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[ednever]

I was reading through old posts and came across an interesting thread. The idea was to go to councilroom and look up the set of 10 cards you have the worst (and best) win rate with. If you had all ten of these cards in one kingdom, how would you play it?

(I looked for it again and can't find it- would be great if someone who knows where it is links to it)

I think it's worth reviving given the growth of this forum. I'll post mine below. I think it would be great to get feedback from other players on what you are doing right/wrong when you play these sets.

(Note: The biggest flaw I see in this is changing ability. For example I think I play Bishop pretty well now, but for a LONG time I played it terribly - and these stats go back to when I first started I believe).

So here goes my sets:

My worst set:

$4P Golem
$4 Noble Brigand, Bishop, Silk Road, Island
$3 Great Hall, Tunnel, Black Market
$2 Cellar, Lighthouse

(Black Market would include my next 15 worst cards I guess: Chancellor, Moat, Embargo, Oasis, Menagerie, Bazaar, Horse Traders, Moneylender, Ill-Gotten Gains, Watchtower, Cartographer, Explorer, Walled Village, Envoy, Courtyard)

(Obviously I was bad at alt-VP, Big Money and defending against attacks...)

HOW I WOULD PLAY IT:
With Great Hall, Island, Tunnel and Silk Roads it's a crazy alt-VP set with Silk Roads as the linch-pin. However there doesn't seem to be any cards that facilitate a rush.
I think I would open Silver-Island. Pick up a second Island after I've used the first (so there is zero chance of overlap). Pick up one more Silver and then switch to Great Halls on $3, Silk Roads on $4+ and Estates on $2 (Coppers otherwise). Then watch VP totals very carefully and manage the piles (assuming my opponent is doing a mirror).

Is there anything else viable here?
Are my tactics at all close to right?
I've lost way too many Silk Road splits by not going in fast enough. Do I need that second Silver?


My Best Set:

$8 Peddler
$7 King's Court
$6 Goons
$5 Torturer
$4 Coppersmith, Feast, Jack of all Trades, Remake, Salvager, Baron

How I would play it:
Very challenging set to play I think. Goons is normally my go-to, but here there are no villages and the only cantrip is Peddler which means only one play per turn - which makes dominating with Goons a lot more difficult.

You also always have to closely examine King's Court for some sort of spammable action. The first thing I look for a drawer (So you can hit KC-KC-Smithy-KC-KC-KC... Play all actions 3 times each...). Here the only option is Torturer (which is not a bad option). Torturer chains themselves don't work without multiple actions (again - KC does this in a way, but because the other guy sees it coming they can take two curses then discard them)

I think my play would be to set up a mega turn that looks like this:

(1) KC-KC-Torturer-Peddler-Peddler (left with 15 cards in hand, $6 and 6 actions)
(2) Play a ton of Goons (I think 4 would do)
(3) Buy up a bunch of stuff, end the game on piles with a ton of VP tokens

The challenge would be to get there before a double-Jack strategy took down all the provinces. Not sure if I could do it fast enough given the costs of all those cards (and the need to get a bunch of them so you get the right initial hand with KC, KC and T), but I would definitely give it a try.

The good news is I do have facilitators to help: Remake/Silver is the key open. Definitely picking up a second Remake. Changing Estates into Silvers and killing two coppers at a time. When the deck has been thinned turning the Remake into a Torturer (and depending on draws the Torturer into a Goons.

I think the second goal is to connect a KC and a Goons. This plays 4 cards and brings Peddlers down to free (with 4 buys). Pick up three of them and another KC. Sometime around then use Remake to turn a silver into a Salvager. You Salvage the Peddlers one by one to get the rest of your engine built.

It would definitely be a fun deck to pull off and while it would take some luck to get the mega turn, I think with the trashing from Remake it's definitely doable. It's just a question of whether it could beat Jack to 8 Provinces.

(If you played the double-Jack BM strategy - would you trash your provinces so they wouldn't slow you down? It would be ballsy (I've never seen anyone do it), but it might be the way to beat my mega-engine. You would just have to watch to make sure the few Goon's VP I am picking up doesn't let me end the game prematurely before the mega turn)


Thoughts on this one?

