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[def]

Of course, I because both Michael and Eevee both voted for yuma, I suspect them!  Michael for being the #2 poster and bandwagoning.

So I'll just suspect you for suspecting them for voting early, that sounds nice.

Consent in the other games so far was that not lynching first day gives the mafia a free kill and we have the same situation again the next day, apart from information some roles could gather, so no use to do so.
If we can get a discussion going to create some suspicion, good, if not, it's still best play to lynch randomly to create information. A bit bandwagoning, while risky, might help here, because with one vote, noone feels forced to react, but with two or three, maybe. Is there anything wrong with this reasoning?

[Galzria]

I'm gonna suspect Voltgloss because he gave "reasons" to be quieter and not say much for the next day and a half, allowing for the town to dig it's own holes.

I'm not buying the convenient "I'll be busy with work until tomorrow night". I demand the truth!

[michaeljb]

Well don't know if there's much I can say to defend myself here that I didn't already say--I voted yuma because for having the lowest post count, but like I said def probably would have been the better choice to avoid the bandwagon issue, while still calling out the quiet ones.

As I understand it, changing my vote once a little pressure is applied to me isn't the right move (don't the Mafia like to be crowd-pleasers to avoid suspicion?), so I'll stick with it until we hear something from yuma.

If I were mafia (I'm not ) I feel that it would be pretty poor play to bandwagon this early--I just voted for yuma hoping to get some activity; Mafia would want to get yuma lynched, and I honestly didn't think my second vote was very threatening to that end (though I am inexperienced and as Voltgloss said bandwagons can build quickly, so the idea that the second vote is no big deal could just be me being noobish). Wouldn't it be more prudent for the Mafia to wait until someone already has a few votes on them before they join in?

[O]

Haven't had time yet to read everything in full, but I am a tad worried about VOTES being cast around so quickly.  Suspicions are fine, even strong suspicions, but do we really want to have votes on the table so soon?  Are we not worried about votes piling in so quickly that the Mafia are able to sneak the hammer on a Townie before we really get the discussion going?

Some people may want to vote quickly so that we don't end up having to read novels before we have any real information.

[Galzria]

Haven't had time yet to read everything in full, but I am a tad worried about VOTES being cast around so quickly.  Suspicions are fine, even strong suspicions, but do we really want to have votes on the table so soon?  Are we not worried about votes piling in so quickly that the Mafia are able to sneak the hammer on a Townie before we really get the discussion going?

Some people may want to vote quickly so that we don't end up having to read novels before we have any real information.

Hey! Better to read 'em than to write 'em. 

In all seriousness, (and more in response to Michael), as my first ever game (RL or Forums) is into day 3 (Mafia-II), I've learned 3 big things:

The "I'm new" argument, doesn't work so well. The game is pretty straight forward. Don't read too much into hard strategy. This game is about instinct and constant analyzing.

The only person who actually knows what their assigned role is, is the person themselves. All we can do as outside observers is take our best guess. But be aware of how and WHAT somebody who is accused is saying. Because if they are innocent, they were working with that piece of information the whole time.

Lastly, people like to make strawman cases. It's the best way early to nettle people. Like calling you out for bandwagoning. At this point, it really isn't an issue, as you've noted. But never get defensive! Defensive play feels negative, and will just bring more/harsher criticism, often unwarranted.

Oh, and DON'T lie. Town or Mafia, that'll get you lynched real quick. Everything you post can be cross-referenced with what you posted before. People won't let you slide.

Ok, done writing "Galzria's tips to Mafia". 

[yuma]

Wow, quick post since I am at work and can't spend too much time.

Not really sure what to say other than I have been busy with school, but that isn't super likely to change.

I will certainly try to post more and be more active, but I don't have all day to be on the forum. That was one of my main apprehensions about joining the game, but felt that I would be alright as some said they wanted the game to be less wordy than the other two Mafia games currently going.

I too am a bit surprised by VOTES?! Suspicions make sense, but votes? I guess it makes sense if the idea was to get me to respond. But I think I would have responded either way.

Current status:
Suspicious: No one
Not suspicious: no one
Vote: None

I'll try to get back on after work, but I can't make any guarantees.

[O]

I did this in the first game and I guess i'll do this again. Voting ATM really is inconsequential and I find it amusing that people are so surprised at votes already occurring.

I will vote for the person whose number corresponds to the seconds digit on the timestamp IFF they have a reasonable chance of being lynched and no mafia clearly screwed up.

Galzria   0
michaeljb   1
jotheonah   2
Morgrim7   3
MrEevee   4
Dsell   5
Robz   6
Voltgloss  7
eHalcyon   8
Captain_Frisk   9
def   -bye
yuma   -bye

[O]

VOTE: MORGRIM

[def]

I did this in the first game and I guess i'll do this again. Voting ATM really is inconsequential and I find it amusing that people are so surprised at votes already occurring.

