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[Thisisnotasmile]

Do you want me to just vote for myself?

[Axxle]

Do you want me to just vote for myself?

That would be hilarious!  If you want to cast the deciding vote instead of me, go right ahead.  Not till later though.  I'd rather you not get lynched, but if we can't get past the suspicion on you we might as well move along.

[Thisisnotasmile]

I've done it many times, but in this case I won't do it, because it's not the right thing to do. If you want me gone, you'll have to do it yourselves.

[popsofctown]

Deadline is May 23rd.  The roles reshuffled on May 13th, and I stipulated a 10 day deadline in the rules.

[goober]

So before Axxle's delayed hammer drops, I'd like to get a comment in. I've got a bit of an issue with Axxle's behavior thusfar, and upon re-reading the thread, I still have an issue with theory.

First, Axxle. I don't like the compliment you gave me back at post #150. Though of course I also think I "really did well" in posting, it seemed a little forced, like you were trying to endear yourself to a guy you know to be a townie. Did other people see that as odd, or am I just so self-depricating that I can't take a normal compliment for what it is? Furthermore, despite apparently liking at least some of my argument, you are back here about to hammer TINAS, which was basically what I was arguing against. You also seem to want to control the behavior of the town in general, complimenting me, telling O how to vote, posting a lot, with a mix of everything from pure jokes to serious analysis of what all roles in the game should do. Basically controlling the conversation, but always with the eventual outcome of promoting the TINAS bandwagon, even though you say you think he is town. I don't get it.

Now theory. Theory's post #177 ,"The lady doth protest too much, methinks.  *sharpens pitchfork*" seems like the sort of thing someone says when they want to make a point in a not entirely serious way, so as not to seem like they are seriously attacking. You have also championed the quick lynch of TINAS with the following justifications, as best I can tell:

#106, apparently for his generally shifty behavior and townie rolecalim; I read it as a serious vote
#111, basically saying any mainly random vote is OK at this point, making your vote seem less serious
#135, saying lynching him as a sacrificial lamb to draw out information is a good idea, allowing you to distance yourself from an eventual reveal of TINAS as townie
#177, which I explained my read of above
Basically it really seems like you are driving this wagon, and are not entirely consistent in your stated motives for doing so.

So my current suspicions are axxle and theory, and I think we should maybe take a look at them if and when TINAS gets lynched, as they have both been promoting it heavily, but also distancing themselves from blame if he turns out to be a townie.

[ftl]

Eh, don't think too much of the compliment. I agreed with it. You made a good post.

#135, saying lynching him as a sacrificial lamb to draw out information is a good idea, allowing you to distance yourself from an eventual reveal of TINAS as townie

Hmm, maybe I should clarify rules - do we find out whether we lynched a townie or a mafia? I thought it would stay secret, there wouldn't be a reveal of TINAS as a townie even if he was.

...I wish TINAS weren't acting so inscrutable. If he's a townie, he should be trying to prove it so he doesn't get lynched... Or maybe he's deliberately deflecting attention from the subtler mafias around.

[ftl]

where by "I should clarify rules" I meant "I should ask for a rules clarification".

[Axxle]

Although I don't think TINAS is mafia, it's also the case that it feels like the town is having a lot of trouble looking past TINAS. We haven't had a good discussion since this morning.  I think our best chance is to lynch him, hope he's mafia, but if not we'll at least see people's reactions and can start up discussion again.

[Axxle]

Also, I should say that although I liked your argument, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with it in it's entirety. I like that you're noticing things I missed and bringing them up and drawing your own conclusions from it instead of following the pack. It gave you a big townie vibe, you're one of the frontrunners for being town.

[goober]

Oh, I thought we did get to see what they were, even if they were a power role townie. When we were signing up I browsed mafiascum.net and that is how it works over there

This made me go back and look at our rules though, and there are a few other odd circumstances that aren't totally clear to me. 

1. Apparently we are allowed to talk before we get lynched but after the hammer. Are we allowed to make serious posts about the game, or just say "goodbye and good luck"? Could a lynched cop or jailer reveal intel at this point?

2. There seems to be a "random kill" clause for inept mafia. I assume that if one of them is jailed, they lose the random kill, or at least get only a 1/2 shot at it?

Care to clarify pops?

[ftl]

1. Apparently we are allowed to talk before we get lynched but after the hammer. Are we allowed to make serious posts about the game, or just say "goodbye and good luck"? Could a lynched cop or jailer reveal intel at this point?

The way I understood was that the lynching "officially" happens when pops comes in and says it happens. If Axxle came in and voted TINAS right now, it wouldn't be up to us to tally the votes and say "OK TINAS is dead now no more talking", it would happen when pops says it happens, and up until that point TINAS could continue digging his grave and talking about how he doesn't care if he's lynched or about fun times when he screwed over his townie team for laughs.

