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[goober]

So the lynch of TINAS hasn't happened yet because Davio, Axxle, O, and myself all are refusing to drop the hammer. I've not wanted to do it because I thought it was a bit quick and I wanted a chance to rattle a couple cages before the day was done. I feel like at this point I've gotten my chance to do a bit of that, and might not get much more out of it today with us down to two real lynch candidates. I get the feel from Davio that he may have the same motivations for delaying. Axxle I still don't really get the reasoning for, but I think I've gotten what I can from him about this situation. O just made a post as I was writing this, and I guess he thinks TINAS is innocent, but I'm not convinced either way.

A few of you have made a point that I feel is a good one; that if we don't lynch TINAS for this, what are we going to lynch him for later? I don't like that his behavior is so erratic that I can't get a read on him. I like that he has sparked some revealing back-and-forth, but I'm a bit worried that if we keep him around (and then the mafia of course don't kill him) we will have a really awkward start to day 2, where we all feel like we still can't read him and now feel like we have to basically not even try. I envision another day of suspecting TINAS and having a hard time getting other discussions going. I also don't want to progress far in the game with a teammate that I don't feel I can have a meaningful discussion with. For these reasons, I say we just hammer him, and I'll do it after he gets his last words in unless someone else jumps in to make a real case for another player.

[O]

Because bandwagoning gives people a worse read of you than the TINAS has given us? If you don't accept bandwagoning as evidence of Mafia than what reads have Theory, FTL and Robz888 given you other than "I vote for whoever is being voted on at the moment" (which is a TERRIBLE townie strategy and a ok-but-not-great mafia one.

[Thisisnotasmile]

And I was so close. Go for it. I've said all I have to say, just keep it in mind once you know the truth.

[goober]

Sure bandwagoning can be read as mafia, but I think context matters. We can't just suspect whoever adds votes to suspicious players or we'll never lynch anyone. I think I was pretty specific in why I thought theory's aggression towards TINAS seems fishy, and if we lynch him and he flips town then I will continue to be suspicious of him. I've never been particularly suspicious of robz or ftl. I just think this TINAS situation has sort of run its course and we should move on.

[O]

Sure bandwagoning can be read as mafia, but I think context matters. We can't just suspect whoever adds votes to suspicious players or we'll never lynch anyone. I think I was pretty specific in why I thought theory's aggression towards TINAS seems fishy, and if we lynch him and he flips town then I will continue to be suspicious of him. I've never been particularly suspicious of robz or ftl. I just think this TINAS situation has sort of run its course and we should move on.

You don't "move on" by lynching someone who is probably not mafia (more likely not to be than other characters).

[Axxle]

@ Axxle: TINAS has pretty clearly communicated his reads IMO

Yeah, I guess I can't force him to have reads he doesn't have.  If I remember right, TINAS is 100% in support of goober, and believes that both mafia have voted for him, with suspicion mostly against theory.  Is that right?

[goober]

OK, O, can you explain what in TINAS' posts makes you think he has to be town? And also, what we do on day 2 if he's still alive and still acting the same way, but we're likely down to 5 townies? This just seems like a bad situation to me, and I don't feel like I have any reason to think TINAS is more likely to be town (other than straight odds)

[Robz888]

Because bandwagoning gives people a worse read of you than the TINAS has given us? If you don't accept bandwagoning as evidence of Mafia than what reads have Theory, FTL and Robz888 given you other than "I vote for whoever is being voted on at the moment" (which is a TERRIBLE townie strategy and a ok-but-not-great mafia one.

Hey now, that's ridiculous. I accused TINAS early and often, for reasons I have made clear over and over again: he said weird things, made a blunder, got defensive, pretended to not care and offered to vote for himself, then didn't, then went mostly quiet. He reads like a mafia to me. I prefer to toss around accusations, rather than votes, so I waited to actually come down on him, but I made clear from very early on that I would do so.

