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[Insomniac]

THERE WILL BE A DISCUSSION THREAD FOR THIS MAFIA. IF YOU DO NOT WANT OTHERS DISCUSSING THIS MAFIA DO NOT PARTICIPATE. YOU MAY NOT POST IN THIS THREAD WHEN DEAD WE ASK THAT YOU DO NOT READ THIS THREAD WHILE ALIVE THOUGH THIS WILL NOT BE ENFORCED


ALIVE
O
defAxxle
Dsell
eHalcyon

DEAD
Galzria - Vanilla Townie - Lynched Day 1
Robz888 - Vanilla Townie - Killed in Night 1
Captain_Frisk - Vanilla Townie - Killed in Night 1
jotheonah - Serial Killer - Lynched Day 2
michaeljb - Vanilla Townie - Killed in Night 2
Morgrim7 - Vanilla Townie - Lynched Day 3
Voltgloss - Mafia Goon - Lynched Day 4
yuma - Mafia Rolecop - Lynched Day 5
Eevee - Mafia Goon - Lynched Day 6


Its been a while since one started and with people getting eliminated from the first 2 I thought I would offer a third game of Mafia to the first 9 that attempt to sign up (assuming theres enough interest). Here are the rules and the potential roles (blatantly stolen from Mafia II).

As a twist on the first 2 IF 10 people sign up we will include the SERIAL Killer role

Mafia Ruleset

Game Rules:

General Gameplay and Etiquette:
1. You may not quote private Moderator-supplied information (either real or fabricated) of any kind. Paraphrasing (for role claims, etc.) is acceptable.
2. There is to be NO personal communication outside of the forum postings unless your role PM specifically allows it. Mafia members may communicate at night and during the confirmation stage.
3. If you have a role with a Night action your choices are due to me by the posted deadline. If I do not receive your choice via PM by the posted deadline you will forfeit your actions. In case of multiple submissions, the last valid one before the deadline will be used.
4. Roles with Night actions will not be able to submit an action on Night 0 (i.e. during the confirmation stage).
5. Any player with a Night action may instead submit a “No Action” PM to let the Mod know that you do not want to perform your expected action that Night phase.
6. As a general rule you should aim for one post every 48 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving.

Voting, Deadlines, and Player Death:
1. A simple majority (rounded up) of all living members must agree on one person for a lynch to occur prior to deadline.
2. Once you have reached a simple majority no further unvoting will change someone’s fate. Further votes will also be ignored.
3. Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until I post a death scene; all players including the one who was lynched may continue to post during twilight.
4. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName. Votes will NOT be counted if they are not bold! Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous.
5. Please submit vote revocations as either Unvote: PlayerName or Unvote. Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.
6. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority of these vote types are required to send the game to Night phase without a lynch.
7. This game will have 1 week deadlines. If a player or No Lynch does not have a simple majority at deadline, no lynch will occur, and the game will go into night.
8. Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post. This means that you do not even get a “Bah” post. The dead in this game are silent.
9. Do not edit or delete posts. We don't want some players having more information than others.  If you want to clarify posts, feel free to double post.

Miscellaneous/Mechanics:
1. Bold, blue text is reserved for the Mod. No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
2. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please PM the Mod privately. Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread.
3. The Mod may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently. Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed. These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. Please bold all requests to the Mod so that they don’t get missed.
5. Prods of missing players will be issued automatically after 72 hours of no activity or upon request after 48 hours of no activity. A prodded player has 48 hours to respond or risks replacement. A player who has been prodded 3 times is subject to replacement without further notice.
6. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, up to and including a Modkill.
7. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period please post a notice to that effect in the thread. Treat this game as a commitment. Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging.


The Golden Rule:

Please remember that this is a game and your main objective is to have fun! Be considerate of each other, don’t get personal, and enjoy the game.

Game Setup
Game Setup information:

As there have been requests for more than 9 players the roles will be determined upon game commencement. I am open to suggestions for roles, and player count

The setup used for this newbie game is one of the ones given below. The setup is randomly determined, but is one of the 6 given here:
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Rolecop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Doctor.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Rolecop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Jailkeeper.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Rolecop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Doctor, Jailkeeper.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Rolecop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Rolecop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Jailkeeper.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Rolecop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Doctor.

If 10 people sign up: 1 Serial Killer

There will always be two mafia players and seven town players.

Here are all the role PMs that can be in the game:

-----------------------------------------

Mafia Goon
Welcome to Mafia II!

You are a Mafia, a Mafia Goon.

Your partner is __________, a Mafia Rolecop. You make speak with them during the pre-game and during the night phases.
(Any other communication outside of the thread with any other players is prohibited.)

Each night, you or your partner may send me the name of a player you would like to kill.

You win if the Mafia comprise at least half the town, or if nothing can prevent the same from happening.

-----------------------------------------

Mafia Rolecop
Welcome to Mafia II!

You are a Mafia, a Mafia Rolecop.

Your partner is __________, a Mafia Goon. You make speak with them during the pre-game and during the night phases.
(Any other communication outside of the thread with any other players is prohibited.)

Each night, you or your partner may send me the name of a player you would like to kill.

Each night, you may also send me the name of a fellow player. You will be told their role name.

You win if the Mafia comprise at least half the town, or if nothing can prevent the same from happening.

-----------------------------------------

Town Doc
Welcome to Mafia II!

You are a Townie, a Town Doc.

Each night, you may send me the name of a fellow player. You will protect that player from death.

You win when all of the Mafia are dead.

-----------------------------------------

Town Cop
Welcome to Mafia II!

You are a Townie, a Town Cop.

Each night, you may send me the name of a fellow player. You will be informed if that player is town or mafia.

You win when all of the Mafia are dead.

-----------------------------------------

Town Jailkeeper
Welcome to Mafia II!

You are a Townie, a Town Jailkeeper.

Each night, you may send me the name of a fellow player. That player will be protected from death, and will perform no night actions.

You win when all of the Mafia are dead.

-----------------------------------------

Town Vanilla
Welcome to Mafia II!

You are a Townie, a Vanilla Townie.

You win when all of the Mafia are dead.

-----------------------------------------

Serial Killer
Welcome to Mafia II!

You are a psychopath, a Serial Killer.

Each night, you may send me the name of a player you would like to kill.

You win everyone else is dead.

-----------------------------------------


TO CLARIFY, I AM NOT A MODERATOR OF F.DS IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.  IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS GAME, I AM MODERATING THAT THE RULES ARE FOLLOWED AND HIDDEN ACTIONS ARE COMPLETED PROPERLY.

[Robz888]

Well, I will of course play, with a couple caveats:

I won't feel bad if you reject my application because I'm too obsessed
If theory has a problem with Mafia continuing obviously I won't do it
I would prefer to actually include more than 9 players this time, if there is interest for that

[Insomniac]

Well, I will of course play, with a couple caveats:

I won't feel bad if you reject my application because I'm too obsessed
If theory has a problem with Mafia continuing obviously I won't do it
I would prefer to actually include more than 9 players this time, if there is interest for that

I am of course fine with more than 9 and wouldn't want to run it if theory opposed. SINCE he gave us a dedicated forum for games that does not show up in recent form posts i suspect he has no issue.  But if he asks me to not run this I will cancel.

Robz of course you can play.

What number would you be happier with than 9 and do you have suggestions for Roles

[Galzria]

Please count me in as well

Edit (omg, I've forgotten what one feels like!)

Same caveats as Robz has.

[WanderingWinder]

I'm tentatively down to play, I'd prefer to have more than 9, and I'd prefer to do it... elsewhwere. Off these forums. But eh.

[O]

I'd like to sign up!

The more the merrier.
Off-forums or On-forums is OK.
Robz is starting to scare me.

[Thisisnotasmile]

Not committing myslef yet, but if I'm dead in mafia I before this fills up I'd be tempted to join just to make some more enemies. And I'd much prefer a game with no size limits to allow anyone who wanted to play to be able to.

[theory]

TO CLARIFY, I AM NOT A MODERATOR OF F.DS IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.  IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS GAME, I AM MODERATING THAT THE RULES ARE FOLLOWED AND HIDDEN ACTIONS ARE COMPLETED PROPERLY.

This made me laugh.

I don't have any objection to continuing to run Mafia games here.  But I'd like to be able to have a discussion topic for Mafia III, with the condition that everyone spoilers their posts.  Is that all right with you all?

[Galzria]

TO CLARIFY, I AM NOT A MODERATOR OF F.DS IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.  IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS GAME, I AM MODERATING THAT THE RULES ARE FOLLOWED AND HIDDEN ACTIONS ARE COMPLETED PROPERLY.

This made me laugh.

I don't have any objection to continuing to run Mafia games here.  But I'd like to be able to have a discussion topic for Mafia III, with the condition that everyone spoilers their posts.  Is that all right with you all?

I have stated in the past that I am fine with it. I believe a few others share this opinion, however I know that some are wary as well. Eh, up to you guys. I don't mind though.

[Insomniac]

It doesn't bother me the reason I played in Mafia II at all is because I think the community here is pretty solid. I don't suspect that people would cheat. I mean they are playing a game for fun.

Also, theory glad to have you weigh in, and yea I completely stole that part of the post from Axxle lol. He had it so I figured it might just be a good thing to have in general *shrug*

[theory]

I didn't see it for Mafia II!    I must have skipped over it.

How about this: let's make this game a test run.  Only sign up if you're willing to be the guinea pig for a game with a public yet spoilered discussion topic, and we can all discuss the experience afterwards.  If it wasn't a good experience then we'll scrap it for future Mafia's.

[theory]

Also, I'd like to have some clarity on how night actions work.  In what order do effects resolve?  If I am murdered by Mafia, do I still get my night action?  If the Jailkeeper jails the Cop and the Mafia murders the jailkeeper, does the Cop get "no effect"?

[WanderingWinder]

TO CLARIFY, I AM NOT A MODERATOR OF F.DS IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.  IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS GAME, I AM MODERATING THAT THE RULES ARE FOLLOWED AND HIDDEN ACTIONS ARE COMPLETED PROPERLY.

This made me laugh.

I don't have any objection to continuing to run Mafia games here.  But I'd like to be able to have a discussion topic for Mafia III, with the condition that everyone spoilers their posts.  Is that all right with you all?

Upvote upvote upvote.

[Insomniac]

Also, I'd like to have some clarity on how night actions work.  In what order do effects resolve?  If I am murdered by Mafia, do I still get my night action?  If the Jailkeeper jails the Cop and the Mafia murders the jailkeeper, does the Cop get "no effect"?

These are actually up to the mod so I will clarify

1) In what order do effects resolve?  If I am murdered by Mafia, do I still get my night action? This would depend on the night action. If its  a cop style action does it really matter? If its a preventetive effect Jailkeeper doctor. Then yes. However since you can't target yourself with those abilities its not relevant unless there are multiple night kills

2) If the Jailkeeper jails the Cop and the Mafia murders the jailkeeper, does the Cop get "no effect"? Yes.

I will attempt to resolve all night actions simultaneously to the best of my abilities

[O]

TO CLARIFY, I AM NOT A MODERATOR OF F.DS IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.  IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS GAME, I AM MODERATING THAT THE RULES ARE FOLLOWED AND HIDDEN ACTIONS ARE COMPLETED PROPERLY.

This made me laugh.

I don't have any objection to continuing to run Mafia games here.  But I'd like to be able to have a discussion topic for Mafia III, with the condition that everyone spoilers their posts.  Is that all right with you all?

Upvote upvote upvote.

This, with my pleas for the condition once again... no dead mafia, no dead mafia, no dead mafia. Then if even people can't resist the theoretical "gain" from reading it really is quite minimal.

[def]

I'm in if it's ok that I never played before.

[Insomniac]

Also, I'd like to have some clarity on how night actions work.  In what order do effects resolve?  If I am murdered by Mafia, do I still get my night action?  If the Jailkeeper jails the Cop and the Mafia murders the jailkeeper, does the Cop get "no effect"?

These are actually up to the mod so I will clarify

1) In what order do effects resolve?  If I am murdered by Mafia, do I still get my night action? This would depend on the night action. If its  a cop style action does it really matter? If its a preventetive effect Jailkeeper doctor. Then yes. However since you can't target yourself with those abilities its not relevant unless there are multiple night kills

2) If the Jailkeeper jails the Cop and the Mafia murders the jailkeeper, does the Cop get "no effect"? Yes.

I will attempt to resolve all night actions simultaneously to the best of my abilities

Actually I found this I'll follow this.

Def: Absolutely

[O]

Few things:

1) As written, Cop investigating Serial Killer returns townie. I actually like it better this way though.
2) "Sane cop". If anyone ever tries to introduce Insane cop into a forum mafia game here I will hunt them down and kill them.

[Insomniac]

TO CLARIFY, I AM NOT A MODERATOR OF F.DS IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.  IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS GAME, I AM MODERATING THAT THE RULES ARE FOLLOWED AND HIDDEN ACTIONS ARE COMPLETED PROPERLY.

This made me laugh.

I don't have any objection to continuing to run Mafia games here.  But I'd like to be able to have a discussion topic for Mafia III, with the condition that everyone spoilers their posts.  Is that all right with you all?

Upvote upvote upvote.

This, with my pleas for the condition once again... no dead mafia, no dead mafia, no dead mafia. Then if even people can't resist the theoretical "gain" from reading it really is quite minimal.

whats the condition?

[O]

TO CLARIFY, I AM NOT A MODERATOR OF F.DS IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.  IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS GAME, I AM MODERATING THAT THE RULES ARE FOLLOWED AND HIDDEN ACTIONS ARE COMPLETED PROPERLY.

This made me laugh.

I don't have any objection to continuing to run Mafia games here.  But I'd like to be able to have a discussion topic for Mafia III, with the condition that everyone spoilers their posts.  Is that all right with you all?

Upvote upvote upvote.

This, with my pleas for the condition once again... no dead mafia, no dead mafia, no dead mafia. Then if even people can't resist the theoretical "gain" from reading it really is quite minimal.

whats the condition?

Sometimes what's in my head when i'm typing doesn't exactly come out...

No mafia players who are dead posting in the discussion thread, revealing info. 

[theory]

Does that restriction include vanilla townies?  Technically they have the same knowledge as any random townie, but I think they should also be restricted, because as anyone who reads the Mafia I quicktopic knows, dead vanilla townies are somewhat biased.

[Insomniac]

How about no dead players post in general? This is a request only as I can't enforce it and dead players are not in the game so I can't do anything game related to them

[theory]

How about no dead players post in general? This is a request only as I can't enforce it and dead players are not in the game so I can't do anything game related to them

That's basically the gist of my and O's post, and I can enforce it

[Insomniac]

Sounds good to me Ill update the initial post to have info on this

[Dsell]

I'm pretty interested in this, I've been enjoying following the other mafia games (well, just one of them now) though I've never played forum mafia before. The thing is, I spend a lot of time on the forum and it's been tough at times for me to even keep up with all the reading during really active times. So I can only imagine trying to keep up with other mafia games, my own mafia game, trying to formulate responses with lots of analysis, keeping up with, you know, Dominion strategy, and trying to play on isotropic. Oh yeah, and real life.

But I think I'm up for a challenge.

And yeah, Robz is insane.

[Voltgloss]

Insomniac, I think an errant bracketed s has made half the intro post struck-through.

[O]

Insomniac, I think an errant bracketed s has made half the intro post struck-through.

He's changing the setup as we'll likely have more than 9-10 players.

[Voltgloss]

Insomniac, I think an errant bracketed s has made half the intro post struck-through.

He's changing the setup as we'll likely have more than 9-10 players.

