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[BaruMonkey]

Or, more accurately, Embargo vs. Pretty much any card with Potion in its cost.

If you see your opponent buy a potion (and you haven't yet), that's a great time to go in on an Embargo or three, meanwhile picking a different strategy. I generally don't know how to use Embargo ("but I want that card too!"), but this appears to be pretty clear-cut to me.

Now: Please tell me why I'm wrong. Because I very well may be, and I just don't know why.

[philosophyguy]

It's a good strategy, but it may not be enough on its own. If your opponent is going for Familiar, there's a decent chance they can hit Familiar before you get to play your Embargo. Even if you get the Embargo there first, being on the wrong end of a 9-1 curse split is still pretty ugly.

Possession, likewise, is often powerful enough to be worth a single Curse. The good news is that your opponent will need time before he can afford Possession, which means you have the chance to multi-Embargo it. But, by the same token, you'll be spending a lot of turns buying/playing Embargos at the expense of your own deck development.

Alchemist is quite vulnerable to Embargo because they make it much more painful to acquire the Unstoppable Alchemist Stack. Golem will really depend on the actions they are drawing with it. I don't know enough to fathom a guess about University or Apothecary.

[popsofctown]

Apothecary declines in value so rapidly that it might not matter too much, you just want the early ones.

I think Uni and Golem are hit hard.  Golem is always competing with a simple purchase of the cards in question

[BubbleBoy]

Seems to me like Golem would be affected least. It tosses aside the Curses in your deck when you use it.

[Robz888]

I definitely like Embargo as a counter to Potion. It definitely hurts Scrying Pool, and does quite a bit of damage to Vineyards and University, probably. And it makes Golem, Apothecary, and Possession somewhat less palatable.

But if you could only list one, Alchemist is the card that is utterly crippled by Embargo. It will occasionally happen where someone will see Alchemist and open with Potion, but not notice Embargo, since it's sort of an innocuous $2 card, often skippable. Oh, how it hurts Alchemist. Alchemist isn't so great anyway, but it's wildly misunderstood, and people go for it baffling often.

[qmech]

Seems to me like Golem would be affected least. It tosses aside the Curses in your deck when you use it.

Golem is hurt by curses about as much as any other card; the cards you skip are likely to be typical of your non-Action cards, so the number of Curses you draw into hand each turn will be about what you'd expect.

[Thisisnotasmile]

Slightly related question:

If you open Potion on a Familiar board with no other cursers and your opponent gets an Embargo token on the Familiars before you buy your first one, how many is it optimal for you to buy?

If you buy just one, you're going to start with 2 dead cards to his 0 (Curse and Potion vs nothing), and end 2 to 9, but you're only going to add one Curse to his deck per shuffle, which is pretty slow considering you start 2 cards down. If you buy more, you obviously start at more of a disadvantage, and have less ammo, but you can get that ammo fired a lot quicker.

Can this be done in the simulators?

[WanderingWinder]

Slightly related question:

If you open Potion on a Familiar board with no other cursers and your opponent gets an Embargo token on the Familiars before you buy your first one, how many is it optimal for you to buy?

If you buy just one, you're going to start with 2 dead cards to his 0 (Curse and Potion vs nothing), and end 2 to 9, but you're only going to add one Curse to his deck per shuffle, which is pretty slow considering you start 2 cards down. If you buy more, you obviously start at more of a disadvantage, and have less ammo, but you can get that ammo fired a lot quicker.

Can this be done in the simulators?

Depends on the rest of the board, your other options, how much curses affect you/them, how fast the game is going to be... generally I'd guess 2 though.

[Geronimoo]

As a general guideline, 2 seems best.

Put this bot first and check the "keep player order" box.

Code: [Select]

<player name="Big Money Ultimate (start 3rd turn, play Embargo)"
 author="Geronimoo"
 description="The optimized strategy that buys only treasure.">
 <type name="Optimized"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
  <start_state>
    <hand contents="Embargo, 3 Copper, Estate"/>
    <discard contents=""/>
    <drawdeck contents="4 Copper, 2 Estate, Silver" shuffle="true"/>
  </start_state>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="getTotalMoney"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="18.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>


Code: [Select]

<player name="Familiar (start from 3rd turn)"
 author="Geronimoo"
 description="Familiar is often one of the defining cards on a board.">
 <type name="Attacking"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
  <start_state>
    <hand contents="Potion, 3 Copper, Estate"/>
    <discard contents=""/>
    <drawdeck contents="4 Copper, 2 Estate, Silver" shuffle="true"/>
  </start_state>
   <buy name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Familiar">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Familiar"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Potion">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Potion"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>


[Asklepios]

Despite having read this thread immediately beforehand, I yesterday opened Potion / Embargo as first player on a board with Universities as the only Potion card, figuring that I could then Embargo the juicy $5 cards and gain them with University.

I paid for the University by having to gain an early curse, but I think it was still almost worth it. I say almost, because the board had TWO strong $5 cards on it: Highway and Hunting Party, and I only really had time to properly embargo one of them. (The Highway was strong because of Worker's Village also being in the set).

As it was, I lost, but I stand by the idea that it is sometimes worth opening potion even if embargoes are there. Not for alchemist, maybe, but certainly for Familiar if its the sole curser, or for University if there's a good $5 card to be gained.

[DStu]

Yepp, Potion is definitely not a non-go if Embargo is on the board, it all depends on the rest of the cards.

The point is, if the alternative to a Scrying Pool Engine, or the University, or whatever is BigMoney, this is also hurt a lot by the Curses. If you gain a Curse for every Gold, or for every Province, you can't expect to play a good BigMoney game.