I will vote for the person whose number corresponds to the seconds digit on the timestamp IFF they have a reasonable chance of being lynched and no mafia clearly screwed up.

Galzria   0
michaeljb   1
jotheonah   2
Morgrim7   3
MrEevee   4
Dsell   5
Robz   6
Voltgloss  7
eHalcyon   8
Captain_Frisk   9
def   -bye
yuma   -bye

What do you mean, bye? I demand to me treated equally. You could use the seconds modulo 12 I guess.

[michaeljb]

Voting ATM really is inconsequential and I find it amusing that people are so surprised at votes already occurring.

The "I'm new" argument, doesn't work so well. The game is pretty straight forward. Don't read too much into hard strategy. This game is about instinct and constant analyzing.

Eh, Voltgloss was responding to my second vote like it was dangerous, talking about how quickly further bandwagoning could happen, I was guessing experience might tell someone that (ie they've seen it happen numerous times with poor results). Like O, I don't really see the harm at this point.

But never get defensive! Defensive play feels negative, and will just bring more/harsher criticism, often unwarranted.

I understand this, but I certainly don't want to ignore it when someone is suspicious of me and has questions they want answered. I guess there's a fine line between appropriately answering questions and being too defensive.

[michaeljb]

I will certainly try to post more and be more active, but I don't have all day to be on the forum.

Fair enough, and probably a good thing in general to not be tied to the compy 

Unvote

[Galzria]

I'm still waiting on Voltgloss to respond to my suspicions that this "work" thing is just a big rouse. He's hiding something I tell ya! Mark my words! 

[eHalcyon]

I did this in the first game and I guess i'll do this again. Voting ATM really is inconsequential and I find it amusing that people are so surprised at votes already occurring.

I will vote for the person whose number corresponds to the seconds digit on the timestamp IFF they have a reasonable chance of being lynched and no mafia clearly screwed up.

Galzria   0
michaeljb   1
jotheonah   2
Morgrim7   3
MrEevee   4
Dsell   5
Robz   6
Voltgloss  7
eHalcyon   8
Captain_Frisk   9
def   -bye
yuma   -bye

Just to clarify -- you mean the second digit of the seconds on your own post?  So... you vote Morgrim?  Nice way to randomize, ha.

And I guess def and yuma got byes for being quiet?  I was wondering how you made the order of the list, but it looks like you just took the list from Captain_Frisk's post of post counts.

[Dsell]

What's this?! We were having a perfectly lovely conversation about avatars and begging for twigs, and now people are suddenly calling for a hanging??    What a mad world we live in!

Seriously though, I'm glad to see more substantive posts! I do hope we can hear a little more from the quieter ones, and it doesn't seem to me like throwing a couple votes out early is putting us in too much danger of an early hammer. It seems like a terribly obvious mafia move to throw 2 or 3 bandwagon votes on a person in the first round to bring the hammer down. Nobody wants to actually lynch right now, we just want strong reactions. And strong reactions are good because a mafia player might be more likely to slip if they have to really defend themselves.

[Eevee]

ha, our votes worked, finally some real discussion!

my (and i assumed frisks's as well) point was just to vote for someone to create some tension and discussion. as michaeljb noted, getting seven people to vote feels sort of far away anyways. on a slightly different subject, am i wrong to think that unless someone does something really suspicious, the first to get up to 5 votes or so (so to a reasonable risk of getting lynched) isnt really a good lynch at all? because mafia is probably going to bandwagon if some innocent townie starts to get like any votes at all so at this point a townie is actually far more likely to get voted on than a mafia?

@voltgloss, as i said earlier, we got to get the ball rolling somehow and my strategy even worked, i got yuma to sort of defend himself even though he didnt really say much. by the way, voltgloss seems to be an awesome guy to have around, really good and insightful posts.

am i the only one who's really annoyed of O's voting behaviour? I mean, you really dont have enough faith in yourself to be able to make decisions better than 100% random? voting behaviour is probably the single greatest source of reads we are going to walk away with from day 1 and voting "random" just gives you a free pass of voting for town and blaming it was random if you are mafia. (you know, you could just pick a random "factor" that led to the guy you wanted to vote for anyways to clear yourself). I'm actually tempted to go ahead and vote for O but i dont want to be the guy who's voting for everyone and stuff so I'll refrain for the time being.

[def]

because mafia is probably going to bandwagon if some innocent townie starts to get like any votes at all so at this point a townie is actually far more likely to get voted on than a mafia?