Oh, my error.  Sorry!

[theory]

The thing is, I spend a lot of time on the forum and it's been tough at times for me to even keep up with all the reading during really active times.

Rest assured, you are at least 16 days away from cracking the top 10, and well over a month away from topping WanderingWinder.

[Dsell]

The thing is, I spend a lot of time on the forum and it's been tough at times for me to even keep up with all the reading during really active times.

Rest assured, you are at least 16 days away from cracking the top 10, and well over a month away from topping WanderingWinder.

I'd be comforted except that I've only been here 2 and a half months. XD

[Galzria]

The thing is, I spend a lot of time on the forum and it's been tough at times for me to even keep up with all the reading during really active times.

Rest assured, you are at least 16 days away from cracking the top 10, and well over a month away from topping WanderingWinder.

I'd be comforted except that I've only been here 2 and a half months. XD

Weak. I've been here two weeks less, and have over 11 days logged!
...
Oh. You mean I SHOULDNT be proud of that?

[Morgrim7]

Well, with my death in 2, I will play. I will try no to kill myself again. 
But yeah, I would love to

[WanderingWinder]

The thing is, I spend a lot of time on the forum and it's been tough at times for me to even keep up with all the reading during really active times.

Rest assured, you are at least 16 days away from cracking the top 10, and well over a month away from topping WanderingWinder.

SOMEONE IS CHALLENGING ME???!!! WHO DARES???

In all seriousness, I remember passing theory and thinking that was a big deal. That was in the... 200s?

[Dsell]

The thing is, I spend a lot of time on the forum and it's been tough at times for me to even keep up with all the reading during really active times.

Rest assured, you are at least 16 days away from cracking the top 10, and well over a month away from topping WanderingWinder.

I'd be comforted except that I've only been here 2 and a half months. XD

Weak. I've been here two weeks less, and have over 11 days logged!
...
Oh. You mean I SHOULDNT be proud of that?

WHAT. I take it ALL back and feel much better.

[Dsell]

The thing is, I spend a lot of time on the forum and it's been tough at times for me to even keep up with all the reading during really active times.

Rest assured, you are at least 16 days away from cracking the top 10, and well over a month away from topping WanderingWinder.

SOMEONE IS CHALLENGING ME???!!! WHO DARES???

In all seriousness, I remember passing theory and thinking that was a big deal. That was in the... 200s?

I might be able to do it if I quit watching your videos and spent that time on the forum instead. 

Edit: ANYWAY MAFIA. I obviously don't spend as much time here as some.... ...but no matter! I am in.

[popsofctown]

Also, I'd like to have some clarity on how night actions work.  In what order do effects resolve?  If I am murdered by Mafia, do I still get my night action?  If the Jailkeeper jails the Cop and the Mafia murders the jailkeeper, does the Cop get "no effect"?

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Natural_Action_Resolution

Killing never stops people from performing actions, it happens at the end of the night, you could say.

Larger setups are generally better off closed.  That's where you don't tell the players in the game what roles are being used.  It's like Mafia I's 2 of 4, except instead of 12 possibilities explicitly defined there are a couple million possible in the mod's imagination. 
The major benefit to it is avoiding a situation where lots of vanilla townies get lynched and killed early on by happenstance, so halfway through the game optimal strategy becomes mass roleclaims, flooding the town with uniquely rolenamed confirmed innocents.

Might be a good idea to have me review a closed setup you plan on using, should that be the choice.  I don't plan on playing.

[Insomniac]

So we're up to 9 confirmed and 3 1 tentative for a max of 10 10 if all tentatives confirm. For the record this is the list I've seen

Confirmed
Robz
Galzria
O
def
Dsell
Morgrim7
Eevee
Captain_Frisk
michaeljb



Tentative
yuma
WanderingWinder
Thisisnotasmile




popsofctown: I will be taking you up on that offer. Thanks!

My thought is that I'll leave registration open for an additional 24 hours once we have 9 or 10 confirmed. With both Mafia I and II being in the night phase I suspect more people will have a chance to pop in here in the next 48. Once 9 or 10 are confirmed I will take all registrants that confirm in the 24 hour time space after that. (or as close to 24 hours as possible)

So those of you that are tentative please confirm or cancel your entrance so that I can have an accurate count

[Robz888]

It would be great if we could get up to 12 or 13 people. That's the number I usually play with IRL, and it's a lot of fun.

I don't mind if there are a lot of roles to choose from and it's random which ones you are using, but I think I would still like a list of all the possible roles for the game... It's up to you though!

I was browsing roles to see what would be fun things to play. This Serial Killer looks interesting. Might want to give him one free dodge from a night kill, though, as he looks hard to win with.

[Insomniac]

Its not entirely random which roles are using, I have a vague idea for every number of entrants.

Also I suspect that with the new way I proposed for entrants it will probably be 12+. but we could wait till There's 12 as well (From what I've seen 13 is the limit for non large games)

[Thisisnotasmile]

Serial killer is a TINAS role if ever there was one.

However, I am out of this game if there is going to be public discussion running alongside. Especially if that public discussion is going to be on these very forums and not hidden at all.

[Eevee]

Yeah I'll play! I'll be in Vegas until the 13th but posting drunk isnt prohibited so why not.

[michaeljb]

I'd like to play

[popsofctown]

Yeah I'll play! I'll be in Vegas until the 13th but posting drunk isnt prohibited so why not.

Drunkposting as mafia is undoubtedly risky.

[Kuildeous]

Yeah I'll play! I'll be in Vegas until the 13th but posting drunk isnt prohibited so why not.

Drunkposting as mafia is undoubtedly risky.

Or the greatest con ever!

[Eevee]

Yeah I'll play! I'll be in Vegas until the 13th but posting drunk isnt prohibited so why not.

Drunkposting as mafia is undoubtedly risky.

But I'm town!

[michaeljb]

However, I am out of this game if there is going to be public discussion running alongside. Especially if that public discussion is going to be on these very forums and not hidden at all.

I didn't actually have time to read the whole thread when I wanted to sign up, but like TINAS says, I don't want to play if the discussion is going to be on these forums; if a quicktopic thread is started and the link is only given out privately (like the Mafia I discussion) I'll have no problem with that.

eh, screw it I want to play, public discussion or not.

[Captain_Frisk]

I am a noob, but if there is room I'll play

Also - I am town

[Robz888]

I have absolutely no preference for how our game is discussed among non-players. But I do prefer to have as many people as possible playing, so if that's a sticking point for some people, I would meet their demands.

[Galzria]

Robz's point is well made. Especially in light of how Mafia-I and Mafia-II are playing out. They could honestly be two COMPLETELY separate games. So the more people from each (and outside observers) that we can include the better. Let's get both the "We hate and mistrust everyone!" (Mafia-I) crowd mixed in with the "Let's over analyze everything to death until we know nothing!" (Mafia-II) crowd together! The crazier the better imo. 

[jotheonah]

I shouldn't play another one... it makes me crazy and paranoid and is not going to be a good idea once I'm actually employed. On the other hand, I do want a chance to actually learn lessons from the ongoing train wreck that is Mafia II...

I guess I'll play.

[Voltgloss]

On the other hand, I do want a chance to actually learn lessons from the ongoing train wreck that is Mafia II...

I was on the fence about joining, but this comment decided me.  Because I couldn't agree more with it (as applied to myself).

So I'll play if there's room.  If not, well, them's the breaks.  Hell, I might even try my hand at moderating one of these after Mafia II ends.  We'll see!

[Robz888]

Hell, I might even try my hand at moderating one of these after Mafia II ends.  We'll see!

I'll be in for that one, too.

[Insomniac]

So we're up to 10 confirmed and 1 tentative for a max of 11 if all tentatives confirm. For the record this is the list I've seen

Confirmed
Robz
Galzria
O
def
Dsell
Morgrim7
Eevee
Captain_Frisk
Jotheonah
Voltgloss



Tentative
WanderingWinder

[michaeljb]

However, I am out of this game if there is going to be public discussion running alongside. Especially if that public discussion is going to be on these very forums and not hidden at all.

I didn't actually have time to read the whole thread when I wanted to sign up, but like TINAS says, I don't want to play if the discussion is going to be on these forums; if a quicktopic thread is started and the link is only given out privately (like the Mafia I discussion) I'll have no problem with that.

eh, screw it I want to play, public discussion or not.

I changed my mind :p

[Robz888]

Yay more players!

[Galzria]

However, I am out of this game if there is going to be public discussion running alongside. Especially if that public discussion is going to be on these very forums and not hidden at all.

I didn't actually have time to read the whole thread when I wanted to sign up, but like TINAS says, I don't want to play if the discussion is going to be on these forums; if a quicktopic thread is started and the link is only given out privately (like the Mafia I discussion) I'll have no problem with that.

eh, screw it I want to play, public discussion or not.

I changed my mind :p

Good man! 

[Voltgloss]

Fair warning:  while Mafia II is ongoing, I will be less active here than I was in the first two days of Mafia II.  (I'll certainly still BE active here, naturally.  No bozzballing for me!  ) 

[Insomniac]

We are now at 11 and 12 if Wandering Winder confirms. I will allow sign ups for 24 more hours then we will start

[eHalcyon]

Why not?  Actually, I can think of lots of reasons why not... but I'm in.

[WanderingWinder]

I'm out.

[yuma]

Likewise I've changed my mind... I will be in if you take me. If not that is ok.

[Robz888]

So we have 12? 12 would be awesomeness. You might consider having 3 mafia. Or 2 and the Serial Killer.

[Eevee]

So we have 12? 12 would be awesomeness. You might consider having 3 mafia. Or 2 and the Serial Killer.

3 mafia sounds better to me. (Then again I've only ever played face to face mafia with doctor, cop, mafia and townies, all these other roles sound oh so confusing and hard.)

[michaeljb]

So we have 12? 12 would be awesomeness. You might consider having 3 mafia. Or 2 and the Serial Killer.

3 mafia sounds better to me. (Then again I've only ever played face to face mafia with doctor, cop, mafia and townies, all these other roles sound oh so confusing and hard.)

I've also only played IRL, same roles, but I'm excited to try these other roles

[Insomniac]

To be started later today I will be running my idea by pops for roles

[Galzria]

Ooh, I hope I'm a serial killer. Sounds unscrupulous. Free kill every night.. nobodies best interests but my own... Killer of Mafia and Town alike... Answers to no one...
    

[michaeljb]

To be started later today I will be running my idea by pops for roles

Hmmm, in my time zone we are now past the day of this post, but have not started yet...how very suspicious. Can never trust insomniacs (see Fight Club and The Machinist for further evidence of this).

haha I'm just excited to get started and getting a little impatient I suppose

edit: on another note, I've been reading a bit about other roles that exist and the one that has me the most intrigued is the rat--works with the mafia, but only wins if town wins. Seems like it would be very interesting to play, but also very difficult.

[Galzria]

I think he's waiting to hear from Popsofctown to review his setup. 

[Robz888]

I think he's waiting to hear from Popsofctown to review his setup. 

I know. It's making me weep too that the game isn't going yet. On the other hand, it's important for pops to review. What if Insomniac tried to include the Suicide Bomber? I played with the Suicide Bomber once. The Suicide Bomber is a townsperson that kills someone as soon as he is killed. He is a very vengeful townsperson.

[Insomniac]

To clarify I am indeed waiting for pops to review. And I will say there is no insane cop nor suicide bomber in my proposed set ups. I didn't feel like making people hate the mod

[eHalcyon]

edit: on another note, I've been reading a bit about other roles that exist and the one that has me the most intrigued is the rat--works with the mafia, but only wins if town wins. Seems like it would be very interesting to play, but also very difficult.

Wait, what's to prevent the rat from revealing on day 1 and just saying "these are all the Mafia"?  If he wins with the town, there's no reason not to do that...

[jotheonah]

Well, because they might not believe him. Claiming is always tricky business.

[Thisisnotasmile]

What incentive for claiming Rat would anybody have, other than the Rat?

[jotheonah]

A mafioso might claim rat to lend support to his claim that X,Y, and Z are mafia, of course.

[Voltgloss]

Then if a Rat claims day 1, isn't the solution to just lynch the Rat?  If they're the Rat, you find that out after the lynch, and then lynch the identified Mafiosi on the following three days.  If they're Mafia, well, you lynched Mafia.

[Galzria]

In light of Captain Frisk opening Mafia-I for Popsofctown (who is away on vacation), you may want to just roll Insomniac. Unless you really want his input, in which case I'm not sure how long we'll be waiting in limbo.

[Insomniac]

Roles PM's out. If you didn't get yours PM me. For now please do not talk as we will allow the Mafia until 5pm PDT to talk strategy.

There are 13 people playing.

Robz
Galzria
O
def
Dsell
Morgrim7
Eevee
michaeljb
Captain_Frisk
jotheonah
Voltgloss
eHalcyon
yuma

[michaeljb]

So with all the crossed out text in the OP, I just want to ask about the roles for clarification...is it correct that there are 2 Mafia members, 1 Serial Killer, and 10 Townies? And then for the townies, power roles handed out with the same 2 of 4 system used in Mafia I? Or do we not get to know any details beyond our own roles?

[Insomniac]

You walking around your homeless shelter that you all moved into when times got tough. While begging for twigs one day you saw that Insomniac had been stabbed with a branch in the back. He lay dead.

Day 1 has begun.


michaeljb - Its closed you don't get to know what the roles are

[Galzria]

  Didn't like that Insomniac guy anyway. *Searches his pockets*. Damn. I thought he had a food stamp on him. Looks like he was cleaned out before I arrived. 

[jotheonah]

So in light of the flavor, does that make our town ... a SHANTY TOWN?

[Galzria]

Insomniac:

We *DO* get confirmation on the number of Mafia though, correct? I was led to believe we would have 3. Knowing how many there are could change how we look at votes (knowing how far from a potential hammer we are, etc). I understand if you can't tell us if there is a Serial Killer or not (SO TOWN, ASSUME THERE IS) however.

[michaeljb]

Insomniac - Thanks, good to know.

Galzria - You say he was cleaned out already, did someone already take that branch? I was thinking a branch would be nice decor for my corner of the shelter, but who can find a branch these days?

jonah - I'd sure say so.

So the killers aren't fans of people who don't/can't sleep at night...hmm...

[Galzria]

So the killers aren't fans of people who don't/can't sleep at night...hmm...

Or maybe they ARE people who can't sleep at night, and Insomniac was getting in their way. <Looks at Robz>

[jotheonah]

With so much overlap with Mafia II it's gonna be hard for those of us still alive to keep each other's behavior straight and separate in the two games. I think out of fairness to the new people we should try not to reference the other games unless it's really pertinent.

[Morgrim7]

Ahh, here we are again, Robz, Galzria, Voltgloss, and jotheonah.

[Eevee]

This closed game thing sounds really complicated, especially not knowing how big the mafia is. If they wont tell us that, we really need to coordinate carefully before casting pretty much any but the very first votes, right? Cant think of any power roles that would be too crucial to know about.. not until someone starts claiming them anyways?

If I'm wrong on the latter point, should someone who has played these kinds of games before inform us who havent what kind of roles are possible/usual?

//Fwiw regarding behaviour in other games, I've read most of mafia 1 but nothing of mafia 2.

[Galzria]

With so much overlap with Mafia II it's gonna be hard for those of us still alive to keep each other's behavior straight and separate in the two games. I think out of fairness to the new people we should try not to reference the other games unless it's really pertinent.

Oh I agree. Same holds for the Mafia-I people. My comment wasn't a reference to Mafia-II, rather to the fact that Robz is always up late and does a lot of his posting at night.