2. There seems to be a "random kill" clause for inept mafia. I assume that if one of them is jailed, they lose the random kill, or at least get only a 1/2 shot at it?

Good question. I suspect it's not going to matter, everyone here is pretty responsive and so the mafias should be able to figure out a single PM.

[goober]

Axxle-

Of course you can agree with some of my thoughts and disagree with others. But while we're both active I'd like to press you a bit about this TINAS lynch. To me it doesn't seem like we've reached a dead end to the day and should just proceed to a lynch, though maybe that's just because all that "inactivity" happened while I wasn't watching. I'm curious what you think we'll learn from lynching TINAS before we see many other posts. I don't think we can get much from reactions after the fact, but that the real info comes from what was said BEFORE the lynch, in the form of who was piling on and who was defending. For example, as I tried to convey in may last post, it would add to my suspicions of you and theory if we lynch TINAS and he turns up town. And it seems to me like if he turns up mafia I would be suspected. What do you think we stand to learn from the lynch?

And for ftl, weird circumstance #1 was more for later in the game, when a power role townie may actually have something useful to say like factual information about what happened at night, I just wanted to clear it up now.

[O]

...I wish TINAS weren't acting so inscrutable. If he's a townie, he should be trying to prove it so he doesn't get lynched... Or maybe he's deliberately deflecting attention from the subtler mafias around.

Lynching people because they play poorly is.. well... poor play, ironically.

I also find your desire for town's success a bit.. poorly acted.

I have very little doubt now that TINAS is not mafia. I think most people actually agree with me. I also plead for people to realize that a random lynching is NOT helpful if we're pretty confident that they're townie. I strongly urge others to consider going against the bandwagon, which is almost positively mafia fueled, meaning we're almost certainly lynching a townie.

[popsofctown]

If the mafia fails to pm, the choice of who carries out the kill will be randomized. 

Lynched and nightkilled players will have their alignments and roles revealed.

You can post anything during "twilight" after the lynch but before I officialize it.  Claiming your role and claiming results is not "special posting" and is still allowed. 
In case it wasn't clear, all players, not just the lynched player, can speak during twilight. 

On that note, you are not to post anything at all once you are dead, not even "Bah go town" or "Bah".

[Axxle]

Ok, glad Diablo distracted me.  I will not hammer TINAS at this moment in time.  I'm glad people are coming around about that.  I didn't want to be a liar.

My reads so far:
TINAS is probably town.  Mafia has a good chance of being the voters since otherwise he would have gotten hammered quicker, i think.

O is definitely town.  He was a lone voice in defending TINAS before goober chimed in (IIRC)

goober is most likely town.  He has a level head and doesn't afraid of anything.

theory is my top pick for mafia, a little too much of a lynch-mongerer

Ozle is my second pick for mafia, too opportunistic

ftl's #205 inscrutable comment makes some red flags pop up that weren't there before, mostly since he has a vote on him already.

Robz888's #178 indicates that he thought he was hammering TINAS.  It sounds like he has good reasons for doing so.  I'm starting to think he's mafiaish too.

Davio is saying some things he probably shouldn't as a town.  His comments about how suspicion of TINAS will affect the game if left alive is flawed, he might just not be familiar with certain aspects of the game but there that is.  He's also anxious to get the day over with and someone lynched (I know, I know, I am too).

So...
Strong Mafia:
Theory
Ozle

Weak Mafia:
Robz
ftl

Weak town:
Davio

Mid town:
TINAS

Strong town:
goober

Certain town:
O

Ultimately, if no information is added at all, I'm fine with lynching anyone but goober and O.

[Axxle]

Actually bump TINAS up to Certain Town.  The biggest reason I made a delayed vote was to see how people would react, and looking back at the thread TINAS seemed to genuinely not care if he was lynched or not even after I made my comment.

[goober]

Thanks for the clarifications pops, and thanks for modi'ing.

This rules discussion got me thinking, and I propose that we adopt the arrangement that we will NOT hammer a player before telling them it's about to happen (at least after the first night) and forcing them to respond with a roleclaim and all information they may have gathered with said role and/or final insights they think might be helpful even if they are just vanilla town. We then have two options:

We can just go ahead and lynch, and if they are who they said they were we at least learn all that they know and think. Even little stuff like a jailkeeper who has had two nights to detain folks and has yet to stop the nightkill or a cop who knows one person who is vanilla town would be of value. Obviously a dying cop shouldn't reveal a town power role as that just gets them night killed. As far as I can tell, this arrangement is a strict benefit to the town in every circumstance (over the surprise lynch scenario). It just gives us more information that we can then decide what to do with.

