more effective against engines than against big money.

[ShuffleLuck]

Here is lower level player on iso... How can I get better? Should I play people with a lower.level than myself? Any advice on setting up an engine? If VP tracker is not available, should I track VPs manually? I have just been convinced to play on iso. 

You should practice tracking VP in your head. Usually this is pretty easy -- you just have to keep track of the province and duchy buys. Note that VP chips are always known, and can be found by clicking on the info button on iso (it's also really useful for black market, to see what's in the deck).

I think it's also good to try playing with the point tracker a few times, so you can see what is available to other people when they are using it. It also demonstrates how useful it is to keep track of everything. Using a point tracker is against the rules of dominion, though, so I wouldn't make a habit of it (although its use is quite common and accepted on ISO, for a variety of reasons).

[qmech]

If VP tracker is not available, should I track VPs manually?

Yes, tracking VP is important.  If you don't you have far too many games where you aren't sure whether you're trying to end it quickly or spin it out as long as possible.  I find it easiest to track the numbers (or even difference between the numbers) of each victory card in the decks, and knowing that you're up a Province but down 2 Duchies is slightly more useful that knowing that the scores are tied.