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[popsofctown]

Bishop is an interesting card and one of my favorites, even though it's one of my weaker cards.  I think that's mostly because I don't know when to open with it, when not to, etc.

But something I don't understand is why whenever Bishop is discussed people say the Golden deck is Province, Gold, Gold, Silver, Bishop. It trashes a Province and buys a Province every turn.  This guarantees 5 VPs per turn. 

But it's an alternate VP strategy, and it depletes the Provinces.  Substituting a Gold for the Province cuts your VP income by 1 per turn.  It's also easier to set up I think.

I've had success with a Gold Golden deck trashing a Gold each turn, clogging my opponent's deck with Provinces until I pass him.  I've never tried the Province golden deck because it doesn't make sense to me.

Am I missing something here?  Is it possible to assemble the green Golden deck so rapidly that you're denying your opponent provinces because they're destroyed?  Is the point of the green Golden deck to beat the gold Golden deck with the larger per turn income?  If it's restricted to that purpose I guess it makes sense.  Maybe there's a level 40 metagame where people see boards and decide VP chip strategies dominate the board and they want to race to a trashing engine.

[Ozle]

I think the province is because your are also buying that extra province, so its quicker to get ahead and end the game, dont forget not to trash that last province and you gain

I think if your opponent can sucessfully gain 2 province a turn to out race you getting 5 VPS (plus you have one Province in hand dont forget, for 11 that turn) then your likely to lose whether you buy gold or province.

[chwhite]

Assembling a Province-trashing Golden Deck is generally only going to take one more turn than a Gold-trashing Golden Deck, and the Province-based version has the twin advantages of a) providing more points per turn, and b) actually bringing about the end of the game, which is actually important most of the time.  You'll want to end the game quickly if your opponent has Gardens/Silk Roads, or if they have an engine that can actually accommodate all the Provinces, or is even just going Bishop on their own deck-clogging green, which they'll always have an option to do.

Sometimes you can build a fancy engine that gains a bunch of high-cost cards and then crunches them with Bishop to get more points than buy Province, donate it, wash rinse repeat- and in those sorts of cases you're happy to skip Province.  And, sure, if your opponent has gotten out to a couple Province lead with a clogged deck, than drawing the game out by trashing Gold instead for awhile can be a strong play.  But it's pretty rare for that to be my plan from the start, and even in these cases it's important to keep in mind how you actually want the game to end.

[WanderingWinder]

Basically there's usually no reason to NOT go for the province version (unless maybe you go for the colony version?). You have a province in your hand to act as some extra VP buffer (I guess you can grab one province then do your gold golden too), you're gaining VP faster, and you're ending the game faster. Usually ending the game faster helps you, because you're going to have a lead, and it gives them less time to pull off something big and comeback. Well, usually it won't matter, but you're winning and don't want the game to last forever, or it's a mirror and the extra point a turn is actually important. Now, if your opponent somehow spikes a big lead and then can't maintain whatever it is that he did, then by all means, you want to switch over to the gold. The only other real reason I can think is if bureaucrat is in the kingdom. In this case, the attack can gum up the green version but not the full-treasure version, so you go with the full-treasure one until you get a big lead, probably.

[popsofctown]

I think maybe this means my opponent is always "spiking ahead a province lead", which means I'm bad at thin deck dominion

[Galzria]

I love the Golden Deck, and have pulled it off a handful of times. A lot of times if you open Bishop with no other trasher's or VP chip cards on the table, your opponent will feel forced to counter with his own Bishop (remember, even if all you Bishop are your 3 Estates and a few Coppers... you've turned those Coppers into 1 VP each, and those Estates into 2, AND you've removed them from your deck!) just to keep up. This additional trashing via HIS Bishop can make putting together a Golden Deck plausible. I'll often be careful with my early buys, gunning for that situation. Yes, he gets the added benefit of your Bishop plays as well, but most likely that wasn't his intention out of the gate.

Most of all though, it's very important to count VP's. This is a little easier than normal as you can ALWAYS see how many chips each player has accumulated. And if you aren't holding any VP cards (or only the one), all you have to do is focus on where your opponent is at. If you're ahead, aim to end the game on Province's. If you're behind, aim to draw the game out. If you're ahead but it looks like he's building a mega-engine, aim to end the game (or at least reduce what he is capable of buying). This last piece is important to note, because you can steal engine pieces and convert them into VP. Colony game where your opponent is gunning for Highways? Snag 3 to your Golden Deck and he's hampered a LOT.

Just pay attention to the flow. Most of the time, gunning to get into the Golden Deck and ending the game ASAP is the right move. But being able to adjust is always important.