Alternatively, we can rethink the lynch based on what they role-claim, but then things get complicated and I think would have to be handled on a case by case basis, based on the surrounding circumstances. I would probably be of the opinion to just lynch anyway in most cases, as we probably voted for a lynch for good reason in the first place, but I'd be open to hearing arguments against this when the time comes.

The point I'm trying to make is that we shouldn't EVER lynch anyone without forcing a role-claim and last words out of them. This also has the side benefit of allowing the about-to-die player a chance to say any pleasantries they deem appropriate before being silenced by pops. Does this make sense to others?

[goober]

Axxle, I just can't get my head around what you are doing. I don't get how yo can now call TINAS "Certain Town". We can all see that he was obviously acting suspiciously, it just seems that a majority of us thought this was not necessarily a scumtell. It certainly isn't a towntell as I see it. It's just erratic. Do you think his "go ahead and lynch" response to your impending hammer is a towntell? And if so could you explain your reasoning a little? I have to clarify one other thing with you as well, just so I have it straight, would you have hammered if no one had posted anything?

[Axxle]

Do you think his "go ahead and lynch" response to your impending hammer is a towntell?

Yes, if he was a town role or mafia I would think he would have tried to accuse someone else or delay his sentence.  "Certain" is too strong a word, but strong words usually help to persuade people.

And if so could you explain your reasoning a little? I have to clarify one other thing with you as well, just so I have it straight, would you have hammered if no one had posted anything?

If noone including TINAS didn't post anything? yes.  If TINAS posted? Not if I went back and reread what he said.

[goober]

Fair enough. I appreciate the direct responses, Axxle. We may just have different styles of arguing. I'm done for the night, but I'm excited to see what's posted tomorrow. It's frustrating to miss out on the main flurries of activity. Maybe in future games we can organize by availability schedules.

[Robz888]

ABOUT TINAS: I'm not sure when the consensus changed from "TINAS is most likely to be mafia" to "TINAS is no more suspicious than anyone else" and then on to "TINAS is the most innocent person to ever play the game."

I haven't changed my mind about TINAS, and I would be interested to know why others have. It seems to me he has behaved exactly like a mafia caught because of his not-so-great responses to off-the-fly accusations. I mean, we all agreed he was suspicious to begin with, right? That's why he got a few votes. And he hasn't in my view acquitted himself well since then. He offered to vote for himself when it looked decided, and then when Axxle took him up on that immediately, he declined to do so. To me, that looks like a desperate mafia trying to inject last minute doubt that he is actually mafia, "I'll just vote for myself." Then Axxle said, yeah sure go ahead. And he didn't.

And then he basically went very quiet. Everything he has said has incriminated himself, so now he is trying not talking. And it looks like that is working! Because people are moving on to other suspects.

The only thing that gives me real pause about TINAS is what goober said about him being sort of confrontational-ish in other threads, which is something I have observed.

[O]

Actually bump TINAS up to Certain Town.  The biggest reason I made a delayed vote was to see how people would react, and looking back at the thread TINAS seemed to genuinely not care if he was lynched or not even after I made my comment.

Axxle and I pretty clearly have similar strategic first-day styles. It makes me feel like he's more likely to be town, but he could also just be far better than I am at this game and pick this strategy even though he's mafia...

[O]

ABOUT TINAS: I'm not sure when the consensus changed from "TINAS is most likely to be mafia" to "TINAS is no more suspicious than anyone else" and then on to "TINAS is the most innocent person to ever play the game."
[quote/]

It's a pretty basic rule of mafia: The first person to have a bandwagon vote against them is 90% of the time not mafia, barring obvious tells. And since we all are playing for the first time with eachother, it seems like we can pretty much rule out obvious tells..

[Robz888]

The point I'm trying to make is that we shouldn't EVER lynch anyone without forcing a role-claim and last words out of them. This also has the side benefit of allowing the about-to-die player a chance to say any pleasantries they deem appropriate before being silenced by pops. Does this make sense to others?

I believe I said this earlier (and I said it like 18 times in my other mafia game)--we must not lynch a power role townie, and if it is clear that we are about to do so, that townie should reveal his role so that we can take back the votes, assuming his claim is credible. This is not great, because we don't want the mafia to learn this, but it is preferable to killing that useful person ourselves. So I strongly, strongly, strongly agree with goober here, and I think I already said this.

[O]

ABOUT TINAS: I'm not sure when the consensus changed from "TINAS is most likely to be mafia" to "TINAS is no more suspicious than anyone else" and then on to "TINAS is the most innocent person to ever play the game."

It's a pretty basic rule of mafia: The first person to have a bandwagon vote against them is 90% of the time not mafia, barring obvious tells. And since we all are playing for the first time with eachother, it seems like we can pretty much rule out obvious tells..

repost since I screwed up the quote box the first time and can't edit..