[Galzria]

Ahh, here we are again, Robz, Galzria, Voltgloss, and jotheonah.

I know! It's great! Most of the gang from Mafia-II (or the "Over-Analyze To Death Group"), AND many from Mafia-I (The "Point-Fingers And Attack Everyone Group")! Wheee! This should be entertaining at least.

(Note: The above feelings about each group are my own, and may not be shared by others.  )

[Voltgloss]

Ahh, here we are again, Robz, Galzria, Voltgloss, and jotheonah.

MORGRIM IS MAFIA BECAUSE IT WORKED SO WELL THE LAST TIME oh wait

In all seriousness, the closed setup - and the vast array of roles that could be out there - leave me a bit at sea.  I mean, just taking a look at what the MafiaScum wiki calls the most common roles:

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Roles

and my head is already spinning.  Vigilante Townies who can kill at night?  Bulletproof Serial Killers?  Millers who are innocent but get investigated as mafia?  Godfathers who are mafia but get investigated as innocent?  Yeesh.

Has anyone here played before in a large, closed game like this?  Any general comments from those experiences?

And Insomniac, here's a rules question:  When someone dies, is their alignment and/or role revealed?  (That's how it is in Mafia II, but I don't know how universal that is for forum Mafia.)

[Galzria]

This closed game thing sounds really complicated, especially not knowing how big the mafia is. If they wont tell us that, we really need to coordinate carefully before casting pretty much any but the very first votes, right? Cant think of any power roles that would be too crucial to know about.. not until someone starts claiming them anyways?

If I'm wrong on the latter point, should someone who has played these kinds of games before inform us who havent what kind of roles are possible/usual?

//Fwiw regarding behaviour in other games, I've read most of mafia 1 but nothing of mafia 2.

I'm hoping to know at least how many Mafia there are. But if not, we can roll with it. Assume 3, and if it's 2, great. I doubt VERY much you would see 4 in a 13 player game. I would also assume the worst though, and that there IS a Serial Killer. So that leaves 9 Town, 1 Serial Killer, 3 Mafia. As for roles, I would hope there were 2, but that is random, and we can't really know.

If you were to read Mafia-II, you would see that while we are doing much worse than Mafia-I, we are all much nicer about it.  So maybe it's not such a good thing. I'm addicted though (much like Robz), and follow every post on each of them.

[Galzria]

Ahh, here we are again, Robz, Galzria, Voltgloss, and jotheonah.

MORGRIM IS MAFIA BECAUSE IT WORKED SO WELL THE LAST TIME oh wait

In all seriousness, the closed setup - and the vast array of roles that could be out there - leave me a bit at sea.  I mean, just taking a look at what the MafiaScum wiki calls the most common roles:

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Roles

and my head is already spinning.  Vigilante Townies who can kill at night?  Bulletproof Serial Killers?  Millers who are innocent but get investigated as mafia?  Godfathers who are mafia but get investigated as innocent?  Yeesh.

Has anyone here played before in a large, closed game like this?  Any general comments from those experiences?

And Insomniac, here's a rules question:  When someone dies, is their alignment and/or role revealed?  (That's how it is in Mafia II, but I don't know how universal that is for forum Mafia.)

Good post. My assumption was: Mafia, Mafia RoleCop, Townie, and a possible combination of: Serial Killer, Cop, Jailkeeper, and Doctor. Can it be confirmed that Volt is right and there COULD be anything from the Wiki list quoted above?

[Eevee]

Wow godfather looks just insane, how fun would that be to play?  .. and being a Miller would be oh so sad.

Got to admit, getting pretty excited just reading about possible roles on wiki. Maybe it is more fun with more power roles after all

[Robz888]

With so much overlap with Mafia II it's gonna be hard for those of us still alive to keep each other's behavior straight and separate in the two games. I think out of fairness to the new people we should try not to reference the other games unless it's really pertinent.

Oh I agree. Same holds for the Mafia-I people. My comment wasn't a reference to Mafia-II, rather to the fact that Robz is always up late and does a lot of his posting at night.

I was going to mention this--we just can't talk about the other games, and our behavior in them... at least until those games conclude. At that point, it might be useful information. I mean, you know, "Hey Voltgloss is playing differently, etc. etc..." could be helpful information. But it just isn't fair to discuss it until those games conclude, because that person can't defend his behavior without talking about the game, and that's illegal. Anyway, I doubt that discussion would even help us much in this first round, which is going to result in an even MORE random kill, since we have LESS info than usual.

I have played a lot of IRL mafia (never online until now), and I can do a post about some common roles I've heard of or seen. That mafiascum wiki page is a great starting place, although I know about a couple roles I haven't actually read on there. I'll do that post later (much later) tonight. As Galzria noted, I tend to post late at night (after midnight) and between noon and 5:00 PM.

In the meantime, it's probably most helpful if the new people make some posts so we can get a feel for how they behave.

And... I'm so excited for another mafia game! Welcome to everyone. (These forum games have coincided with my complete and utter collapse from a Level 42 great Dominion player to a level 37 only okay-ish Dominion player. I don't think the mafia games are to blame, as I started declining just before they started, but anyway, it's been nice to have something else to do as I try to figure out what is wrong with my Dominion game these days...)

[Captain_Frisk]

As my first game ever (real life or forum), this closed thing has me wondering what I've gotten myself into - so much reading to do!

Also - while I did re-open Mafia I for Pops because I got lucky and noticed the PM from him almost exactly @ 48 hours... I have company in town and will not be seriously active until Monday evening.

[Dsell]

Is there a list of possible roles that could be present in this game? I have no idea what sort of behavior to look for or be suspicious of if I don't know what they could potentially be, and that wiki list is an awful lot to try and keep track of. But...I guess I've said before that I'm up for a challenge...

Anyway, I'm definitely excited to play with such a dynamic group!

[Voltgloss]

Insomniac, another question:  What's our Day 1 deadline?

[Grujah]

and my head is already spinning.  Vigilante Townies who can kill at night?  Bulletproof Serial Killers?  Millers who are innocent but get investigated as mafia?  Godfathers who are mafia but get investigated as innocent?  Yeesh.

And here are some more, from ultimate warewolf:
http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/35401/player-quick-reference-guide

There are expansions to Ultimate Warewolf as well, and my fav expansion card (though I never played with it) is a "Teenage Werewolf" who is who psyched to be werewolf that he must say the word "werewolf" during each day.  Of course, for it to be useful at all, it has to have a chance of not showing up.

[Galzria]

As my first game ever (real life or forum), this closed thing has me wondering what I've gotten myself into - so much reading to do!

Also - while I did re-open Mafia I for Pops because I got lucky and noticed the PM from him almost exactly @ 48 hours... I have company in town and will not be seriously active until Monday evening.

That's probably fine. Just check in every now and then and you shouldn't receive TOO much suspicion.  No, really though, I don't think we'll be ready to vote as a unit for 3-4 days at least, and possibly longer (I have to assume a larger game moves slower than a small one). So you shouldn't miss too much (although with how active this community is, I don't envy you the reading you'll have to do to get caught up).

[Galzria]

And here are some more, from ultimate warewolf:
http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/35401/player-quick-reference-guide

There are expansions to Ultimate Warewolf as well, and my fav expansion card (though I never played with it) is a "Teenage Werewolf" who is who psyched to be werewolf that he must say the word "werewolf" during each day.  Of course, for it to be useful at all, it has to have a chance of not showing up.

Does that count as you saying "Werewolf" on day 1 then? <suspicious>

[jotheonah]

@Robz, I think mafia is absolutely responsible for my decline from up and coming Lvl 22 to rapidly plunging Lvl 14.

I think in general I'm going to post a little less in this game, just because there's SO MANY of us. But we'll see if I actually have the willpower to follow through on that.

Also, since Mafia II started I've been essentially unemployed, so lots of posting. But starting Tuesday I have a 9-5 job, so less so.

[Robz888]

Uh, yeah... let's all agree to do posts that are somewhat shorter than the Mafia II posts...

[Galzria]

Uh, yeah... let's all agree to do posts that are somewhat shorter than the Mafia II posts...

No books? 

[Voltgloss]

Uh, yeah... let's all agree to do posts that are somewhat shorter than the Mafia II posts...

Agreed.

[Morgrim7]

Uh, yeah... let's all agree to do posts that are somewhat shorter than the Mafia II posts...

No books? 

No epistles? hahaha

I would bet that Duchess (the one that murdered pops and Axxle) has killed Insomniac too. The Duke is most likely somewhere in this homeless shelter.

[Galzria]

Uh, yeah... let's all agree to do posts that are somewhat shorter than the Mafia II posts...

No books? 

No epistles? hahaha

I would bet that Duchess (the one that murdered pops and Axxle) has killed Insomniac too. The Duke is most likely somewhere in this homeless shelter.

+1 for word usage.

Sadly, as far as I can tell, none of us are Duke's. I haven't checked def, O, or eHalcyon though.

[eHalcyon]

Already lots of conversation... I read bits and pieces of both Mafia I and II but didn't fully keep up.

Closed game format is daunting. 

Is there any "required reading" I should look into, being a mafia newbie?  I mean, I've played some IRL but not a lot, and never online.

And on the Serial Killer role -- that one kills every night, alongside the Mafia, right?  So even though it's a closed game, we should know by tomorrow.  Right?

[Eevee]

Uh, yeah... let's all agree to do posts that are somewhat shorter than the Mafia II posts...

No books? 

No epistles? hahaha

I would bet that Duchess (the one that murdered pops and Axxle) has killed Insomniac too. The Duke is most likely somewhere in this homeless shelter.

+1 for word usage.

Sadly, as far as I can tell, none of us are Duke's. I haven't checked def, O, or eHalcyon though.

Highly suspicious of Morgrim now, conspiring against the town!

[Galzria]

Already lots of conversation... I read bits and pieces of both Mafia I and II but didn't fully keep up.

Closed game format is daunting. 

Is there any "required reading" I should look into, being a mafia newbie?  I mean, I've played some IRL but not a lot, and never online.

And on the Serial Killer role -- that one kills every night, alongside the Mafia, right?  So even though it's a closed game, we should know by tomorrow.  Right?

Assuming the Killer and/or Victim are not Jailed. Or the victim healed by the Doctor. Or (and I haven't fully read up on other roles) some other crazy thing.

[Dsell]

You'd think living in shelters we would have some inkling of what they are for! Perhaps there are ruins somewhere nearby??? Anyway it does appear that we have entered some pretty Dark Ages. I don't mind begging for sticks so much having to fear for my life is going a bit too far!

[Morgrim7]

Uh, yeah... let's all agree to do posts that are somewhat shorter than the Mafia II posts...

No books? 

No epistles? hahaha

I would bet that Duchess (the one that murdered pops and Axxle) has killed Insomniac too. The Duke is most likely somewhere in this homeless shelter.

+1 for word usage.

Sadly, as far as I can tell, none of us are Duke's. I haven't checked def, O, or eHalcyon though.

You keep postin' Galzria...

[jotheonah]

Already lots of conversation... I read bits and pieces of both Mafia I and II but didn't fully keep up.

Closed game format is daunting. 

Is there any "required reading" I should look into, being a mafia newbie?  I mean, I've played some IRL but not a lot, and never online.

And on the Serial Killer role -- that one kills every night, alongside the Mafia, right?  So even though it's a closed game, we should know by tomorrow.  Right?

We should. Edge cases:

SK and mafia target the same person, jailkeeper blocks one or both of them (randomly), mafia kills the SK (randomly (actually, if that happens, does the SK still get his kill? Insomniac?)), other night role that can kill like vigilante, multiple mafia families.

[michaeljb]

Already lots of conversation... I read bits and pieces of both Mafia I and II but didn't fully keep up.

Closed game format is daunting. 

Is there any "required reading" I should look into, being a mafia newbie?  I mean, I've played some IRL but not a lot, and never online.

And on the Serial Killer role -- that one kills every night, alongside the Mafia, right?  So even though it's a closed game, we should know by tomorrow.  Right?

Assuming the Killer and/or Victim are not Jailed. Or the victim healed by the Doctor. Or (and I haven't fully read up on other roles) some other crazy thing.

Or the Serial Killer chooses not to kill that night, right?

[Galzria]

Highly suspicious of Morgrim now, conspiring against the town!

Nah. As a fellow Solo-Challenge host, Morgrim is too nice to be Mafia. 

[Eevee]

Highly suspicious of Morgrim now, conspiring against the town!

Nah. As a fellow Solo-Challenge host, Morgrim is too nice to be Mafia. 

You really should be willing to explore other options too, though.

[Galzria]

You keep postin' Galzria...

Wait... what comes after Explorer!?! Uh-oh. Maybe I need to keep quiet before I indict myself.

[Morgrim7]

Highly suspicious of Morgrim now, conspiring against the town!

Nah. As a fellow Solo-Challenge host, Morgrim is too nice to be Mafia. 

Do not worry, I do not suspect you for calling me nice this time.

[michaeljb]

Highly suspicious of Morgrim now, conspiring against the town!

Nah. As a fellow Solo-Challenge host, Morgrim is too nice to be Mafia. 

You really should be willing to explore other options too, though.

Trying to salvage some useful discussion out of this?

[michaeljb]

Highly suspicious of Morgrim now, conspiring against the town!

Nah. As a fellow Solo-Challenge host, Morgrim is too nice to be Mafia. 

Do not worry, I do not suspect you for calling me nice this time.

They're working together!!

[jotheonah]

Ok, I've never used an avatar on this board, but I think I might get one. That will make it slightly easier to keep all these voices straight. (hint, hint to everybody else)

[michaeljb]

Ok, I've never used an avatar on this board, but I think I might get one. That will make it slightly easier to keep all these voices straight. (hint, hint to everybody else)

I'm ahead of the curve

[michaeljb]

Ok, I've never used an avatar on this board, but I think I might get one. That will make it slightly easier to keep all these voices straight. (hint, hint to everybody else)

I'm ahead of the curve

But yeah, I agree it sounds like a good idea.

[Morgrim7]

Ok, I've never used an avatar on this board, but I think I might get one. That will make it slightly easier to keep all these voices straight. (hint, hint to everybody else)

You are right. Where can I get a good download for a Dominion card, say, Haggler?

[michaeljb]

http://dominion.diehrstraits.com/?card=haggler

[michaeljb]

That's where I got the artwork for Wharf, then just cropped it.

[Dsell]

Ok, I've never used an avatar on this board, but I think I might get one. That will make it slightly easier to keep all these voices straight. (hint, hint to everybody else)

Putting a dominion card as my avatar is risky! A lot of the cool ones could make me look suspicious!

*rules out Scheme, Swindler, Mountebank and most every other attack card*

[michaeljb]

Looks like this is a bit higher quality, but when reduced to avatar size I don't think it'll matter too much.
http://www.dominiondeck.com/cards/haggler

[Eevee]

Ok, I've never used an avatar on this board, but I think I might get one. That will make it slightly easier to keep all these voices straight. (hint, hint to everybody else)

Putting a dominion card as my avatar is risky! A lot of the cool ones could make me look suspicious!

*rules out Scheme, Swindler, Mountebank and most every other attack card*

I hope I look innocent enough?

[Galzria]

Hmm, Avatars are a good idea. Who's idea was that? +1 to someone.

[Galzria]

Hmm, Avatars are a good idea. Who's idea was that? +1 to someone.

Aww, crap. I'm the Duke. POST POST POST POST POST.