Since the folks to cast the final votes are very suspicious of being mafia, I doubt that mafia would risk themselves by voting to get a quick kill.
I'd even go so far and say that mafia might vote each other, because with so many players, the risk of accidentally lynching one of their own is pretty low, and it reduces suspicion if one of them somehow is revealed to be mafia.

[Captain_Frisk]

am i the only one who's really annoyed of O's voting behaviour? I mean, you really dont have enough faith in yourself to be able to make decisions better than 100% random? voting behaviour is probably the single greatest source of reads we are going to walk away with from day 1 and voting "random" just gives you a free pass of voting for town and blaming it was random if you are mafia. (you know, you could just pick a random "factor" that led to the guy you wanted to vote for anyways to clear yourself). I'm actually tempted to go ahead and vote for O but i dont want to be the guy who's voting for everyone and stuff so I'll refrain for the time being.

Random voting didn't go over well in Mafia 1 either, but I can absolutely understand it.  As a town player, the only information you have is that you are not Mafia.  Everyone has an equally likely chance.  A pure random lynch is better than no lynch at all - for the reasons outlined in Mafia 2 - AND one that the Mafia is going to be less than enthused about doing (for fear of accidentally random rolling one of their own!). 

It's also not like he's using this to break ties on a hammer vote, just a question of starting position.  Our decisions were nearly as arbitrary.

[Galzria]

am i the only one who's really annoyed of O's voting behaviour? I mean, you really dont have enough faith in yourself to be able to make decisions better than 100% random? voting behaviour is probably the single greatest source of reads we are going to walk away with from day 1 and voting "random" just gives you a free pass of voting for town and blaming it was random if you are mafia. (you know, you could just pick a random "factor" that led to the guy you wanted to vote for anyways to clear yourself). I'm actually tempted to go ahead and vote for O but i dont want to be the guy who's voting for everyone and stuff so I'll refrain for the time being.

Random voting didn't go over well in Mafia 1 either, but I can absolutely understand it.  As a town player, the only information you have is that you are not Mafia.  Everyone has an equally likely chance.  A pure random lynch is better than no lynch at all - for the reasons outlined in Mafia 2 - AND one that the Mafia is going to be less than enthused about doing (for fear of accidentally random rolling one of their own!). 

It's also not like he's using this to break ties on a hammer vote, just a question of starting position.  Our decisions were nearly as arbitrary.

The problem I have with it, is that... Well, yes. Our vote is likely going to be PRETTY random. However, stating that you choose randomly is a complete mislead. I mean, can you prove he didn't set it up to fall on a townie (assuming he were Mafia)? Of course not. So in that respect, there is no such thing as "a random lynch". If you believe someone is Mafia, make a case for it. Right or wrong at least you've done justice to yourself and other players in providing real perspective on how you think.

[Captain_Frisk]

am i the only one who's really annoyed of O's voting behaviour? I mean, you really dont have enough faith in yourself to be able to make decisions better than 100% random? voting behaviour is probably the single greatest source of reads we are going to walk away with from day 1 and voting "random" just gives you a free pass of voting for town and blaming it was random if you are mafia. (you know, you could just pick a random "factor" that led to the guy you wanted to vote for anyways to clear yourself). I'm actually tempted to go ahead and vote for O but i dont want to be the guy who's voting for everyone and stuff so I'll refrain for the time being.

Random voting didn't go over well in Mafia 1 either, but I can absolutely understand it.  As a town player, the only information you have is that you are not Mafia.  Everyone has an equally likely chance.  A pure random lynch is better than no lynch at all - for the reasons outlined in Mafia 2 - AND one that the Mafia is going to be less than enthused about doing (for fear of accidentally random rolling one of their own!). 

It's also not like he's using this to break ties on a hammer vote, just a question of starting position.  Our decisions were nearly as arbitrary.

The problem I have with it, is that... Well, yes. Our vote is likely going to be PRETTY random. However, stating that you choose randomly is a complete mislead. I mean, can you prove he didn't set it up to fall on a townie (assuming he were Mafia)? Of course not. So in that respect, there is no such thing as "a random lynch". If you believe someone is Mafia, make a case for it. Right or wrong at least you've done justice to yourself and other players in providing real perspective on how you think.

In the future O - its probably best to choose something that's reasonably random... Say - Number of Justin Bieber followers at the end of the day modded by 12  (as reported by http://twittercounter.com/justinbieber).

[jotheonah]

am i the only one who's really annoyed of O's voting behaviour? I mean, you really dont have enough faith in yourself to be able to make decisions better than 100% random? voting behaviour is probably the single greatest source of reads we are going to walk away with from day 1 and voting "random" just gives you a free pass of voting for town and blaming it was random if you are mafia. (you know, you could just pick a random "factor" that led to the guy you wanted to vote for anyways to clear yourself). I'm actually tempted to go ahead and vote for O but i dont want to be the guy who's voting for everyone and stuff so I'll refrain for the time being.