So I certainly don't "vote for whoever is being voted on at the moment." Actually, that person seems to be Axxle, whom you neglected to mention here. He voted and unvoted both TINAS and goober.

[O]

OK, O, can you explain what in TINAS' posts makes you think he has to be town? And also, what we do on day 2 if he's still alive and still acting the same way, but we're likely down to 5 townies? This just seems like a bad situation to me, and I don't feel like I have any reason to think TINAS is more likely to be town (other than straight odds)

Because given the rapid bandwagoning on him, it means that a Mafia member is more likely than not voting for him. Mafia have directed information the first round that townies don't, and thus can easily put their two votes together to sway the vote.

TINAS has not made a desperate accusation of another player (he has said he suspects mafia are voting for him, but has no gone on an all-out-offensive). That is often is characteristic of an accused mafia defending himself.

[O]

Because bandwagoning gives people a worse read of you than the TINAS has given us? If you don't accept bandwagoning as evidence of Mafia than what reads have Theory, FTL and Robz888 given you other than "I vote for whoever is being voted on at the moment" (which is a TERRIBLE townie strategy and a ok-but-not-great mafia one.

Hey now, that's ridiculous. I accused TINAS early and often, for reasons I have made clear over and over again: he said weird things, made a blunder, got defensive, pretended to not care and offered to vote for himself, then didn't, then went mostly quiet. He reads like a mafia to me. I prefer to toss around accusations, rather than votes, so I waited to actually come down on him, but I made clear from very early on that I would do so.

So I certainly don't "vote for whoever is being voted on at the moment." Actually, that person seems to be Axxle, whom you neglected to mention here. He voted and unvoted both TINAS and goober.

You didn't "bandwagon", I was mentioning you as a voter. That's why you're less suspicious to me than the other two.

Axxle has basically implied (and so far I believe him) that he was accusing TINAS to draw out information. And he switched from TINAS to Theory, when TINAS was still by far the most popular candidate.

[Axxle]

So I certainly don't "vote for whoever is being voted on at the moment." Actually, that person seems to be Axxle, whom you neglected to mention here. He voted and unvoted both TINAS and goober.

I was the first one to actually vote for TINAS, as O said, primarily to get information from him and other players.  He was the best candidate since people were already accusing him, but since they didn't vote for him I had to take the initiative.  I voted for goober purely because he was not active, to spur him into responding.  After he did so I happily unvoted for him.  There was a point where I suspected TINAS, but that's passed for now.

As for TINAS being townie, you can't just look at what his behavior is, but also the behavior of everyone else.  I feel like the players that voted for him have a little too much conviction.

[Ozle]

Hiya, on a train home now, been out.

Some interesting stuff here and some good work , but I still think TINAS is the most likely candidate until one of the rest of you comes out as more suspicious then ill change my vote and I don't think you have yet. As time goes on though I get let less suspicious of him, so his not being so active is working in his favour it seems!

[ftl]

Ftl, whose playstyle just really bugs me if he's town.

Really? My playstyle bugs you more than, you know, the person who says he screws over his teammates for laughs?

OK, O, can you explain what in TINAS' posts makes you think he has to be town? And also, what we do on day 2 if he's still alive and still acting the same way, but we're likely down to 5 townies? This just seems like a bad situation to me, and I don't feel like I have any reason to think TINAS is more likely to be town (other than straight odds)

Because given the rapid bandwagoning on him, it means that a Mafia member is more likely than not voting for him. Mafia have directed information the first round that townies don't, and thus can easily put their two votes together to sway the vote.

TINAS has not made a desperate accusation of another player (he has said he suspects mafia are voting for him, but has no gone on an all-out-offensive). That is often is characteristic of an accused mafia defending himself.