I would love to see how others do with this exercise.

Kirian: It might even be fun to have a tournament with these. Every player comes with two Kingdoms that people play each other with in a round-robin or something...

Ed

[greatexpectations]

(I looked for it again and can't find it- would be great if someone who knows where it is links to it)

Evaluate your best and worst board

[HiveMindEmulator]

(Note: The biggest flaw I see in this is changing ability. For example I think I play Bishop pretty well now, but for a LONG time I played it terribly - and these stats go back to when I first started I believe).

Yeah, there should be a way to filter by game date...

Is there anything else viable here?

Cellar + Tunnel?

[DG]

My best set is now an interesting develop kingdom. The tactician pile might empty!

Border Village, Bureaucrat, Develop, Grand market, Lookout, Mining Village, Sea Hag Spy, Tactician, Village

[Papa Luigi]

Best:

$5 - Ill-Gotten Gains, Library
$4 - Baron, Militia, Sea Hag, Thief, Treasure Map, Young Witch
$3 - Black Market, Wishing Well

It's notable that with several of these cards, I do significantly better when I DON'T buy/gain them than when I do. I've never actually bought or gained a Wishing Well, ever, in all the time I've played on Isotropic. I've only played with Treasure Map once, and it worked, but since then I've ignored it. I've done a few IGG games and almost always do well.

For the above kingdom I'm not sure what I'd do. IGG rush is an option but I'd be concerned about the other player(s) picking up Sea Hag or Young Witch and causing the Curses and the IGGs to get "out of sync." There's no trashing and no reactions so I'd want to give out the other Curses before I get them. With a multiplayer game, I'd probably go IGG + Young Witch.

Worst:

$5 - Cartographer, Margrave, Merchant Ship, Rabble, Upgrade
$4 - Envoy, Navigator, Salvager
$3P - Apothecary
$2 - Duchess

Apparently I suck at using actions that improve or mess up the top of your deck. I have no idea how I'd play this one. Actually, anyone have tips?

[ednever]

My best set is now an interesting develop kingdom. The tactician pile might empty!

Border Village, Bureaucrat, Develop, Grand market, Lookout, Mining Village, Sea Hag Spy, Tactician, Village

Cool set. Open Sea Hag/Lookout (get rid of coppers/incoming curses). Pick up a second Hag.
The transition to Develop. Sea Hag-> Tactician/Develop. Tactician-> BV+T/MV, and then to Grand Market/MV

This would be very fun if you got it to work. Might have to worry about piles before your GM mega turn (Not only will Tactician be emptied, I'll bet Duchies and Develops will too)

Ed

[ednever]

Best:

$5 - Ill-Gotten Gains, Library
$4 - Baron, Militia, Sea Hag, Thief, Treasure Map, Young Witch
$3 - Black Market, Wishing Well

It's notable that with several of these cards, I do significantly better when I DON'T buy/gain them than when I do. I've never actually bought or gained a Wishing Well, ever, in all the time I've played on Isotropic. I've only played with Treasure Map once, and it worked, but since then I've ignored it. I've done a few IGG games and almost always do well.

For the above kingdom I'm not sure what I'd do. IGG rush is an option but I'd be concerned about the other player(s) picking up Sea Hag or Young Witch and causing the Curses and the IGGs to get "out of sync." There's no trashing and no reactions so I'd want to give out the other Curses before I get them. With a multiplayer game, I'd probably go IGG + Young Witch.

Worst:

$5 - Cartographer, Margrave, Merchant Ship, Rabble, Upgrade
$4 - Envoy, Navigator, Salvager
$3P - Apothecary
$2 - Duchess

Apparently I suck at using actions that improve or mess up the top of your deck. I have no idea how I'd play this one. Actually, anyone have tips?

For your best set:
I think you can supplement the cursers with IGG but it won't be a rush (since you won't want to empty the pile when the curses are gone - which they will be).