[michaeljb]

Ok, I've never used an avatar on this board, but I think I might get one. That will make it slightly easier to keep all these voices straight. (hint, hint to everybody else)

Putting a dominion card as my avatar is risky! A lot of the cool ones could make me look suspicious!

*rules out Scheme, Swindler, Mountebank and most every other attack card*

I hope I look innocent enough?

Too cute and cuddly, clearly overcompensating for how nefarious you really are.

[michaeljb]

Hmm, Avatars are a good idea. Who's idea was that? +1 to someone.

Speaking of, it looks like yours isn't working--I'm seeing the symbol indicating a bad image link...

[eHalcyon]

Hmm, Avatars are a good idea. Who's idea was that? +1 to someone.

I am a candle.  Bask in my light, ye folks of the Dark.   

Galzria, your image appears to be broken.

[Galzria]

Hmm, Avatars are a good idea. Who's idea was that? +1 to someone.

I am a candle.  Bask in my light, ye folks of the Dark.   

Galzria, your image appears to be broken.

Trying to fix

[jotheonah]

It was my idea. I claim your +1. Also I can't figure out what size and file type this thing needs to be.

[Galzria]

Hmm, Avatars are a good idea. Who's idea was that? +1 to someone.

I am a candle.  Bask in my light, ye folks of the Dark.   

Galzria, your image appears to be broken.

Trying to fix

Fix? No fix... 

[eHalcyon]

It was my idea. I claim your +1. Also I can't figure out what size and file type this thing needs to be.

I believe it resizes automatically, and it should accept most image types.  Mine is a PNG.  I didn't upload though.

[michaeljb]

It was my idea. I claim your +1. Also I can't figure out what size and file type this thing needs to be.

Small, and image. I'm so helpful...

OK I've checked mine now, it's a 152x152 jpeg.

[O]

Hai guys!

I'm back from a backpacking Trip.

I'm not mafia.

[Dsell]

Ok, I've never used an avatar on this board, but I think I might get one. That will make it slightly easier to keep all these voices straight. (hint, hint to everybody else)

Putting a dominion card as my avatar is risky! A lot of the cool ones could make me look suspicious!

*rules out Scheme, Swindler, Mountebank and most every other attack card*

I hope I look innocent enough?

For now, yes...but tell me, Eevee, do you tend to be happy at night time? Hmmmm??

http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-bw/197.shtml

[michaeljb]

Hai guys!

I'm back from a backpacking Trip.

I'm not mafia.

No one can afford backpacking or taking trips in these dark times! Except maybe someone with mafia connections...

[Galzria]

Ok, I can live with this logo. Oh, and O's Mafia. 100%. As noted, not only could nobody afford backpacking trips without Mafia connections, anybody who DID go backpacking would have EASY access to a STICK. O is Mafia.

[O]

If it's any defense, the second day of the trip was cancelled due to heavy snow. I learned something important: Don't backpack in heavy snowfall.

 

[michaeljb]

Learning is also something that doesn't happen in these dark ages. You just keeping digging yourself a bigger hole

[michaeljb]

(but seriously, yeah backpacking in heavy snowfall sounds unpleasant)

[jotheonah]

Ok, Avatar'd and ready to go.

[Dsell]

Can't...get...avatar...to...work....

100x100? Or something else?

[jotheonah]

I finally just uploaded it to tinypic and plugged in the url.

[jotheonah]

But enough of this technical talk. Let's get to the finger-pointing. Galzria seems awfully anxious to get this thing off the ground, throwin his accusations round and round. Suspicious character right there.

[Dsell]

I finally just uploaded it to tinypic and plugged in the url.

Thanks! Worked perfectly!

....unless you were just trying to get on my good side... 

[jotheonah]

Obviously. Making friends is the most important thing in mafia. The object of the game is to have the most friends.

[Galzria]

But enough of this technical talk. Let's get to the finger-pointing. Galzria seems awfully anxious to get this thing off the ground, throwin his accusations round and round. Suspicious character right there.

Oh I'll never deny being suspicious. Mafia like to keep suspicious people around. The longer I can avoid lynching from the town itself, while still staying suspicious enough in the Mafia's eyes to warrant value, the better the town will do overall in the end since they have a guaranteed +1 vote on their side.

[Galzria]

But enough of this technical talk. Let's get to the finger-pointing. Galzria seems awfully anxious to get this thing off the ground, throwin his accusations round and round. Suspicious character right there.

Oh I'll never deny being suspicious. Mafia like to keep suspicious people around. The longer I can avoid lynching from the town itself, while still staying suspicious enough in the Mafia's eyes to warrant value, the better the town will do overall in the end since they have a guaranteed +1 vote on their side.

Besides, isn't being suspicious more fun than being boring? And I think we've all learned that the Mafia are the most boring unsuspecting people. So who here has been the LEAST suspicious. I point my finger at them.

[Dsell]

Obviously. Making friends is the most important thing in mafia. The object of the game is to have the most friends.

*narrows eyes Leonardo DiCaprio style*

[michaeljb]

Obviously. Making friends is the most important thing in mafia. The object of the game is to have the most friends.

*narrows eyes Leonardo DiCaprio style*

Ooh, he's pretty good at this game. Or at least, he was the second time he played. [/Scorsese references]

[Morgrim7]

Is there a place to get a pic that you do not need to give away info?

[Galzria]

Google image search with link to picture? That's what I did.

[eHalcyon]

Is there a place to get a pic that you do not need to give away info?

Your current image is broken because you're not linking to the actual image file.  Try this:

http://dominion.diehrstraits.com/scans/hinterlands/haggler.jpg

But it's not going to be cropped...

[Morgrim7]

Sorry to sound ignorant, bu how do I crop this?

[michaeljb]

Download it, if you're on a Mac use Preview, on a PC you can just use Paint. Then you'll have to re-upload it.

There might be some place online to crop it, but I don't know of any off the top of my head.

[Voltgloss]

Oh I'll never deny being suspicious. Mafia like to keep suspicious people around. The longer I can avoid lynching from the town itself, while still staying suspicious enough in the Mafia's eyes to warrant value, the better the town will do overall in the end since they have a guaranteed +1 vote on their side.

Trying to walk a fine line between the Town and the Mafia, eh?  What role does THAT sound like? 

[Galzria]

Oh I'll never deny being suspicious. Mafia like to keep suspicious people around. The longer I can avoid lynching from the town itself, while still staying suspicious enough in the Mafia's eyes to warrant value, the better the town will do overall in the end since they have a guaranteed +1 vote on their side.

Trying to walk a fine line between the Town and the Mafia, eh?  What role does THAT sound like? 

I'm sure I don't know. But since I'm the Duke, and I'm outside the jurisdiction of Kingdoms in Mafia-I and Mafia-II, I fully acknowledge that I am the murderer of Popsofctown and Axxle. All other deaths I'm innocent of (including the most recent, Insomniac). I just can't help it! The Duchess and I are in love, and they kept stealing her away. We came to this Shanty Town together, thinking if we abandoned all our worldly Possessions, we would finally be left in piece!

[Morgrim7]

Oh, well. Paint is not working, not letting me upload it. It was worth a shot, though.

Back to Mafia. The Duchess must be the murderer of Insomniac.

[Galzria]

Oh, well. Paint is not working, not letting me upload it. It was worth a shot, though.

Back to Mafia. The Duchess must be the murderer of Insomniac.

I'll have to talk with her...

In all honesty, I'm just keeping things light until everyone has had a chance to check in. The list of names is daunting to keep track of, but I think we still haven't heard from def or yuma. Don't wanna jump in too much until everyone is on the same page. Plus, I want to hear back from Insomniac on earlier setup questions.

[eHalcyon]

Oh, well. Paint is not working, not letting me upload it. It was worth a shot, though.

Back to Mafia. The Duchess must be the murderer of Insomniac.

Nah, Paint works fine.  Here:

http://i46.tinypic.com/2v823y0.png

 

[Insomniac]

Ahh, here we are again, Robz, Galzria, Voltgloss, and jotheonah.

MORGRIM IS MAFIA BECAUSE IT WORKED SO WELL THE LAST TIME oh wait

In all seriousness, the closed setup - and the vast array of roles that could be out there - leave me a bit at sea.  I mean, just taking a look at what the MafiaScum wiki calls the most common roles:

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Roles

and my head is already spinning.  Vigilante Townies who can kill at night?  Bulletproof Serial Killers?  Millers who are innocent but get investigated as mafia?  Godfathers who are mafia but get investigated as innocent?  Yeesh.

Has anyone here played before in a large, closed game like this?  Any general comments from those experiences?

And Insomniac, here's a rules question:  When someone dies, is their alignment and/or role revealed?  (That's how it is in Mafia II, but I don't know how universal that is for forum Mafia.)

Yes

Deadline: 1 Week So June 3

Jotheonah

We should. Edge cases:

SK and mafia target the same person, jailkeeper blocks one or both of them (randomly), mafia kills the SK (randomly (actually, if that happens, does the SK still get his kill? Insomniac?)), other night role that can kill like vigilante, multiple mafia families.

Yes

[Morgrim7]

Oh, well. Paint is not working, not letting me upload it. It was worth a shot, though.

Back to Mafia. The Duchess must be the murderer of Insomniac.

Nah, Paint works fine.  Here:

http://i46.tinypic.com/2v823y0.png

 

Thanks!!!!!

[Galzria]

Insomniac, while you're on, can we get clarification on roles? At least a pool of everything that COULD be in the game? It seems there are a ton on the wiki link most of us don't even know to watch for.

Also, do we know how many Mafia there are (so we can avoid putting anybody in a hammer situation)?

[Eevee]

will be spending the next 26 hours (sadly not a typo) travelling via plane, will need the wireless on air to work to be able to post. (dont know if this was a necessary announcement, a part of me just wanted to whine about having a 26 hour flight (two stopovers though, i guess airports. usually have internets these days)

[Insomniac]

There are 3 Mafia.

I will not list the roles that are available but there is nothing too crazy I promise.

With 13 Alive it takes 7 to lynch

(13) Everyone - Not Voting

[Robz888]

There are 3 Mafia.

I will not list the roles that are available but there is nothing too crazy I promise.

With 13 Alive it takes 7 to lynch

(13) Everyone - Not Voting

Cool! Okay, here are some thoughts on roles and such:

We have 13 people minus 3 mafia. That leaves 10 people. I would guess that at least half of them--maybe exactly half--have to be vanillas. They don't have to be, I suppose, but that's my guess. That leaves 5 people with unspecified special roles. Also, I assume one of the mafia is a specialty role, like Mafia Rolecop.

Jailkeeper, Doctor, Cop: These are the roles that have been used in the other games. I think people are pretty familiar with them. I doubt we have all 3 in the game--they are rather strong--but possibly 2 of them. There are also twists on them, like the Mad Doctor, who kills his target 50% of the time rather than saving it. Who knows if Insomniac went that route.

Doublevoter: This is a weak-ish, but cool, special role. The Doublevoter gets to cast 2 votes during the lynch. Depending on how Insomniac structures it, it can be really easy to figure out who the DV is, making him sort of an obvious mafia target, but... it's interesting.

Shield: Or any other role where the person gets one free "life" in the night. We might have something like that.

Lovers or Couples: I've played with these people once. There are 2 of them. They know who each other are. When one dies, they both die (either during lynch or at night). Other than that, they are just townies. The good thing for them is that they have someone they know they can trust, so they have more info right off the bat. The problem for them is they really have to watch out for each other, and if one says, "I am one of the Couple!" it's really easy for the mafia to score a free double kill in the night.

Serial Killer, Mole, WhatHaveYou: I doubt we have this, if there are truly 2 mafia. 4 killing bad guys seems like a lot. But maybe! These people are part of their own faction and generally have to survive to the end. Neither the mafia nor the town can win until the Killer dies.

Vigilante: This is a townie night killer. He gets to kill someone in the night. He wants to go after people he suspects, obviously, or not use his power. If we have 3 mafia and no other killing role, this might be a logical inclusion.

Those are some of my thoughts. I am sure there are like a million other possibilities.

[jotheonah]

There's also Miller, a townie who reads as a mafia when investigated. Some people suggest claiming right off the bat is good Miller play, though it can also get you lynched day one.

[yuma]

Wow, first day of playing and there are already 3 new pages of info to read. Not sure what I got myself into here.

Thought I would check in and say hi fellow townspeople. Great idea on the avatars. I already had one. As you can see it is of a shark attached to a balloon chasing scientist. Isn't science fun?

My hope for this game is to be as clear as possible in my communication as such I think I'll end each post with this: who I suspect, who I don't suspect and who I am voting for, if anyone. Anyone else not mentioned is neutral (to keeps things simpler I am always going to include myself in the neutral position).

Suspect: No one
Don't suspect: No one
Vote: none

[Captain_Frisk]

Wow, first day of playing and there are already 3 new pages of info to read. Not sure what I got myself into here.

The good news is that it was 2 pages of avatar discussion - I am now avatar'd up as well.

[def]

Oh guys, what have I gotten into here? I went to bed yesterday when the thing hasn't even started, and now it's 3 or 4 pages already. At least mostly no 1000-words posts, but I'm sure that's soon to follow.

For the avatar thing - if everyone of you got one, I'm distinguished by having none.

For newbie advice: do you think it's better to get an overview of what mass of roles are possible, or of only the most common ones, or don't care at all? The twists Robz posted, like mad doctor, and other things I read on the wiki, like (in)sanity, leave me confused, because this way you can't be sure of anything?
But I'm pretty sure that if this is a true Dominion-Mafia game, there just has to be a Jack-of-all-trades!
Or a Goon, Governor, Oracle and Thief.

[def]

Yeah, sure, and when I'm here, nobody talks AT ALL. Which timezones are you in? I'm GMT+1.

[Morgrim7]

U.S.A. Central time here.
The reason why nobody has been talking is, well, there is nothing to say.

[eHalcyon]

GMT-6 (Mountain Standard Time).

More newbie advice requests -- a quick overview of the lingo, please?  In Mafia I and II people talk about bandwagons and hammers being dropped, which I understand from having read a few of the articles on the mafiascum wiki.  Are there other terms we should know?

[Eevee]

we have to get the ball rolling somehow though. i just dont have any suspicions yet, everyone seems friendly and townish.. false security?

[Galzria]

Yeah, sure, and when I'm here, nobody talks AT ALL. Which timezones are you in? I'm GMT+1.

Sorry, you missed the party. If my Avatar doesn't give it away, I live about 15 minutes from DougZ.  (Sunnyvale, CA here).

[Morgrim7]

Dear Journal,
Not much talk in the town today. Everything seems so calm; there seems to be no suspicion about anyone. No idea who is Mafia yet, so us townies must be on our guard. The Duke and Duchess are curently residing at the Baron's Estate.
Today I was asked by the Alchemist to be his Apprentice, but I declined. There is too much going on  with the murder and all, and I think th only reason why the Alchemist wants an Apprentice is because he wants someone to look after his Apothecary shop so he can take a vacation on an Island. Earned 5 Coppers today from the Coppersmith...

[Captain_Frisk]

US Eastern time here (GMT -5?)

It does indeed seem pretty quiet.  I'm assuming that its because of the long weekend and most of us were probably eating burgers and enjoying life outside.  Hopefully it will be more exciting tomorrow.

[jotheonah]

Day 1 is the worst. You have no real option but to poke at molehills until you see a mountain, which you almost certainly made up. But suggest not killing someone and boy do you get jumped on

But there are strategies. Pick somebody, hard target them, shake them up, see what they say or do. Skimming some mafia scum games, I expect the game will be more fun if we all play boldly. Don't let yourself get so terrified of being the day 1 lynch that you don't talk or take any risks.

