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[Axxle]

I think this is a better discussion to be had in that Mafia thread

[popsofctown]

No, it's appropriate in this thread.  This is specifically about me creating a QT for spectators of this thread.

I'm doing so, goober's complaint is noted, I'm not going to discuss it further, but if others wish to do so they should do it here.

[goober]

OK pops, like I said I can see this argument is over and I have lost. Can I ask that it be made clear in the sister thread not that it is not to contain any factual information about the game (like if an observer happens to know someone in the game and knows what they know)?

[O]

OK pops, like I said I can see this argument is over and I have lost. Can I ask that it be made clear in the sister thread not that it is not to contain any factual information about the game (like if an observer happens to know someone in the game and knows what they know)?

I'm pretty sure we've all kept mum there. My brother is on F.DS and I haven't told him my role (not that he's asked, or even seen this thread..)

[popsofctown]

The QT already complies with your request, goober, that's what it says in the first post.

As a compromise, I'll restrict QT links to people with a reasonable amount of onsite presence.

[goober]

OK, appreciate it pops.

[theory]

For the record, I cannot see anyone's PMs on this site.  Private messages are private.

[theory]

Campaign-drivers are more likely overall to be mafia than the general population. Thats my "little reason".

I find this statement to be astonishing as well as deeply ironic.

The fact that you lobby for lynching me does not, itself, imply to me that you are Mafia.  I assume and expect all of my fellow townies to share my zeal in hunting down those that they suspect of being Mafia.  If we fall into the trap of suspecting anyone who is firm in their convictions, then it will prove very difficult to successfully lynch the mafia members infiltrating our town.

[O]

Campaign-drivers are more likely overall to be mafia than the general population. Thats my "little reason".

I find this statement to be astonishing as well as deeply ironic.

The fact that you lobby for lynching me does not, itself, imply to me that you are Mafia.  I assume and expect all of my fellow townies to share my zeal in hunting down those that they suspect of being Mafia.  If we fall into the trap of suspecting anyone who is firm in their convictions, then it will prove very difficult to successfully lynch the mafia members infiltrating our town.

I meant first round campaign. And I did not lobby for lynching you originally.

[ftl]

At the risk of sounding information-not-analysis, just thinking through reasons to be suspicious of various people:

TINAS: Suspicious because: claiming to be ok with being lynched, roleclaiming vanilla townie, being confusing. Unsuspicious because: maybe he's just a troll. And eh, it's just words, there were no suspicious accusations or associations, getting reads on people is harder than it seems I think...
Theory: Suspicious because: spearheaded a campaign against TINAS, including seriously wanting it to end quickly and lynchingly. Unsuspicious because: it was a campaign against TINAS, and it seemed pretty honest I guess?
Ozle: Suspicious because: made Rob's accusations of TINAS and Theory's vote against TINAS into a real bandwagon by adding in a second vote, with pretty specious reasoning at the time. Unsuspicious because: Well, I reread a lot of his posts, and they seem very similar to what goes through my head, and he claimed to be a newbie and I haven't played much IRL and no forum mafia, so this behavior/talk seem pretty consistent with "newbie townie". 
Davio: Suspicious because: not that many posts to go on? Unsuspicious because: Didn't he start redirecting attention from TINAS to Theory? Unless him and TINAS are in cahoots.
O: Suspicious because: He spent a while voting purely, transparently randomly... and I'm not sure whether he ever stopped, considering I'm his top suspect ever since his post came up ending with the digit '4' which landed on me. And then trying to justify that as sincere? Also, his ranking seems strange - basically everyone who's had strong convictions and accusations is high on the list, whereas people who haven't are low on it? Not suspicious because: ...not sure, actually. Because he didn't vote for TINAS?
Robz: Well, he's been very straightforward so far. He believes he had a read on TINAS and has been in favor of lynching him all along, never deviating. Perhaps a suspicious amount of confidence for a townie?

Honorable mentions to:
Popsofctown: he died first, but maybe he's coming back as a zombie to kill us all? You never know.
Me: ...right, not filling this one in, someone else can if they think I'm suspicious enough to warrant it.
 

...I tried to make suspicion rankings like Robz or O, but I'm being too uncertain at the moment.

TINAS, Theory, O are probably near the top.
Davio, Ozle, Robz afterwards.
Goober, Axxle, and ME unsuspicious.

Still don't feel comfortable voting for someone Maybe I'll vote theory later tonight or something.