Hm. Fine, Unvote. I am very likely to reconsider that later if I have a chance to drop the hammer on him, though. I have other suspicions now, but need to reread some old stuff to make sure and don't have time until later today for htat

[goober]

O, I don't disagree that there is likely a mafia or two on the early TINAS bandwagon if he is a townie. If fact I've said a couple times that I am suspicious of theory for exactly that. I would strengthen that suspicion if TINAS turns out to be a townie, and would consider it a legitimate starting point to apply pressure on day 2. Alternatively, we could go for theory right now, but if he's town, then what do we do about TINAS? We could also just wait for more people to create suspicion on themsleves, but why would anyone other than theory and TINAS make a spectacle of themselves at this point, when just lying low means we will almost surely eventually just lynch one either theory or TINAS?

Like most of us I'm getting a little frustrated with TINAS' comments, like "And I was so close. Go for it. I've said all I have to say, just keep it in mind once you know the truth." I mean, that's just not helpful and it seems to be the way most of his posts go. And now we are training him to just be silent to boot (though something tells me that wouldn't continue if he survives the day). I don't think I want to be dealing with his playstyle on day 2, day 3, and I can't see mafia killing him early on if he is town when he is obviously such a lightning rod for suspicion in the town. I think we should decide to kill him or let him live, but then with no carry-over suspicions of him moving forward or we won't be able to do anything but keep focusing on him and eventually kill him later. I don't think I can do that, so I'd like to just kill him now and move on.

[O]

I repeat: It is not how annoying they are if they're townie
It is not how annoying they are if they're townie
It is not how annoying they are if they're townie.


I'd also like to defend TINA's actions in other game: False roleclaiming and other forms of trolling in Mafia are really, really fun, especially in in-person, hour-or-shorter games (in-person is the only form I've played before). It's not a cause for lynching him.

What the town should focus on really is SOLELY how likely a person is to be mafia. And if the townies among you get past your irrational dislike for his playstyle, you'll realize he's more likely than others to be townie due to the bandwagon.

To set an example, I'll change my vote from ftl to Vote:Theory. I think they're equally likely to be mafia and while I dislike FTL's playstyle, I realize my only chance of lynching one of these two is to vote for theory.

[Robz888]

I don't find TINAS annoying. I find him suspicious.

[O]

I don't find TINAS annoying. I find him suspicious.

I don't really believe you.

[theory]

I don't find TINAS annoying. I find him suspicious.

Yes.  "Annoying" is a strawman; I don't think any of us actually voting for TINAS are doing so because he's annoying.  I'm voting for him because his actions do not correlate with that of a townie, as I dutifully explained on page 10.

I find it baffling that the two candidates for a lynch are the person that has been playing suspiciously and a person that is calling him out on it.  I don't consider someone to be mafia because they lay out a clear case for their convictions and are firm in their beliefs; I consider someone mafia when they behave erratically, suspiciously, and out of character for a townie.

[O]

Yes.  "Annoying" is a strawman; I don't think any of us actually voting for TINAS are doing so because he's annoying. 

Why don't you read Goober and Ftl's posts then?

[goober]

Unless I am mistaken that is 4 votes for theory. Just so so one can get away with an "accidental" lynch here.

[Robz888]

Unless I am mistaken that is 4 votes for theory. Just so so one can get away with an "accidental" lynch here.

Who cast the last two votes for him? Bandwagoners! They must be mafia!

[O]

Unless I am mistaken that is 4 votes for theory. Just so so one can get away with an "accidental" lynch here.

Who cast the last two votes for him? Bandwagoners! They must be mafia!

Atrocious sarcasm when if you read my posts I had implicated both FTL and Theory, and that there are actually only 3 votes for theory. 

[Axxle]

Who cast the last two votes for him?

O and I. U have not though. 

[O]

Oops, 4 votes. Didn't remember axxle.

[Axxle]

Unless I am mistaken that is 4 votes for theory. Just so so one can get away with an "accidental" lynch here.

Who cast the last two votes for him? Bandwagoners! They must be mafia!

Atrocious sarcasm when if you read my posts I had implicated both FTL and Theory, and that there are actually only 3 votes for theory. 

There are 4 votes for theory.  Don't get confused now!