[O]

I say we kill Robz... out of sympathy for him. He's in too many of these anyways.

[eHalcyon]

I say we kill Robz... out of sympathy for him. He's in too many of these anyways.

My +1 is for the joke, not because I want to kill Robz.

But maybe we should kill Robz...

Aside: Um, hey, what are all your preferred pronouns?  I don't want to refer to someone as "he" when she is a "she".  Or even an "it", if it prefers.

[Galzria]

I say we kill Robz... out of sympathy for him. He's in too many of these anyways.

Blatantly stolen argument from another game. O is a bandwagon'er. Kill him:

 

Uh, why?

Because you're too crafty for your own good.
And anybody who can be involved in Mafia-I, Mafia-II, Mafia-III, Resistance, AND Isodom 5 can't be trusted.
 

[Galzria]

Ok. No more cross-game posting for me. Even in complete jest. 

[Insomniac]

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch - Deadline July 3, 2012
Not voting(13) - Everyone

[Eevee]

having this many players makes lynching really hard (how are we supposed to get 7 of us to vote for someone when there is 0 information about anyone). i dont expect anyone to claim any roles out of thin air either (i mean please dont, sounds like a terrible play to me) so i guess everyone should make semi-meaningless posts like this until someone says something suspicious? idk, lynching anyone feels soo far away right now but obviously we have to kill someone.

[O]

I once again claim Jester.

[Galzria]

having this many players makes lynching really hard (how are we supposed to get 7 of us to vote for someone when there is 0 information about anyone). i dont expect anyone to claim any roles out of thin air either (i mean please dont, sounds like a terrible play to me) so i guess everyone should make semi-meaningless posts like this until someone says something suspicious? idk, lynching anyone feels soo far away right now but obviously we have to kill someone.

Basically. The first person to die will be someone who had the strongest straw-man case brought against them. Rarely will that be Mafia. What we learn, is how/when people voted. Why they made the case for/against. Did they say one thing but do another?

Example of Mafia move:

"My case against X is A, B, and C. I've just got a strong feeling, they've been playing suspicious all game. I'm ready to vote whenever (or at listed time)"

That sets up being able to drop the lynch vote, while having the defense "Well, I said I was going to". Always a Mafia move? Of course not. But we need to watch closely for any hedging. Don't let people present a possible defense before they're ever suspected of guilt. Make them own their words.

[Captain_Frisk]

So - @ the risk of looking suspicious, and in the interest of getting things started rather than another few days of poking, I just searched the thread for the post counts. (Disclaimer - this includes pregame posts)

Username   Post Count (5/29)
Galzria   37
michaeljb   23
jotheonah   15
Morgrim7   12
MrEevee   11
Dsell   11
Robz   10
Voltgloss   9
O   9
eHalcyon   9
Captain_Frisk   4
def   3
yuma   2

Using this as reference: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=How_to_Win_as_Mafia:_Calculated_Inaction

I am going to VOTE: Galzria, based purely on his higher than average post count.

[Eevee]

my read of galzrias general forum behaviour is that he is just a talkative person and likes to post a lot, so i wouldnt hold that against him. i'd actually go for an entirely opposite direction and propose lynching you, def or yuma. how can we know anything about a guy who isnt willing to help us by posting?
Vote: yuma, just to make the quiet people feel the heat & realize they need to come out of their shell.

[Captain_Frisk]

my read of galzrias general forum behaviour is that he is just a talkative person and likes to post a lot, so i wouldnt hold that against him. i'd actually go for an entirely opposite direction and propose lynching you, def or yuma. how can we know anything about a guy who isnt willing to help us by posting?
Vote: yuma, just to make the quiet people feel the heat & realize they need to come out of their shell.

I had actually considered doing the same - but I'm willing to give a pass for weekends in general, and long weekends especially.  There also wasn't a whole lot to discuss - although hopefully this changes now!

[Morgrim7]

Dear Journal,
The town exploded todey after the secret meeting. At the meeting, all of us townies voted on who to publicly lynch. Now, there are two votes already and I can feel more coming. And just to think, we were all so quiet before! Best not wallow in our grief, though, we must be prepared for hard times to come. The two votes cast today were as follows: The Duke, who murdered Axxle and popsofctown, and another person (of whom I do not know the loyalties[by that I mean loyalty to us, the Townies, or the mafia]) who has not spoken much.
I will remain non-voting for the moment, at least until I have more information. I find I unwise to jump to any conclusions at present.
With the five Coppers I earned yesterday I have decided to buy a Merchant Ship. When it comes in, I should be at least two coins richer. I have also decided to ask the Alchemist if he will look over declining his Apprenticeship yesterday. I think now that bed and board may be invaluable; I do not feel right in this homeless shelter...something sinister resides here...the Mafia...us townies need to avoid them...

[michaeljb]

In the interest of generating more discussion (so us townies can start getting reads on everyone) I'm also going to vote: yuma.

Hopefully this works in generating some talk, I'm sure things will be more interesting once stuff is actually happening.

[Galzria]

So - @ the risk of looking suspicious, and in the interest of getting things started rather than another few days of poking, I just searched the thread for the post counts. (Disclaimer - this includes pregame posts)

Username   Post Count (5/29)
Galzria   37
michaeljb   23
jotheonah   15
Morgrim7   12
MrEevee   11
Dsell   11
Robz   10
Voltgloss   9
O   9
eHalcyon   9
Captain_Frisk   4
def   3
yuma   2

Using this as reference: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=How_to_Win_as_Mafia:_Calculated_Inaction

I am going to VOTE: Galzria, based purely on his higher than average post count.

Oh man. If I'm gonna be guilty for talking a lot, I'll never make it past the first rounds of these games.  On the other hand, Whooo! First vote baby! 

Honestly, Eevee has the right of it. My posts per day is at 5.7, and the only person I can think of off hand that comes up higher is WW. So yeah. Not to mention my closing in on 14 days logged online since I registered on March 26, 2012, 02:35:18 pm. Yikes. 

Anyway, rest assured, I most certainly am not Mafia. Though I really wish I WAS in this game... With so many juicy targets to go after... 

[Voltgloss]

Haven't had time yet to read everything in full, but I am a tad worried about VOTES being cast around so quickly.  Suspicions are fine, even strong suspicions, but do we really want to have votes on the table so soon?  Are we not worried about votes piling in so quickly that the Mafia are able to sneak the hammer on a Townie before we really get the discussion going?

Yes, Day 1 is the hardest day to lynch Mafia because we're flying so blind, but moving quickly to a lynch doesn't seem the right approach to me.  Rather, get some suspicions out there, and then see how people react.  Maybe, just maybe, you'll see something in the way people react that could up the chance of your lynch target being Mafia.

And even if we DON'T hit Mafia on day 1, we'll still have generated a decent log of chatter that could prove useful for us going forward.  Y'know, like on day 2 or 3 when someone might be wondering "hmm, maybe X and Y are part of the Mafia team," the more posts we have from X and Y the better we can analyze that.  But if we move too quickly through Day 1 we deny ourselves the chance to get some substantive posting in Day 1.

With that in mind, my suspicions currently weigh towards those who have voted early - Captain Frisk, eevee, and michaeljb.  Why vote so early, rather than simply expressing strong suspicions?  Won't expressing strong suspicions generate the same level of discussion from/about your targets, without risking the possibility of an accidental bandwagon getting hammered by the Mafia?  (Note that there's a two-vote bandwagon ALREADY!  Bandwagons can ramp up surprisingly fast!)  Those are the questions I'd like to hear answered, and others' thoughts as well. 

Also FYI, I will be very busy due to work from now to tomorrow night (EDT) and so probably unable to post substantively again until then.

[michaeljb]

Well I figured 7 votes is quite a few for a lynch, I didn't really think there was much chance of a bandwagon piling up too quickly and yuma getting lynched before much discussion happened--but as you say Voltgloss, "Bandwagons can ramp up surprisingly fast!". I'm just gonna say I don't know how true this is, I've played Mafia a few times IRL, and this is my first forum game so I don't have a good feel for how quickly a bandwagon can get going. If it gets out of hand before we've heard from yuma I'll unvote.

Obviously I don't want yuma to get lynched before having a chance to defend himself, and I really didn't think the chance of that was high by casting only the second vote.

As I said, I was hoping to generate more discussion, which has worked! Sort of (you at least now have reason to be suspicious of a few people so we have something to work with now, even though I didn't really get my desired result of the less talkative posting--though to be fair on that front it's only been half an hour since I voted ).

Anyway, once we hear from yuma I'll happily unvote, maybe for my intended goal def would have been a better voting target to avoid this bandwagon issue. I won't unvote right away though--with only 2 of 7 needed votes, I still see the lynching as a ways off, and we haven't heard from yuma yet.

Maybe expressing strong suspicions will generate the same level of discussion, but I do doubt it would have the same impact as vote--heck, it's stirred up more discussion from you than suspicion would have, right? Yours seems to be the first really substantive post we've had, and that's good for us townies, isn't it?

[Captain_Frisk]

Agreed with MichaelJB - actually voting is going to bring out more talk than vague suspicion. 

I also researched some outside f.ds mafia games to determine whether or not early voting was or was not uncommon.  After scouting 3 threads - I figured early voting was not out of line... here's an example: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=22046

Of course, I because both Michael and Eevee both voted for yuma, I suspect them!  Michael for being the #2 poster and bandwagoning. 

[def]

Of course, I because both Michael and Eevee both voted for yuma, I suspect them!  Michael for being the #2 poster and bandwagoning.

So I'll just suspect you for suspecting them for voting early, that sounds nice.

Consent in the other games so far was that not lynching first day gives the mafia a free kill and we have the same situation again the next day, apart from information some roles could gather, so no use to do so.
If we can get a discussion going to create some suspicion, good, if not, it's still best play to lynch randomly to create information. A bit bandwagoning, while risky, might help here, because with one vote, noone feels forced to react, but with two or three, maybe. Is there anything wrong with this reasoning?

[Galzria]

I'm gonna suspect Voltgloss because he gave "reasons" to be quieter and not say much for the next day and a half, allowing for the town to dig it's own holes.

I'm not buying the convenient "I'll be busy with work until tomorrow night". I demand the truth!

[michaeljb]

Well don't know if there's much I can say to defend myself here that I didn't already say--I voted yuma because for having the lowest post count, but like I said def probably would have been the better choice to avoid the bandwagon issue, while still calling out the quiet ones.

As I understand it, changing my vote once a little pressure is applied to me isn't the right move (don't the Mafia like to be crowd-pleasers to avoid suspicion?), so I'll stick with it until we hear something from yuma.

If I were mafia (I'm not ) I feel that it would be pretty poor play to bandwagon this early--I just voted for yuma hoping to get some activity; Mafia would want to get yuma lynched, and I honestly didn't think my second vote was very threatening to that end (though I am inexperienced and as Voltgloss said bandwagons can build quickly, so the idea that the second vote is no big deal could just be me being noobish). Wouldn't it be more prudent for the Mafia to wait until someone already has a few votes on them before they join in?

[O]

Haven't had time yet to read everything in full, but I am a tad worried about VOTES being cast around so quickly.  Suspicions are fine, even strong suspicions, but do we really want to have votes on the table so soon?  Are we not worried about votes piling in so quickly that the Mafia are able to sneak the hammer on a Townie before we really get the discussion going?

Some people may want to vote quickly so that we don't end up having to read novels before we have any real information.

[Galzria]

Haven't had time yet to read everything in full, but I am a tad worried about VOTES being cast around so quickly.  Suspicions are fine, even strong suspicions, but do we really want to have votes on the table so soon?  Are we not worried about votes piling in so quickly that the Mafia are able to sneak the hammer on a Townie before we really get the discussion going?

Some people may want to vote quickly so that we don't end up having to read novels before we have any real information.

Hey! Better to read 'em than to write 'em. 

In all seriousness, (and more in response to Michael), as my first ever game (RL or Forums) is into day 3 (Mafia-II), I've learned 3 big things:

The "I'm new" argument, doesn't work so well. The game is pretty straight forward. Don't read too much into hard strategy. This game is about instinct and constant analyzing.

The only person who actually knows what their assigned role is, is the person themselves. All we can do as outside observers is take our best guess. But be aware of how and WHAT somebody who is accused is saying. Because if they are innocent, they were working with that piece of information the whole time.

Lastly, people like to make strawman cases. It's the best way early to nettle people. Like calling you out for bandwagoning. At this point, it really isn't an issue, as you've noted. But never get defensive! Defensive play feels negative, and will just bring more/harsher criticism, often unwarranted.

Oh, and DON'T lie. Town or Mafia, that'll get you lynched real quick. Everything you post can be cross-referenced with what you posted before. People won't let you slide.

Ok, done writing "Galzria's tips to Mafia". 

[yuma]

Wow, quick post since I am at work and can't spend too much time.

Not really sure what to say other than I have been busy with school, but that isn't super likely to change.

I will certainly try to post more and be more active, but I don't have all day to be on the forum. That was one of my main apprehensions about joining the game, but felt that I would be alright as some said they wanted the game to be less wordy than the other two Mafia games currently going.

I too am a bit surprised by VOTES?! Suspicions make sense, but votes? I guess it makes sense if the idea was to get me to respond. But I think I would have responded either way.

Current status:
Suspicious: No one
Not suspicious: no one
Vote: None

I'll try to get back on after work, but I can't make any guarantees.

[O]

I did this in the first game and I guess i'll do this again. Voting ATM really is inconsequential and I find it amusing that people are so surprised at votes already occurring.

I will vote for the person whose number corresponds to the seconds digit on the timestamp IFF they have a reasonable chance of being lynched and no mafia clearly screwed up.

Galzria   0
michaeljb   1
jotheonah   2
Morgrim7   3
MrEevee   4
Dsell   5
Robz   6
Voltgloss  7
eHalcyon   8
Captain_Frisk   9
def   -bye
yuma   -bye

[O]

VOTE: MORGRIM

[def]

I did this in the first game and I guess i'll do this again. Voting ATM really is inconsequential and I find it amusing that people are so surprised at votes already occurring.

I will vote for the person whose number corresponds to the seconds digit on the timestamp IFF they have a reasonable chance of being lynched and no mafia clearly screwed up.

Galzria   0
michaeljb   1
jotheonah   2
Morgrim7   3
MrEevee   4
Dsell   5
Robz   6
Voltgloss  7
eHalcyon   8
Captain_Frisk   9
def   -bye
yuma   -bye

What do you mean, bye? I demand to me treated equally. You could use the seconds modulo 12 I guess.

[michaeljb]

Voting ATM really is inconsequential and I find it amusing that people are so surprised at votes already occurring.

The "I'm new" argument, doesn't work so well. The game is pretty straight forward. Don't read too much into hard strategy. This game is about instinct and constant analyzing.

Eh, Voltgloss was responding to my second vote like it was dangerous, talking about how quickly further bandwagoning could happen, I was guessing experience might tell someone that (ie they've seen it happen numerous times with poor results). Like O, I don't really see the harm at this point.

But never get defensive! Defensive play feels negative, and will just bring more/harsher criticism, often unwarranted.

I understand this, but I certainly don't want to ignore it when someone is suspicious of me and has questions they want answered. I guess there's a fine line between appropriately answering questions and being too defensive.

[michaeljb]

I will certainly try to post more and be more active, but I don't have all day to be on the forum.

Fair enough, and probably a good thing in general to not be tied to the compy 

Unvote

[Galzria]

I'm still waiting on Voltgloss to respond to my suspicions that this "work" thing is just a big rouse. He's hiding something I tell ya! Mark my words! 