[goober]

ftl-

I would certainly consider your post to be analysis as well as information and I think a summary style post like this is order when we sort of pause like this anyway. And I'm also glad someone got this thing back on track after I derailed it with my paranoid rantings about the observer discussion. I think we are still on 4 votes for theory. Please don't hammer him abruptly thinking you are just pressuring.

[goober]

So this post is mainly directed at ftl and Davio:

It looks like its just us abstaining at this point, and battle lines have been drawn between theory and TINAS. Do either of you guys have suspicions about other players that you want to get out there? I think now is the time to hear it. ftl, it sounds like you are kind of bouncing around a bit right now. It's great that you are thinking about everybody, and I'd love to hear a real case against a non-TINAS/theory player if you've got one brewing. Davio, it seems like we mainly miss each other online, but I get the impression you and I are thinking about this situation pretty similarly, with the obvious suspicion/dislike of TINAS but also some suspicion of his early accusers, with not much of a read on the other players. Is that correct?

Anyway, I'm thinking the other players are mainly sticking with their votes and it's going to be up to us to decide who we want to lynch. If that's the case, I think it should be TINAS, for reasons I expounded in #263. What do you guys think?

[ftl]

Oh, I'm entirely bouncing around right now, not just a little. Life was simple when it was clear that TINAS was mafia and that was it.

But I can see the argument for Theory (some of which, by extension, also hits Ozle since he was next on the votes in the bandwagon.) And I know some of my dislike for TINAS is because of that quote which I won't bother reposting, which in my mind is a capital crime like talking in movie theaters or cheating. And, as you point out, not much of a read on anyone else. You and Axxle and Robz seem legit, but my intuition in this ain't worth much.

Ima go google and see whether anyone has collected any stats on mafia, maybe there's an uncivilized barbarian of statistics somewhere out there that's got something useful to give me something more objective than just hunches. Doubt it, but worth a shot.

[Robz888]

Can someone explain to me what the totality of the argument against theory is? It seems thin to me. Looks like all he did was get on the TINAS bandwagon quickly, and as I've said, there was good reason to get on that bandwagon. Why does it read opportunism, rather than sincerity, to you guys?

[Thisisnotasmile]

Speaking only for myself, but the reason Iam voting for Theory, other than the fact that he is one of the peole to have voted for me, is the way in which he has done so. Most people who have voted for me have at least taken the way that I am and act and somehow twisted that into meaning I am suspicious and therefore mafia. That's fine. That's the game. Theory hasn't though. See, first of all, his lynch post in it's entirety containing full and clear reasoning to back up his vote:

Vote: TINAS

Yeah.

Second of all, I present his willingness to kill anyone simply to draw out information:

Theory, on the other hand, has been very short and firm in his posts. His comment about the first lynch being random bugged me. Instead of trying to actively find the mafiosi he points the finger at Thisisnotasmile, who a lot of you are already suspecting. Going with the group seems like a good idea if you don't want to stick out.

I'm heavily suspecting Theory at this point and need some heavy arguing to change my vote.

My goal is not to keep all the townies alive.  My goal is to eradicate the mafia before they get us all.  If it takes a sacrificial lamb in the form of TINAS to draw out useful information (i.e., how everyone is reacting to it), then I am all for it.

I mean yeah,  killing me will draw out information. So will killing anyone. That's how mafia works. I accept that chances are we're going to kill a town member today (statistically) and in such a case, we need a sacrificial lamb. But why me? I mean, everyone else has given their reasons, but Theory hasn't. He just want's to kill me because someone needs to die, and I was the easy target at the time. I guess the irony is that he's brought out information without even making me a sacrificial lamb.

And finally:

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.  *sharpens pitchfork*

"Quick, the bandwagon's nearly full, let's get this over with quickly before it gets turned around". Once again, no real reasons given.

[Davio]

Good morning to 2 new fresh pages, as expected.

I'm sticking with Theory. I decided that he was a likely candidate a couple of pages ago and in my eyes he hasn't done enough to clear himself. He keeps pointing the finger at TINAS and not explaining why we shouldn't lynch him.

I'm of course suspicious about TINAS, but as I mentioned before there may be more to gain for us by leaving him alive than by lynching him.

About the rest: Axxle is short and concise, this may be because he's Mafia and doesn't want to give away too much, I'm slightly suspicious of him. Then again I'm suspicious about all the bandwagoners.