[WanderingWinder]

Well... typically nobody goes for the golden deck except (normally) with bishop/chapel. Are you doing otherwise? If you are only talking about these situations, try reading this thread:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=506.0

[popsofctown]

Oh, I thought Bishop/Steward was a thing too.

[WanderingWinder]

Oh, I thought Bishop/Steward was a thing too.

It can be, on a weak board. Possibly a good bit better if your opponent gets an early bishop too. Without help, it's ~4-5 turns slower than the chapel version, accumulating pretty few more points along the way. To be viable, you probably do need to do some gold crunching, and here only against a BM opponent who is like over-greening. Engines will probably stomp you here, etc.
Also, my earlier comment isn't meant to be if they have a lead at all; I mean if they have a substantial lead.

[chwhite]

Oh, I thought Bishop/Steward was a thing too.

It can be, on a weak board. Possibly a good bit better if your opponent gets an early bishop too. Without help, it's ~4-5 turns slower than the chapel version, accumulating pretty few more points along the way. To be viable, you probably do need to do some gold crunching, and here only against a BM opponent who is like over-greening. Engines will probably stomp you here, etc.
Also, my earlier comment isn't meant to be if they have a lead at all; I mean if they have a substantial lead.

Bishop/Chapel is the best... but really any fast trashing allows for the Golden Deck, and if there aren't disruptive attacks, or potential for double-Province turns (basically +Card and +Buy), or a few other things than there's a good chance it's a strong strategy.  I guess this is sort of what you're saying by "weak board", so we're probably mostly in agreement here, though I'd probably consider it viable a little more often.

In addition to Chapel and Steward, I've had success using things like lucky Turn 3 Mints, or a pair of Lookouts (yes really), or a couple other things to get down to Golden Deck, or at least close analogues.  Many of my "Golden Decks" actually have a smattering of labs and cantrips and whatnot as well as the canonical $7-$8 + Province + Bishop.

[WanderingWinder]

Oh, I thought Bishop/Steward was a thing too.

It can be, on a weak board. Possibly a good bit better if your opponent gets an early bishop too. Without help, it's ~4-5 turns slower than the chapel version, accumulating pretty few more points along the way. To be viable, you probably do need to do some gold crunching, and here only against a BM opponent who is like over-greening. Engines will probably stomp you here, etc.
Also, my earlier comment isn't meant to be if they have a lead at all; I mean if they have a substantial lead.

Bishop/Chapel is the best... but really any fast trashing allows for the Golden Deck, and if there aren't disruptive attacks, or potential for double-Province turns (basically +Card and +Buy), or a few other things than there's a good chance it's a strong strategy.  I guess this is sort of what you're saying by "weak board", so we're probably mostly in agreement here, though I'd probably consider it viable a little more often.

In addition to Chapel and Steward, I've had success using things like lucky Turn 3 Mints, or a pair of Lookouts (yes really), or a couple other things to get down to Golden Deck, or at least close analogues.  Many of my "Golden Decks" actually have a smattering of labs and cantrips and whatnot as well as the canonical $7-$8 + Province + Bishop.

Sure. That's mostly what I mean by weak board. If BM/Smithy or worse is the best thing you can find, that's pretty weak. Two lookouts? Man that's weak. You make a good point on not needing the 'canonical' deck precisely though. Cantrips are always welcome (well, they can make you vulnerable to thief, noble brigand, pirate ship, saboteur). Also a lot of the time when doing something like the steward, or really any form, you get down to say 6 cards - gold gold silver silver bishop and a card you trash right here, say. Usually best to keep buying stuff at this point. Yes, you can miss your bishop and whatnot, but spending a turn not getting a component generally doesn't help you so so much, and you can usually do that later. Just don't want to buy something other than say gold or province (or peddler)

[jomini]

Another reason to keep your deck green rather than golden is that you opponent may start buying bishops. Yes BM dies a green death while a true golden deck chugs along with 4 points a turn. However, your opponent can drag sometimes buy a bunch of bishops for a three pile and eek out 2 or 3 points a turn. Particularly against engine decks, you always have to be wary of the opponent swapping in a bishop and cutting your relative VP gain in half while piling the duchies, estates, and bishops.

[olneyce]

Variations on the Golden Deck are fun.  I had this game recently:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120517-235310-83717144.html

Double Tactician, with University and Bishop and Ambassador.  Shuttle Curses over to the opponent, grab cards with the University and then trash them with the Bishop.  Gain a few VP every turn AND muck up your opponent's deck.  I'm not really sure it's the optimal strategy, but it was fun to play.

[popsofctown]

  Gain a few VP every turn AND muck up your opponent's deck.  I'm not really sure it's the optimal strategy, but it was fun to play.

When the world champion of a game says this about that game, that's when you know it's a good game.