[eHalcyon]

I did this in the first game and I guess i'll do this again. Voting ATM really is inconsequential and I find it amusing that people are so surprised at votes already occurring.

I will vote for the person whose number corresponds to the seconds digit on the timestamp IFF they have a reasonable chance of being lynched and no mafia clearly screwed up.

Galzria   0
michaeljb   1
jotheonah   2
Morgrim7   3
MrEevee   4
Dsell   5
Robz   6
Voltgloss  7
eHalcyon   8
Captain_Frisk   9
def   -bye
yuma   -bye

Just to clarify -- you mean the second digit of the seconds on your own post?  So... you vote Morgrim?  Nice way to randomize, ha.

And I guess def and yuma got byes for being quiet?  I was wondering how you made the order of the list, but it looks like you just took the list from Captain_Frisk's post of post counts.

[Dsell]

What's this?! We were having a perfectly lovely conversation about avatars and begging for twigs, and now people are suddenly calling for a hanging??    What a mad world we live in!

Seriously though, I'm glad to see more substantive posts! I do hope we can hear a little more from the quieter ones, and it doesn't seem to me like throwing a couple votes out early is putting us in too much danger of an early hammer. It seems like a terribly obvious mafia move to throw 2 or 3 bandwagon votes on a person in the first round to bring the hammer down. Nobody wants to actually lynch right now, we just want strong reactions. And strong reactions are good because a mafia player might be more likely to slip if they have to really defend themselves.

[Eevee]

ha, our votes worked, finally some real discussion!

my (and i assumed frisks's as well) point was just to vote for someone to create some tension and discussion. as michaeljb noted, getting seven people to vote feels sort of far away anyways. on a slightly different subject, am i wrong to think that unless someone does something really suspicious, the first to get up to 5 votes or so (so to a reasonable risk of getting lynched) isnt really a good lynch at all? because mafia is probably going to bandwagon if some innocent townie starts to get like any votes at all so at this point a townie is actually far more likely to get voted on than a mafia?

@voltgloss, as i said earlier, we got to get the ball rolling somehow and my strategy even worked, i got yuma to sort of defend himself even though he didnt really say much. by the way, voltgloss seems to be an awesome guy to have around, really good and insightful posts.

am i the only one who's really annoyed of O's voting behaviour? I mean, you really dont have enough faith in yourself to be able to make decisions better than 100% random? voting behaviour is probably the single greatest source of reads we are going to walk away with from day 1 and voting "random" just gives you a free pass of voting for town and blaming it was random if you are mafia. (you know, you could just pick a random "factor" that led to the guy you wanted to vote for anyways to clear yourself). I'm actually tempted to go ahead and vote for O but i dont want to be the guy who's voting for everyone and stuff so I'll refrain for the time being.

[def]

because mafia is probably going to bandwagon if some innocent townie starts to get like any votes at all so at this point a townie is actually far more likely to get voted on than a mafia?

Since the folks to cast the final votes are very suspicious of being mafia, I doubt that mafia would risk themselves by voting to get a quick kill.
I'd even go so far and say that mafia might vote each other, because with so many players, the risk of accidentally lynching one of their own is pretty low, and it reduces suspicion if one of them somehow is revealed to be mafia.

[Captain_Frisk]

am i the only one who's really annoyed of O's voting behaviour? I mean, you really dont have enough faith in yourself to be able to make decisions better than 100% random? voting behaviour is probably the single greatest source of reads we are going to walk away with from day 1 and voting "random" just gives you a free pass of voting for town and blaming it was random if you are mafia. (you know, you could just pick a random "factor" that led to the guy you wanted to vote for anyways to clear yourself). I'm actually tempted to go ahead and vote for O but i dont want to be the guy who's voting for everyone and stuff so I'll refrain for the time being.

Random voting didn't go over well in Mafia 1 either, but I can absolutely understand it.  As a town player, the only information you have is that you are not Mafia.  Everyone has an equally likely chance.  A pure random lynch is better than no lynch at all - for the reasons outlined in Mafia 2 - AND one that the Mafia is going to be less than enthused about doing (for fear of accidentally random rolling one of their own!). 

It's also not like he's using this to break ties on a hammer vote, just a question of starting position.  Our decisions were nearly as arbitrary.

[Galzria]

am i the only one who's really annoyed of O's voting behaviour? I mean, you really dont have enough faith in yourself to be able to make decisions better than 100% random? voting behaviour is probably the single greatest source of reads we are going to walk away with from day 1 and voting "random" just gives you a free pass of voting for town and blaming it was random if you are mafia. (you know, you could just pick a random "factor" that led to the guy you wanted to vote for anyways to clear yourself). I'm actually tempted to go ahead and vote for O but i dont want to be the guy who's voting for everyone and stuff so I'll refrain for the time being.

Random voting didn't go over well in Mafia 1 either, but I can absolutely understand it.  As a town player, the only information you have is that you are not Mafia.  Everyone has an equally likely chance.  A pure random lynch is better than no lynch at all - for the reasons outlined in Mafia 2 - AND one that the Mafia is going to be less than enthused about doing (for fear of accidentally random rolling one of their own!). 

It's also not like he's using this to break ties on a hammer vote, just a question of starting position.  Our decisions were nearly as arbitrary.

The problem I have with it, is that... Well, yes. Our vote is likely going to be PRETTY random. However, stating that you choose randomly is a complete mislead. I mean, can you prove he didn't set it up to fall on a townie (assuming he were Mafia)? Of course not. So in that respect, there is no such thing as "a random lynch". If you believe someone is Mafia, make a case for it. Right or wrong at least you've done justice to yourself and other players in providing real perspective on how you think.

[Captain_Frisk]

am i the only one who's really annoyed of O's voting behaviour? I mean, you really dont have enough faith in yourself to be able to make decisions better than 100% random? voting behaviour is probably the single greatest source of reads we are going to walk away with from day 1 and voting "random" just gives you a free pass of voting for town and blaming it was random if you are mafia. (you know, you could just pick a random "factor" that led to the guy you wanted to vote for anyways to clear yourself). I'm actually tempted to go ahead and vote for O but i dont want to be the guy who's voting for everyone and stuff so I'll refrain for the time being.

Random voting didn't go over well in Mafia 1 either, but I can absolutely understand it.  As a town player, the only information you have is that you are not Mafia.  Everyone has an equally likely chance.  A pure random lynch is better than no lynch at all - for the reasons outlined in Mafia 2 - AND one that the Mafia is going to be less than enthused about doing (for fear of accidentally random rolling one of their own!). 

It's also not like he's using this to break ties on a hammer vote, just a question of starting position.  Our decisions were nearly as arbitrary.

The problem I have with it, is that... Well, yes. Our vote is likely going to be PRETTY random. However, stating that you choose randomly is a complete mislead. I mean, can you prove he didn't set it up to fall on a townie (assuming he were Mafia)? Of course not. So in that respect, there is no such thing as "a random lynch". If you believe someone is Mafia, make a case for it. Right or wrong at least you've done justice to yourself and other players in providing real perspective on how you think.

In the future O - its probably best to choose something that's reasonably random... Say - Number of Justin Bieber followers at the end of the day modded by 12  (as reported by http://twittercounter.com/justinbieber).

[jotheonah]

am i the only one who's really annoyed of O's voting behaviour? I mean, you really dont have enough faith in yourself to be able to make decisions better than 100% random? voting behaviour is probably the single greatest source of reads we are going to walk away with from day 1 and voting "random" just gives you a free pass of voting for town and blaming it was random if you are mafia. (you know, you could just pick a random "factor" that led to the guy you wanted to vote for anyways to clear yourself). I'm actually tempted to go ahead and vote for O but i dont want to be the guy who's voting for everyone and stuff so I'll refrain for the time being.

Random voting didn't go over well in Mafia 1 either, but I can absolutely understand it.  As a town player, the only information you have is that you are not Mafia.  Everyone has an equally likely chance.  A pure random lynch is better than no lynch at all - for the reasons outlined in Mafia 2 - AND one that the Mafia is going to be less than enthused about doing (for fear of accidentally random rolling one of their own!). 

It's also not like he's using this to break ties on a hammer vote, just a question of starting position.  Our decisions were nearly as arbitrary.

The problem I have with it, is that... Well, yes. Our vote is likely going to be PRETTY random. However, stating that you choose randomly is a complete mislead. I mean, can you prove he didn't set it up to fall on a townie (assuming he were Mafia)? Of course not. So in that respect, there is no such thing as "a random lynch". If you believe someone is Mafia, make a case for it. Right or wrong at least you've done justice to yourself and other players in providing real perspective on how you think.

I have a totally different problem with that, namely that we could all say "Yes, O is wise and his method is sound, let us all vote for his randomly selected townie and get this lynch over with." At which point, the whole point of the quote-unquote random Day 1 lynch - generating discussion - would be defeated.  Or we could each set up our own random number generators and, in all likelihood, lynch no one. But there's no scenario in which your random number generator is actually helpful to the town in any way.

[Galzria]

am i the only one who's really annoyed of O's voting behaviour? I mean, you really dont have enough faith in yourself to be able to make decisions better than 100% random? voting behaviour is probably the single greatest source of reads we are going to walk away with from day 1 and voting "random" just gives you a free pass of voting for town and blaming it was random if you are mafia. (you know, you could just pick a random "factor" that led to the guy you wanted to vote for anyways to clear yourself). I'm actually tempted to go ahead and vote for O but i dont want to be the guy who's voting for everyone and stuff so I'll refrain for the time being.

Random voting didn't go over well in Mafia 1 either, but I can absolutely understand it.  As a town player, the only information you have is that you are not Mafia.  Everyone has an equally likely chance.  A pure random lynch is better than no lynch at all - for the reasons outlined in Mafia 2 - AND one that the Mafia is going to be less than enthused about doing (for fear of accidentally random rolling one of their own!). 

It's also not like he's using this to break ties on a hammer vote, just a question of starting position.  Our decisions were nearly as arbitrary.

The problem I have with it, is that... Well, yes. Our vote is likely going to be PRETTY random. However, stating that you choose randomly is a complete mislead. I mean, can you prove he didn't set it up to fall on a townie (assuming he were Mafia)? Of course not. So in that respect, there is no such thing as "a random lynch". If you believe someone is Mafia, make a case for it. Right or wrong at least you've done justice to yourself and other players in providing real perspective on how you think.

I have a totally different problem with that, namely that we could all say "Yes, O is wise and his method is sound, let us all vote for his randomly selected townie and get this lynch over with." At which point, the whole point of the quote-unquote random Day 1 lynch - generating discussion - would be defeated.  Or we could each set up our own random number generators and, in all likelihood, lynch no one. But there's no scenario in which your random number generator is actually helpful to the town in any way.

Oh, I agree with that completely as well. I think our end conclusion is pretty much the same in either case though: It's highly unhelpful to the town.

[O]

the quote unquote random lynch isn't beneficial because it creates discussion. It's beneficial because it's statistically better for us to lynch the first day assuming random picks.

[eHalcyon]

the quote unquote random lynch isn't beneficial because it creates discussion. It's beneficial because it's statistically better for us to lynch the first day assuming random picks.

Is this true for all group sizes?  I remember seeing the math in either Mafia I or II.  I think there was also a complaint that it didn't factor in town power roles, but that if it did it will still be in favour of day 1 lynch.

[yuma]

I'm mostly checking in because apparently absence breeds suspicion--why is that such a hard word to spell? Every time I type it I have to use the auto correct--but I am not seeing much of anything that seems "suspicious." I understand the need to get a discussion going, but everything that has been said thus far seems to be complete speculation and not really worth commenting on... 

I'm still waiting on Voltgloss to respond to my suspicions that this "work" thing is just a big rouse. He's hiding something I tell ya! Mark my words! 

I did find this a bit off. Just adding a smiley face doesn't make it any better. Emoticons are too often used as a shield to deflect real meaning in a conversation. 

Status:
Suspicious: Galzria--just a little bit
Not suspicious: no one
Vote: None

[Morgrim7]

Sorry I have been gone...
Randomizer voting, huh O? Hmmm not a bad idea, until we find out more..
Some suspicions...
Suspicious: Galzria, maybe some others
Not Suspicious: None
Vote: Nobody...yet...

[yuma]

Yeah, sure, and when I'm here, nobody talks AT ALL. Which timezones are you in? I'm GMT+1.

I too am beginning to feel this way. I am finally on to talk and comment and no one else seems to be writing much of anything at the time. But when I turn off the computer and come back tomorrow afternoon there will be 2 new pages and half a dozen votes I am sure...

Oh, and I am Mountain Daylight Time

[Galzria]

I'm mostly checking in because apparently absence breeds suspicion--why is that such a hard word to spell? Every time I type it I have to use the auto correct--but I am not seeing much of anything that seems "suspicious." I understand the need to get a discussion going, but everything that has been said thus far seems to be complete speculation and not really worth commenting on... 

I'm still waiting on Voltgloss to respond to my suspicions that this "work" thing is just a big rouse. He's hiding something I tell ya! Mark my words! 

I did find this a bit off. Just adding a smiley face doesn't make it any better. Emoticons are too often used as a shield to deflect real meaning in a conversation. 

Status:
Suspicious: Galzria--just a little bit
Not suspicious: no one
Vote: None

Oh, there wasn't meant to be any deflection. It was more a poke at Volt because he's MIA (for stated reasons) from both this game and Mafia-II. Still, feel free to suspect me over it. I'm firmly in the camp that casting lines of suspicion to arouse responses from people (what I'm doing at Volt) is MUCH safer as a town play than actually casting votes to arouse responses. So I do find it funny that my playing "safer" by NOT voting my suspicions gets me more attention than those who use their vote in a possibly dangerous manner.

Ah well, what can I do? I stand by my statement though. I suspect Volt, and would like to hear more from him. Is he busy working? Probably. Can I hold that against him? Well, absolutely! Especially when I have nothing else to go on. I find that better play than a "random" lynch based on timestamp.

[eHalcyon]

Yeah, sure, and when I'm here, nobody talks AT ALL. Which timezones are you in? I'm GMT+1.

I too am beginning to feel this way. I am finally on to talk and comment and no one else seems to be writing much of anything at the time. But when I turn off the computer and come back tomorrow afternoon there will be 2 new pages and half a dozen votes I am sure...

Oh, and I am Mountain Daylight Time

Lurking a bit here because I don't have much of a read on anyone.  However, I find yuma's suspicion of Galzria (reply #223) a bit odd.  What's wrong with what Galzria said?  Seemed like a pretty harmless post to me.  "Emoticons are too often used as a shield to deflect real meaning in a conversation."  yuma, what do you think the real meaning was?

Keeping on the Galzria trail, I'm wondering why Morgrim is suspicious of him as well.  Is it because of the vote counts that Captain_Frisk posted?

(Earlier on I misidentified my time zone as MST.  I realize now that I'm currently in MDT.  Those daylight savings!  Parenthical comment because it's not really relevant to the above discussion.)

[Voltgloss]

Oh, how I wish I had time today/tomorrow to spend on these games. 

But alas work consumed me today as I predicted it would.  It's 1:30 a.m. here and I am still plowing ahead.

I'll try to weigh in with substance Wednesday evening.  Hopefully it won't be sleep-deprived substance.

[Eevee]

UNVOTE

Voting for yuma doesnt feel right anymore, he hasnt said anything i find suspicious and clearly isnt the most inactive player or anything like that anymore (which was the only reason for my initial vote).