For your worse:
I think there is a play here for Apothecary/Cartographer/Margrave. Use A to pull the coppers into your hand. Use C to dump the green that builds up. Then draw with the M (and get the +1 buy). Use the extra buy on coppers at the start (and engine pieces). Eventually you should be able to pull off double province turns with just copper...

Ed

[chwhite]

That was one of my favorite threads and I'm glad to see it come back.  And since my numbers have changed over time, might as well do it again.

My best set:
$8 Peddler
$6P Possession
$6 Adventurer
$5 Ghost Ship
$4 Bishop, Walled Village, Tournament, Remake
$3 Smugglers, Menagerie

Goons was a part of my top ten until... I don't know, possibly yesterday.  Its absence is surprising and changes things.  Anyway, I'm pretty sure that Remake/Silver, leading into lots of Menageries and Tournaments and (later on) one or two Bishops is going to be the winning strategy here.  Possession is too slow and is countered by Bishop/Followers; Ghost Ship is countered by Menagerie.  The lack of +Buy dings Peddler but I could imagine buying one on the odd Remake turn, and/or with Princess.  I might pick up a Walled Village later on if I happen to get Followers but not Steed, or if my opponent goes Possession and I lay into the Bishops as a counter.  Smugglers is probably a bad decision here, Adventurer fills its usual role of turning the board into a 9-card Kingdom.

By the way, I think it's hilarious that Adventurer is my highest "win rate given available" while also being my third least-bought card and also IMO either the second or third-worst card in the game. 

Worst board:

$6 Farmland
$5 Governor, Margrave, Mandarin
$4 Noble Brigand, Trader
$3 Woodcutter, Tunnel
$2 Duchess, Herbalist

Seven of those cards are from Hinterlands, yow.  I have to assume that mass Governors are going to win this one, possibly also tacking on a Margrave for +buy and to eliminate the advantage you give your opponent of all these +Card Governors.  Though if I did that my opponent might lay into the Tunnels and get a deck full of Gold.  But even though I'm sure Governor s the power card in this set, that's not going to help me because playing Governor well is one thing I have simply never been able to do.

Most of the other cards I'd just ignore, though I'm sure Farmland might have some endgame utility.  Maybe Mandarin/Gov on a 5/2 split?  Probably not.  Would Noble Brigand spam stand a chance?  I wouldn't try it.  The only cards here I really feel incompetent with are Governor, Noble Brigand, and Farmland, but obviously I'm missing things for many of them.

[toaster]

I mentioned this in the last thread, but as a feature request, I think it'd be great to have the card/expansion win rate statistics available on a 30 or 90 day window in addition to the lifetime stats we have now.  As is, I find that in my own rankings, the Hinterlands cards primarily serve as a proxy for my win rate since November, which has on the whole been lower than in my plays previous to that because I've been played more competitively and seeking out tougher games in recent months.

It'd be useful to have this sort of fixed time cut-off to eliminate the confounding factor of skill/play preference change over time.

[flies]

Worst:
$5 Explorer, Highway, Inn, Vault
$4 Monument, Scout
$3P Familiar
$3 Oasis, Oracle
$2P Scrying Pool
Open Potion/silver, going for fam (SP consolation prize) and monument in first reshuffle, then money/vault, looking to buy Inn when I can spam familiars and monument.  I'd probably skip silver in favor of oasis on the assumption that curses will feed the oases.  With Fam and no trashing, I'd say leaning on SP is out, even though there's decent virtual money here.  Of course, if I manage to win the curse race, SP becomes more attractive.  If I lose, rely on vaults.

Best:
$6P Possession
$6 Grand Market, Border Village
$5 Market, Minion
$4 Envoy, Navigator, Noble Brigand
$3 Ambassador, Shanty Town
My "effect without" is higher than my "effect with" on most of these cards

	Effect with	Effect without
Possession	-2.21	2.43
Shanty Town	-0.06	2.21
Navigator	-1.82	1.94
Border Village	0.89	2.22

The only exceptions are Market, Ambassador, and Minion (the latter two being even within statistics!). 
I'd open Ambassador/silver and go for minions.  Since I'd be skipping gold, so I'd probably get BV+minion when I had $6 including copper, so I'd get an envoy.  Unfortunately, this strategy is extremely vulnerable to possession.  Im' tempted to allow my opponent to get the minions, go Envoy BM myself, plus possession, but such a reactive strategy seems bound to fail. 