Random voting didn't go over well in Mafia 1 either, but I can absolutely understand it.  As a town player, the only information you have is that you are not Mafia.  Everyone has an equally likely chance.  A pure random lynch is better than no lynch at all - for the reasons outlined in Mafia 2 - AND one that the Mafia is going to be less than enthused about doing (for fear of accidentally random rolling one of their own!). 

It's also not like he's using this to break ties on a hammer vote, just a question of starting position.  Our decisions were nearly as arbitrary.

The problem I have with it, is that... Well, yes. Our vote is likely going to be PRETTY random. However, stating that you choose randomly is a complete mislead. I mean, can you prove he didn't set it up to fall on a townie (assuming he were Mafia)? Of course not. So in that respect, there is no such thing as "a random lynch". If you believe someone is Mafia, make a case for it. Right or wrong at least you've done justice to yourself and other players in providing real perspective on how you think.

I have a totally different problem with that, namely that we could all say "Yes, O is wise and his method is sound, let us all vote for his randomly selected townie and get this lynch over with." At which point, the whole point of the quote-unquote random Day 1 lynch - generating discussion - would be defeated.  Or we could each set up our own random number generators and, in all likelihood, lynch no one. But there's no scenario in which your random number generator is actually helpful to the town in any way.

[Galzria]

am i the only one who's really annoyed of O's voting behaviour? I mean, you really dont have enough faith in yourself to be able to make decisions better than 100% random? voting behaviour is probably the single greatest source of reads we are going to walk away with from day 1 and voting "random" just gives you a free pass of voting for town and blaming it was random if you are mafia. (you know, you could just pick a random "factor" that led to the guy you wanted to vote for anyways to clear yourself). I'm actually tempted to go ahead and vote for O but i dont want to be the guy who's voting for everyone and stuff so I'll refrain for the time being.

Random voting didn't go over well in Mafia 1 either, but I can absolutely understand it.  As a town player, the only information you have is that you are not Mafia.  Everyone has an equally likely chance.  A pure random lynch is better than no lynch at all - for the reasons outlined in Mafia 2 - AND one that the Mafia is going to be less than enthused about doing (for fear of accidentally random rolling one of their own!). 

It's also not like he's using this to break ties on a hammer vote, just a question of starting position.  Our decisions were nearly as arbitrary.

The problem I have with it, is that... Well, yes. Our vote is likely going to be PRETTY random. However, stating that you choose randomly is a complete mislead. I mean, can you prove he didn't set it up to fall on a townie (assuming he were Mafia)? Of course not. So in that respect, there is no such thing as "a random lynch". If you believe someone is Mafia, make a case for it. Right or wrong at least you've done justice to yourself and other players in providing real perspective on how you think.

I have a totally different problem with that, namely that we could all say "Yes, O is wise and his method is sound, let us all vote for his randomly selected townie and get this lynch over with." At which point, the whole point of the quote-unquote random Day 1 lynch - generating discussion - would be defeated.  Or we could each set up our own random number generators and, in all likelihood, lynch no one. But there's no scenario in which your random number generator is actually helpful to the town in any way.

Oh, I agree with that completely as well. I think our end conclusion is pretty much the same in either case though: It's highly unhelpful to the town.

[O]

the quote unquote random lynch isn't beneficial because it creates discussion. It's beneficial because it's statistically better for us to lynch the first day assuming random picks.

[eHalcyon]

the quote unquote random lynch isn't beneficial because it creates discussion. It's beneficial because it's statistically better for us to lynch the first day assuming random picks.

Is this true for all group sizes?  I remember seeing the math in either Mafia I or II.  I think there was also a complaint that it didn't factor in town power roles, but that if it did it will still be in favour of day 1 lynch.

[yuma]

I'm mostly checking in because apparently absence breeds suspicion--why is that such a hard word to spell? Every time I type it I have to use the auto correct--but I am not seeing much of anything that seems "suspicious." I understand the need to get a discussion going, but everything that has been said thus far seems to be complete speculation and not really worth commenting on... 

I'm still waiting on Voltgloss to respond to my suspicions that this "work" thing is just a big rouse. He's hiding something I tell ya! Mark my words! 

I did find this a bit off. Just adding a smiley face doesn't make it any better. Emoticons are too often used as a shield to deflect real meaning in a conversation. 

Status:
Suspicious: Galzria--just a little bit
Not suspicious: no one
Vote: None

[Morgrim7]

Sorry I have been gone...
Randomizer voting, huh O? Hmmm not a bad idea, until we find out more..
Some suspicions...
Suspicious: Galzria, maybe some others
Not Suspicious: None
Vote: Nobody...yet...