O, obviously your random vote is going to be better than going to night without a lynch but no one is proposing that. Thats like saying "i want to buy that cellar because its clearly better than nothing" when you have 3 to spend and warehouse is on board.

Even if we believe your votes really are random (if you are mafia, they are not), voting random is still clearly worse (for town) than voting for someone and stating your reasons for doing so. Why dont you want to help us?
(Note: i dont necessarily blame people who say "i dont have any suspicions or any idea who to vote for, but I do appreciate the people who help us dig for mafia by trying to spot questionable behaviour. Random voting is not going to do that).

ugh i feel i'm writing really bad english atm, sorry everyone & i hope this is clear enough. if it isnt obvious to anyone by now, i am not a native english speaker.

[Galzria]

Honestly couldn't even tell Eevee. Most people on an internet forum don't bother to "speak" well. I'm very appreciative that the community here does seem to make an effort at it though. Having said that, you don't stand out at all to me, so that's a good thing. People around here seem to be a pretty good crowd to blend in to.

[Captain_Frisk]

All right folks, its time for your morning post count:  here's our activity since our last count

Username   Posts In Last Day
Galzria   8
michaeljb   6
O   4
Captain_Frisk   4
MrEevee   3
eHalcyon   3
def   3
yuma   3
Morgrim7   2
Voltgloss   2
jotheonah   1
Dsell   1
Robz   0

RobZ's silence is interesting - given that he has definitely been around.  I don't know whether to read him as lurking or just bored because there is nothing to go on.

MichaelJB and Galzria continue to be chatty.  Since nothing material has happened - I see no reason to change my vote.

[jotheonah]

Safe to say that the-games-that-shall-not-be-named are at a more critical juncture for Robz ATM.

[Voltgloss]

Safe to say that the-games-that-shall-not-be-named are at a more critical juncture for Robz ATM.

Agreed.  Same holds true for me, jotheonah, and Galzria (and Insomniac too of course). 

How Galzria is maintaining highest-post-count here AND putting together his magnum opus elsewhere is truly amazing to me.

[jotheonah]

Clearly "Galzria" is not a real person but an advanced AI. At some point rrenaud's Dominion Simulator gained sentience, registered for the blog, and became Galzria. It likes mafia games because they provide an opportunity to study the human psyche and learn how to better emulate us.

[Insomniac]

With 13 Alive it takes 7 to lynch
Current Vote Counts
Galzria(1) - Captain Frisk
Morgrim(1) - O

[Morgrim7]

Dear Journal,
Bad news. Someone has voted to hang me! The only other vote is for the Duke...at least the person who voted for me did not think I am Mafia (I'm not) the vote was random. I have not voted yet; I wish to wait until I have more Information.
I have made my will in case I am lynched.
The Merchant Ship came in today! I made two coins. I wish to save the money in a bank until further notice.
P.S. The Alchemist declined my request.

[Captain_Frisk]

Safe to say that the-games-that-shall-not-be-named are at a more critical juncture for Robz ATM.

I'd be willing to buy that... except that RobZ still had time to play 10 games of dominion yesterday: http://councilroom.com/player?player=Robz888... and I accidentally caught him via automatch during my lunchbreak.

[Galzria]

Safe to say that the-games-that-shall-not-be-named are at a more critical juncture for Robz ATM.

I'd be willing to buy that... except that RobZ still had time to play 10 games of dominion yesterday: http://councilroom.com/player?player=Robz888... and I accidentally caught him via automatch during my lunchbreak.

Well, the relevant question to THIS game then is: Who won?

[Captain_Frisk]

Safe to say that the-games-that-shall-not-be-named are at a more critical juncture for Robz ATM.

I'd be willing to buy that... except that RobZ still had time to play 10 games of dominion yesterday: http://councilroom.com/player?player=Robz888... and I accidentally caught him via automatch during my lunchbreak.

Well, the relevant question to THIS game then is: Who won?

He did... was village / wharf madness, and I started greening too early I think.

[jotheonah]

Safe to say that the-games-that-shall-not-be-named are at a more critical juncture for Robz ATM.

I'd be willing to buy that... except that RobZ still had time to play 10 games of dominion yesterday: http://councilroom.com/player?player=Robz888... and I accidentally caught him via automatch during my lunchbreak.

Well in that case, let's kill him for sure. /sarcasm

[Dsell]

P.S. The Alchemist declined my request.

Morgrim keeps picking on the Alchemist, which I guess is me by virtue of my new avatar.

Morgrim, what have you to say about these suggestions that I am less-than-kind-and-wonderful?

[yuma]

However, I find yuma's suspicion of Galzria (reply #223) a bit odd.  What's wrong with what Galzria said?  Seemed like a pretty harmless post to me.  "Emoticons are too often used as a shield to deflect real meaning in a conversation."  yuma, what do you think the real meaning was?

Quick response to your question. I think Galzria's comment was exactly what it said. He wanted to know if Voltgloss was really working or if he was using it as an excuse. The emoticon makes it look like a joke.
Emoticons are like the group of students from my old high school who would say something insulting and then add a J.K. at the end of it. Adding a JK or a doesn't change what was originally behind it. Galzria's suspicion of Voltgloss for telling us that he wouldn't be around for the next little bit seemed odd. Just because Volgloss has a real life job that takes him away from a game doesn't mean he should be suspected--for that reason only, if there are other reasons to suspect him, then sure. I would rather suspect someone who says he is free all the next day and then doesn't appear online, or who disappears without letting us know. That is shady behavior. Being clear and open with time and expected appearances doesn't. At least not to me.

Suspicious: Galzria (still very slightly)
Not Suspicious: no one
vote: none

[Robz888]

Safe to say that the-games-that-shall-not-be-named are at a more critical juncture for Robz ATM.

I'd be willing to buy that... except that RobZ still had time to play 10 games of dominion yesterday: http://councilroom.com/player?player=Robz888... and I accidentally caught him via automatch during my lunchbreak.

Well, the relevant question to THIS game then is: Who won?

He did... was village / wharf madness, and I started greening too early I think.

Nah, it was all luck.

Moving on, I have no suspicions. Absolutely none. I haven't said anything, because I have some other mafia games where I do have ideas, and this thread already has enough substance-less posts! 

I will say I don't like O's method of voting--not because I expect us to do much better than random (I do, but not much), but because it doesn't generate too much discussion. Morgrim can't defend himself from a number generator, so there isn't any value in accusing and voting for Morgrim based on that.

I suppose I can do what I usually do, though. Eevee: Are you the mafia? Explain yourself.

[eHalcyon]

Quick response to your question. I think Galzria's comment was exactly what it said. He wanted to know if Voltgloss was really working or if he was using it as an excuse. The emoticon makes it look like a joke.
Emoticons are like the group of students from my old high school who would say something insulting and then add a J.K. at the end of it. Adding a JK or a doesn't change what was originally behind it. Galzria's suspicion of Voltgloss for telling us that he wouldn't be around for the next little bit seemed odd. Just because Volgloss has a real life job that takes him away from a game doesn't mean he should be suspected--for that reason only, if there are other reasons to suspect him, then sure. I would rather suspect someone who says he is free all the next day and then doesn't appear online, or who disappears without letting us know. That is shady behavior. Being clear and open with time and expected appearances doesn't. At least not to me.

Suspicious: Galzria (still very slightly)
Not Suspicious: no one
vote: none

Eh, that's fair.  I don't necessarily agree though -- it certain read like a joke to me.  Admittedly it IS because of the emoticon that I take it as a joke, but I also don't see how it would be an effective way of casting suspicion on someone.  Also, I tend to use emoticons to clarify my meaning online.  Otherwise, my dry sarcastic pith might go undetected, and then what's the point of being dry, sarcastic and pithy?    (And more importantly, I have at times unintentionally offended people who didn't realize I was joking.)

[Morgrim7]

P.S. The Alchemist declined my request.

Morgrim keeps picking on the Alchemist, which I guess is me by virtue of my new avatar.

Morgrim, what have you to say about these suggestions that I am less-than-kind-and-wonderful?

You are probably not going to believe me, but I did not notice that coincidence until now. Must be a different Alchemist.

[Eevee]

By the way I'm sorry for not I'm not able to quote people. It would take awfully long on an ipad and I left my laptop home. Hopefully I'll still be around when I fly back on the 13th!

@Robz, I honestly dont know how helpful that question is going to be (for town). You cant expect anyone to answer "yeah you got me, I'm mafia" but a less experienced player might (accidentally or intentionally) make a comment regarding his/her role which isnt too good for town. (Is this logic sound?)

.. and yeah, I dont think I have anything to explain. I feel I've been one of the more helpful posters this far, dont really see any reason to suspect me. Why did you pick me to ask that question?

[Dsell]

P.S. The Alchemist declined my request.

Morgrim keeps picking on the Alchemist, which I guess is me by virtue of my new avatar.

Morgrim, what have you to say about these suggestions that I am less-than-kind-and-wonderful?

You are probably not going to believe me, but I did not notice that coincidence until now. Must be a different Alchemist.

Eh, I think I believe you. Really nobody seems too suspicious yet. And competition is fierce in my field.

[Morgrim7]

P.S. The Alchemist declined my request.

Morgrim keeps picking on the Alchemist, which I guess is me by virtue of my new avatar.

Morgrim, what have you to say about these suggestions that I am less-than-kind-and-wonderful?

You are probably not going to believe me, but I did not notice that coincidence until now. Must be a different Alchemist.

Eh, I think I believe you. Really nobody seems too suspicious yet. And competition is fierce in my field.

Well, he has enough money for a bunch of Apprentices...have you noticed that there are not very many Peddlers and Border Villages? He even has his own Apothecary shop. Tel us about your Apothecary shop.

[Robz888]

By the way I'm sorry for not I'm not able to quote people. It would take awfully long on an ipad and I left my laptop home. Hopefully I'll still be around when I fly back on the 13th!

@Robz, I honestly dont know how helpful that question is going to be (for town). You cant expect anyone to answer "yeah you got me, I'm mafia"

Eh, you never know.

but a less experienced player might (accidentally or intentionally) make a comment regarding his/her role which isnt too good for town. (Is this logic sound?)

It's probably not a good thing, though we don't know which roles we are dealing with. But yeah, people should keep their roles quiet for now. But no I don't think accusations are likely to out people with roles until that person has a lot of votes. We have to get info somehow at some point.

.. and yeah, I dont think I have anything to explain. I feel I've been one of the more helpful posters this far, dont really see any reason to suspect me. Why did you pick me to ask that question?

Just a feeling. Your posts seem to strike a Mafia-esque balance between purposeful and silly.

[Eevee]

haha trying my best to be insightful and smart and coming out as silly, thats painful to hear

[Captain_Frisk]

It's probably not a good thing, though we don't know which roles we are dealing with. But yeah, people should keep their roles quiet for now. But no I don't think accusations are likely to out people with roles until that person has a lot of votes. We have to get info somehow at some point.

We do need to get info @ some point.  To this end - I am going to UNVOTE.  While I'm suspicious of various people who seem to be anti-voting, I'm going to vote with O here for 2 reasons:

1.  I don't believe that the isotropic timestamp is predictable enough to reliably game - so I do believe his vote is true random - rather than a mafia attempt at guiding us.
2.  Morgrim's posts have been non substantial... I appreciate the attempt @ flavor, but when the posts are journal entries discussing Merchant Ships and banks, it doesn't seem to accomplish anything other than keeping us from thinking that you're inactive and lurking.

VOTE: Morgrim7

[Morgrim7]

-Shrugs Shoulders-
Well, I suppose I will vote too. And my vote is...

[Robz888]

haha trying my best to be insightful and smart and coming out as silly, thats painful to hear

You are insightful. I meant that you are insightful and a little silly, which strikes me as mafia. But it could be that I am exaggerating how silly you are because you are a cute Pokemon.

[Morgrim7]

-Pulls name from basket-
An here we have…

Vote: def

[Captain_Frisk]

-Pulls name from basket-
An here we have…

Vote: def

And this is exactly what I'm referring to - you've posted... but have done so with no substance.  You hint that the vote for def is random, but there's no way for us to verify.  There's no explanation given for the vote. 

[yuma]

Also, I tend to use emoticons to clarify my meaning online.  Otherwise, my dry sarcastic pith might go undetected, and then what's the point of being dry, sarcastic and pithy?    (And more importantly, I have at times unintentionally offended people who didn't realize I was joking.)

That is a good point. Perhaps it is because I am not very sarcastic? I don't use emoticons very much and as such don't like it when other people do. It confuses the conversation for me --see what do I mean by that smile? I don't know, do you -- ah! there it goes again. ....  Ok, maybe I am a little sarcastic.

Status:

Suspicious: Galzria, Morgrim7
Not suspicious: none
Vote: none

[Morgrim7]

-Pulls name from basket-
An here we have…

Vote: def

And this is exactly what I'm referring to - you've posted... but have done so with no substance.  You hint that the vote for def is random, but there's no way for us to verify.  There's no explanation given for the vote.

Explanation: I ripped up a peice of paper into 12 different peices of paper, wrote the names of the player on the shreds, placed them in a basket, and chose one randomly. True story.

[eHalcyon]

I really don't like the random voting by either O or Morgrim.  By randomly voting, you remove yourself from the decision process.  If the lynch goes through and they turn up Town, you can curse fate and keep the blame off of yourself.  You can't be accused of targeting the unlucky player because it was random.  And that tells the town nothing.

If you are town, you should be picking a target based on SOME sort of reasoning.  Something strange the player said.  Their post count.  Their post quality.  Even an inexplicable gut instinct is better than random voting.  It lets the town know that you're at least trying to identify the Mafia.

[Robz888]

Yeah, voting this random is going to be close to random. There's no need to make it EXACTLY random. In fact, we will face the same problems next round if our kill this round is made for purely random reasons. We need to question, accuse, harass. Although I guess these random voters are instructive in that they give us someone to accuse.

So, I insist that pure random voting is the worst thing you can do for the town. O and Morgrim have done it. I ask you both: Why? Do you disagree with my analysis? Will you admit to being the mafia?

[Robz888]

Yeah, voting this random is going to be close to random. There's no need to make it EXACTLY random. In fact, we will face the same problems next round if our kill this round is made for purely random reasons. We need to question, accuse, harass. Although I guess these random voters are instructive in that they give us someone to accuse.

So, I insist that pure random voting is the worst thing you can do for the town. O and Morgrim have done it. I ask you both: Why? Do you disagree with my analysis? Will you admit to being the mafia?

Typo: ****Yeah, voting this ROUND is going to be close to random. There's no****

[Morgrim7]

Why? I guess I was pressure to vote, after two voting squares were.placed on my head. Do I disagree with you? Absolutely not. That makes sense. Will I admit to being Mafia? If I lie to you by saying I am Mafia, what could I hope to gain? Suspicion? People wondering wether I am bluffing or double bluffing? I am town.

[eHalcyon]

Post 224 -- Morgrim said he was suspicious of "Galzria, maybe some others."  I asked for reasons why he was suspicious but there hasn't been a response yet.  Morgrim, can you explain?  Who else were you "maybe" suspicious of, and why?  Why haven't you shared those thoughts?  And why did you "randomly" vote for def instead of people you suspected?

Even though the first vote for you was random by O, I'm leaning towards you now as well.

Response?  Please?

[yuma]

Along with the above posts I am becoming more and more wary of Morgrim7 behavior. I think I will join C. Frisk--whose vote I agree with--and O--whose vote I don't--in voting for Morgrim7.