I'm not so suspicious about O or Goober, I think they misjudged somewhat how many time it takes to keep up with topics like this.
@Goober: I haven't changed my vote since voting for Theory a while back and I'm staying with it. If you want to vote for TINAS, I understand your reasons to do so and will not convince you otherwise.

[Ozle]

I go out for one night and O forgets my name! *cries*

I don’t think I bandwagon jumped for TINAS, I was suspicious (not annoyed) of his behaviour all the way through (and stated that), and there were some good arguments made at the time and coupled with TINAS comments at the time, I can’t believe even a non-power townie would be so nonchalant against being lynched unless it was a last ditch attempt to not get lynched! If Theory had not voted when he did, I probably would have been first to vote.

If TINAS isn’t a mafia I shall eat my hat! (Note: I don’t actually own a hat)

Also, as we seem to be drawing a consensus that either Theory or TINAS is a mafia, we need to start looking at not who is voting for them, but for who is defending the one we think is....

[Thisisnotasmile]

I go out for one night and O forgets my name! *cries*

I don’t think I bandwagon jumped for TINAS, I was suspicious (not annoyed) of his behaviour all the way through (and stated that), and there were some good arguments made at the time and coupled with TINAS comments at the time, I can’t believe even a non-power townie would be so nonchalant against being lynched unless it was a last ditch attempt to not get lynched! If Theory had not voted when he did, I probably would have been first to vote.

If TINAS isn’t a mafia I shall eat my hat! (Note: I don’t actually own a hat)

Also, as we seem to be drawing a consensus that either Theory or TINAS is a mafia, we need to start looking at not who is voting for them, but for who is defending the one we think is....

Funnily enough, when you are that close to being lynched all you have left are "last ditch attempts to not get lynched". Are you trying to imply that only mafia would want to not be lynched?

Also, you still have time to get a hat. And I recommend you do. And a webcam please, I want to see this.

[Ozle]

Funnily enough, when you are that close to being lynched all you have left are "last ditch attempts to not get lynched". Are you trying to imply that only mafia would want to not be lynched?

Also, you still have time to get a hat. And I recommend you do. And a webcam please, I want to see this.

You tell me, you are the one who is claiming townie but also claiming that you dont mind being lynched, to the point of offering to vote for yourself at one point....

[Thisisnotasmile]

Okay...

Everyone wants to not be lynched.

Does that help?

(Off to work now)

[Ozle]

Okay...

Everyone wants to not be lynched.

Does that help?

(Off to work now)

Not really, pretty sure I knew that it was a desperation ploy to not get lynched, which means it doesn't explain away any of my earlier suspicions of you because thats how you would act if you were townie or mafia.

I know this confrontational style is 'the way you play' but I still think you made a mistake in the beginning and drew waay to much suspicion on it with yourself. And if you really are town then it seems a bit of a rookie mistake for someone who has played this game before lots. So if your Mafia you made a mistake, and if you really are a vanilla townie then you made a bigger one.

(Also off to work now, but able to check in from time to time)

[Thisisnotasmile]

My only 'mistake' was to respond to joking accusations "I know nothing but I think it's TIANS and Theory" with a joking rebuttal "Well I know it's not me so it must be Theory". Nothing else that I have said even comes close to being a mistake, no matter how many times you or anybody else says it does. If you don't get it, that's your fault, not mine.

As an aside, I find it a kind of funny that after all of this, it's still me and theory in the line of fire. Seems the random finger pointing has stuck.

[ftl]

So, some time has passed, nothing's happening. I guess it's the dead part of the day, middle of the workday. And I'm too nervous to cast a potentially deciding vote.
 

Nothing else that I have said even comes close to being a mistake,

Well, at the very least claiming to be a vanilla townie is a mistake, isn't it? If it's true, then the mafia know who not to kill when cop-or-doctor-hunting. (It's a mistake if it's true. And if it's not, well, then you're a mafia and should be lynched...)

[O]

So, some time has passed, nothing's happening. I guess it's the dead part of the day, middle of the workday. And I'm too nervous to cast a potentially deciding vote.
 

Nothing else that I have said even comes close to being a mistake,

Well, at the very least claiming to be a vanilla townie is a mistake, isn't it? If it's true, then the mafia know who not to kill when cop-or-doctor-hunting. (It's a mistake if it's true. And if it's not, well, then you're a mafia and should be lynched...)

If its true, the mafia will know not to..

But how would the mafia know if it were true?

[ftl]

True, I guess with how much pressure TINAS has had, that doesn't really carry any more weight than the lack-of-power-roleclaim.