Status:
Suspicious: Galzria, Morgrim7
Not suspicious: none
Vote: Morgrim7

[Morgrim7]

Post 224 -- Morgrim said he was suspicious of "Galzria, maybe some others."  I asked for reasons why he was suspicious but there hasn't been a response yet.  Morgrim, can you explain?  Who else were you "maybe" suspicious of, and why?  Why haven't you shared those thoughts?  And why did you "randomly" vote for def instead of people you suspected?

Even though the first vote for you was random by O, I'm leaning towards you now as well.

Response?  Please?

I was suspicious of Galzria because of all his posts. I believe it is around 20 now. Some others, meaning the people who did not post much. You yourself said we should vote according to things such as # of posts.
You still do not believe my vote was random? Do you want me to post pictures of the slips of paper and basket? Prepare for some mesy handwriting.
Why did I vote randomly? Good question. In Mafia II, one of the reasons why I was lynched was because of my 'easy on the bandwagon- easy off the bandwagon'. If someone came up with some defense for the person that I had voted for that made sense, I could either keep my vote (which would arouse suspicion) or vote for someone else. Voting for someone else would catch me in the same trap as last time. By voting randomly, if someone ever came up with a defense, I coud unvote, and hide behind my totally random vote and avoid suspicion. Did not realize at the time that the same could very possibly be done for the random vote idea.

[eHalcyon]

Post 224 -- Morgrim said he was suspicious of "Galzria, maybe some others."  I asked for reasons why he was suspicious but there hasn't been a response yet.  Morgrim, can you explain?  Who else were you "maybe" suspicious of, and why?  Why haven't you shared those thoughts?  And why did you "randomly" vote for def instead of people you suspected?

Even though the first vote for you was random by O, I'm leaning towards you now as well.

Response?  Please?

I was suspicious of Galzria because of all his posts. I believe it is around 20 now. Some others, meaning the people who did not post much. You yourself said we should vote according to things such as # of posts.
You still do not believe my vote was random? Do you want me to post pictures of the slips of paper and basket? Prepare for some mesy handwriting.

That's fine, I just wanted to see a reason.

I have no reason to think that you are lying about selecting randomly.  But as others have noted, it can't be verified.  Saying it was random just seems like you want a way to defend a bad choice if it goes wrong, even though your choice may have truly been targeted.  At least with O's approach, it's rather unlikely he could cheat.  Photos wouldn't prove anything here!

Why did I vote randomly? Good question. In Mafia II, one of the reasons why I was lynched was because of my 'easy on the bandwagon- easy off the bandwagon'. If someone came up with some defense for the person that I had voted for that made sense, I could either keep my vote (which would arouse suspicion) or vote for someone else. Voting for someone else would catch me in the same trap as last time. By voting randomly, if someone ever came up with a defense, I coud unvote, and hide behind my totally random vote and avoid suspicion. Did not realize at the time that the same could very possibly be done for the random vote idea.

Random voting seems less helpful to me.  If you vote for someone with some reason, OK.  If a defense is brought up which makes you change your mind, OK.  It gets suspicious if you're especially capricious, but re-evaluating based on input from others is fine, I think.

[Morgrim7]

Post 224 -- Morgrim said he was suspicious of "Galzria, maybe some others."  I asked for reasons why he was suspicious but there hasn't been a response yet.  Morgrim, can you explain?  Who else were you "maybe" suspicious of, and why?  Why haven't you shared those thoughts?  And why did you "randomly" vote for def instead of people you suspected?

Even though the first vote for you was random by O, I'm leaning towards you now as well.

Response?  Please?

I was suspicious of Galzria because of all his posts. I believe it is around 20 now. Some others, meaning the people who did not post much. You yourself said we should vote according to things such as # of posts.
You still do not believe my vote was random? Do you want me to post pictures of the slips of paper and basket? Prepare for some mesy handwriting.

That's fine, I just wanted to see a reason.

I have no reason to think that you are lying about selecting randomly.  But as others have noted, it can't be verified.  Saying it was random just seems like you want a way to defend a bad choice if it goes wrong, even though your choice may have truly been targeted.  At least with O's approach, it's rather unlikely he could cheat.  Photos wouldn't prove anything here!

Why did I vote randomly? Good question. In Mafia II, one of the reasons why I was lynched was because of my 'easy on the bandwagon- easy off the bandwagon'. If someone came up with some defense for the person that I had voted for that made sense, I could either keep my vote (which would arouse suspicion) or vote for someone else. Voting for someone else would catch me in the same trap as last time. By voting randomly, if someone ever came up with a defense, I coud unvote, and hide behind my totally random vote and avoid suspicion. Did not realize at the time that the same could very possibly be done for the random vote idea.

Random voting seems less helpful to me.  If you vote for someone with some reason, OK.  If a defense is brought up which makes you change your mind, OK.  It gets suspicious if you're especially capricious, but re-evaluating based on input from others is fine, I think.

Because pictures would not help, I do not see how I can defend this further. If you choose not to believe me, there is nothing I can do. I can only say I am telling the truth.
Voting for something, and then changing my vote when a good point was brought up played a big part in getting me lynched last time. Don't want to repeat mistakes.

[Dsell]

I gotta say I'm pretty surprised people are jumping on Morgrim like this. While I must agree that his posts have been largely (with the exception of his latest couple) unhelpful and while I don't like the idea of random voting...or at least trying to make something of a random vote, I am surprised to see votes being thrown his way. Disapproving glances, finger-shaking, and even suspicion I completely understand but I think letting this Morgrim bandwagon get off the ground is really premature. Not to unduly bring up the other game, but Morgrim's actions so far aren't seeming too dissimilar from Mafia II in which Morgrim was wrongly mislynched on day 1 because of his...unorthodox posting.

I'm definitely not saying he's not mafia, I have no idea. Nor do I mean to come to his defense adamantly, I'm just saying I think it's premature to draw any significant conclusions from his lack of substance thus far. I'd also like to point out that aside from his apparently purely random vote for def, I am really the only one he's shown any suspicion of or hostility towards, in the form of his "flavor" entries (talking about how the alchemist is terrible and whatnot...which he says was accidental and I believe him, but...really tough to say 100%).

All that said, Morgrim, if you are really town, please play smart. In your other game you drew lots of suspicion and then deprived the town of invaluable information by hammering yourself, and the town is on the verge of defeat in that game.

[eHalcyon]

I gotta say I'm pretty surprised people are jumping on Morgrim like this. While I must agree that his posts have been largely (with the exception of his latest couple) unhelpful and while I don't like the idea of random voting...or at least trying to make something of a random vote, I am surprised to see votes being thrown his way. Disapproving glances, finger-shaking, and even suspicion I completely understand but I think letting this Morgrim bandwagon get off the ground is really premature. Not to unduly bring up the other game, but Morgrim's actions so far aren't seeming too dissimilar from Mafia II in which Morgrim was wrongly mislynched on day 1 because of his...unorthodox posting.

This is really helpful information.  I wasn't following Mafia II closely enough to know what exactly got him lynched.  I did see the self-hammer go down though!

[Dsell]

Maybe it's too early to cry "bandwagon!" against Morgrim, with only Yuma and O voting for him thus far. But it does seem like we should be a little more careful about votes actually based on suspicion rather than just trying to get someone to talk, which I can't ever see turning into a bandwagon.


That reminds me! For the purpose of full disclosure, in just over two weeks, I am going on a week-long camping trip and I will almost certainly have no access to wifi the whole week. I know this could be right in the middle of things and so I'm sorry for that, but I will try to give a lot of substantive posts and help both before and after. I will actually be back before the deadline of day 1 so who knows, if we drag it out I might not miss too much. I'll remind people again with like a week left and before I leave.

[jotheonah]

I would feel like kind of a jerk letting Morgrim be the Day 1 lynch ... AGAIN. Poor guy just wants to play some mafia.

On the other hand, two votes in a town this size is not so big a pressure cooker. It takes seven to kill? So 4 votes is the bare minimum for a mafia hammer, and that's assuming fairly stupid mafia play. So everybody calm down a little.

[Galzria]

I'm kinda with you on that J. I feel bad for Morgrim. But I can't let that stand in the way of good analysis and reads. Still, for the time being, his crimes are no more egregious than O's, and since O is making a habit of willfully unhelpful town play, my suspicions are "squarely" on O.

[O]

I find it incredulous that you see my play as "willingly unhelpful", but I may have to wait till the end of Mafia I to defend myself there.

I have nearly equal chances of lynching a mafia whether I go off nonsensical "hunches" that I can later wave away as just first day ramblings as I do with random choice. The best thing I can do for myself at the moment (regardless of whether I'm town or Mafia at the moment) is convince you I'm town. If I'm town, that's ALSO the best thing I can do for the town at the moment.

Robz is once again going off the I-really-have-strong-feelings-about-these-players-when-I-have-no-information. Does this mean he is any likelier to be Mafia? Not really. But the strong accusation at whim Townie is a bad townie to play with indeed.

[jotheonah]

Ha! By the same logic that I wouldn't want to Day 1 Kill Morgrim, I ought to be thrilled about Day 1 killing Robz, eh? That guy's playing too damn much mafia!

[Galzria]

O, if I asked a random number generator to pick someone to kill, and we lynched that person, how would we be any closer to winning day 2? Our odds will have changed (more often for the worst), but we will have no better knowledge than day 1.

Yes, Robz's play is AS LIKELY to hit town as yours, but at least we get information. Good, bad, or otherwise, it's more than we have with your method. And if town can't figure out who the Mafia are, town losses.

[Morgrim7]

So as to not ensue more unhelpful town play, and to discourage random voting henceforth (I see now why it is a bad idea[now do not jump on me here]), I have decided to Unvote.
O, Robz's voting off a hunch is no better than voting randomly. In fact, it is worse. Here is a list of assets for both.
Voting off a hunch:
-You can get useful information about that person.
-You can get useful information about the people that defend this person.
-Unless the person is Mafia, you most likely wont get jumped on by many people.

Voting Randomly:
-Well, you wont get info out of them; they wont respond. After all, the vote is random.
-Well, you might get jumped on for being 'willingly unhelpful'. Wait, this was supposed to be a list of assets.
-Your vote will be about as random as the normal lynch will be, so it is faster. Wait, faster? So cutting off good time to get info out of people is beneficial?

[O]

O, if I asked a random number generator to pick someone to kill, and we lynched that person, how would we be any closer to winning day 2? Our odds will have changed (more often for the worst), but we will have no better knowledge than day 1.

Yes, Robz's play is AS LIKELY to hit town as yours, but at least we get information. Good, bad, or otherwise, it's more than we have with your method. And if town can't figure out who the Mafia are, town losses.

We get no more information. If you all would like me to go again, putting it through a random generator that's hidden from view, and framing it at a "hunch", I'll gladly do so.

Statistically, once again, it is better to lynch. You seem to not understand this by your "more often for the worst" comment.

[Morgrim7]

O, if I asked a random number generator to pick someone to kill, and we lynched that person, how would we be any closer to winning day 2? Our odds will have changed (more often for the worst), but we will have no better knowledge than day 1.

Yes, Robz's play is AS LIKELY to hit town as yours, but at least we get information. Good, bad, or otherwise, it's more than we have with your method. And if town can't figure out who the Mafia are, town losses.

We get no more information. If you all would like me to go again, putting it through a random generator that's hidden from view, and framing it at a "hunch", I'll gladly do so.

Statistically, once again, it is better to lynch. You seem to not understand this by your "more often for the worst" comment.

If you can back up your 'hunch' with some evidence, go ahead.
Suspicious: O
Not Suspicious: Nobody

[jotheonah]

O, if I asked a random number generator to pick someone to kill, and we lynched that person, how would we be any closer to winning day 2? Our odds will have changed (more often for the worst), but we will have no better knowledge than day 1.

Yes, Robz's play is AS LIKELY to hit town as yours, but at least we get information. Good, bad, or otherwise, it's more than we have with your method. And if town can't figure out who the Mafia are, town losses.

We get no more information. If you all would like me to go again, putting it through a random generator that's hidden from view, and framing it at a "hunch", I'll gladly do so.

Statistically, once again, it is better to lynch. You seem to not understand this by your "more often for the worst" comment.

So, this is problematic to me. No lynch is bad for the town because of (complicated maths)? Or is it bad because it gives the mafia a free kill? Or because it gives the town no information? Or all of those reasons?

But whatever, no lynch is anti-town. Which makes it pro-mafia (or so it has been argued).

AND YET.

Clearly a random lynch is good for the mafia.  If I'm mafia and the town agrees to all pick a single number, run a random number generator, and vote for the person it lands on, I say "Let's do it!" Because the odds are very much in my favor. So a random lynch is pro-Mafia.

So it seems like on Day 1, both lynching and not-lynching is pro-Mafia. How does that work?

The only thing that's actually pro-town at this point is lynching mafia, which of course is impossible to do with any certainty unless the mob screws up.

[Galzria]

So if I understand, O wants to random number generator the game. Because if you do round 1, you might as well round 2, and round 3, and...

You are completely wrong to think no information can be gained from following actual instincts. If you've ever played Poker online you would know this. Tells exist here as much as they do face-to-face. You can't just play a formula and win.

btw, there is a higher percentage of town with 10 of 13 than with 8 of 11. 8 of 11 is better than 6 of 9, and so forth. It is better to lynch than not lynch, but it is NOT better to lynch randomly than to lynch on instinct and information.

[Dsell]

We get no more information. If you all would like me to go again, putting it through a random generator that's hidden from view, and framing it at a "hunch", I'll gladly do so.

Statistically, once again, it is better to lynch. You seem to not understand this by your "more often for the worst" comment.

But the thing is, framing it as a hunch is better. There is literally no reason to respond to an accusation from a random number generator. There's really not any way TO respond. But if someone is noticing something peculiar in the way someone else is posting, accusing that person based on actual suspicions does merit a response, which gives us information. So even if you randomly pick someone and invent a reason for being suspicious of them, as long as it seems legitimate enough to merit a response you WILL get information from their defense. I'm of course not saying you should frame your random accusations that way nor am I saying that Robz' accusations are random and framed. Rather, I think Robz has some feeling for the game from playing a bit more. But still, saying that random voting gives us the same amount of information as votes based on "suspicious" behavior is just wrong. And it does seem like you are kinda unwilling to see this point.

Pre-post edit: Sorta ninja'd but oh well.

[O]

And yet I've spiked conversation.

[Morgrim7]

O, you have not been defending yourself. If you wish to soften suspicion, please explain why you continue to support random voting.

[Robz888]

The true random voting--names out of a hat or number generator--is unhelpful because it doesn't generate discussion over the accusation. And I still say it is less likely to hit a mafia than hunch and evidence-based voting, but maybe only slightly less likely. Still, we are going to need these conversations to look back on next round and really start figuring things out.

For that reason, the true random voting is bad/unhelpful town behavior. So I was asking these bad/unhelpful town players to defend themselves. It doesn't mean I actually think they're mafia. I personally toss accusations around but reserve actual voting for the person I have settled on.

(For the record, though, since we may very well have no clue who the mafia is this round, killing the worst townie, even if we don't suspect him very much, isn't the worstfallback plan...)

[O]

O, you have not been defending yourself. If you wish to soften suspicion, please explain why you continue to support random voting.

I don't feel the need to defend myself. You accused me because I accused you, and I still see it unlikely that I need to be lynched.

[jotheonah]

(For the record, though, since we may very well have no clue who the mafia is this round, killing the worst townie, even if we don't suspect him very much, isn't the worstfallback plan...)

In light of this, and the fact that if O is ok with a random lynch, he must be ok with being lynched, and the fact I don't like O's tone and he's been getting annoying, Vote: O

[O]

(For the record, though, since we may v