What would you do on this board?

[cayvie]

My best:

8: Peddler
5: Wharf, Council Room, Duke
4: Salvager, Silk Road, Quarry, Ironworks, Tournament
2: Secret Chamber

My randomizer came up 9, so it's not a Colony game.

Honestly, Ironworks/Silk Road seems pretty obvious here. Boring.

My worst:

5: Cache, Saboteur, Rabble, Inn
4: Talisman, Nomad Camp
3: Tunnel, Shanty Town
2: Duchess

Also not a colony game.

What, big money rabble? Open silver/silver?

[Wingnut]

My worst:

5: Cache, Saboteur, Rabble, Inn
4: Talisman, Nomad Camp
3: Tunnel, Shanty Town
2: Duchess

Also not a colony game.

What, big money rabble? Open silver/silver?

Open Silver/Silver then transition to Inn/Tunnel. Because Rabble topdecks opposing Tunnels I don't like it much here.

[AJD]

My highest "win rate given avail":

$6P Possession
$5 Ill-Gotten Gains, Highway, Cache, Stables
$4 Spice Merchant, Trader
$3 Menagerie
$2 Duchess, Chapel

Strategy here... IGG rush could be a bad idea if my opponent buys a Trader. I think I might open Trader/Chapel; there's not much of an engine to put together here, but I want a chapel in case I get cursed, and later on Stables will help me line up Chapel with curses. On $5, I'd buy IGG if my opponent didn't have a Trader, or if I'd already seen it this reshuffle; otherwise Stables, with maybe a Cache thrown in as well. Possession is probably a mug's game here.

Worst win rate given avail:
$6 Hoard
$5 Merchant Ship, City
$4 Navigator, Quarry, Worker's Village, Envoy, Island, Bishop
$3P Familiar

I guess I'd... open Silver/Potion to get in on the Familiar race; thereafter get Silver instead of Bishop on $4 turns for a little while in hopes that I'll be able to piggyback trashing off my opponent's Bishop. Merchant Ship with my first $5; City thereafter as the Curses start running out; and I'll want a Bishop eventually. Should I get an Envoy?

[Wingnut]

Seeing either of these kingdoms come up would elicit painful reactions from most, but here we go.

Best Kingdom
5 - Highway
4 - Jack of All Trades
4 - Noble Brigand
4 - Nomad Camp
4 - Envoy
3P - Familiar
3 - Ambassador
3 - Fishing Village
3 - Menagerie
2 - Duchess

I have no idea what to do here. None. Whatsoever. Maybe Envoy-BM or DoubleJack (probably DoubleJack with Familiar out) though Some sort of Disappearing Village/Jack/Menagerie engine out of Amb seems viable. I might play that (and lose with it) just because it's more fun to try and make work.

Worst Kingdom
5 - Hunting Party
5 - Embassy
5 - Mint
5 - Margrave
5 - Apprentice
5 - Mine
4 - Bridge
4 - Pirate Ship
3P - Philsopher's Stone
2P - Scrying Pool


My idea here: Go home and cry at the sight of this. Hunting Party is my least favorite card in all of Dominion and Embassy and Scrying Pool are right behind. Most of my low win rate with those cards is my refusal to play the boring strategies they enable.

Any ideas from the crowd on how to play either of these?

[ldog1976]

My opinion on your Worst Kingdom is go big money / hunting party. 

Hunting Party can skip the junk, but you can buy a Mint to quickly increase your gold.  HP is my fav card in the game!  Seems to work well for me.

5 - Hunting Party
5 - Embassy
5 - Mint
5 - Margrave
5 - Apprentice
5 - Mine
4 - Bridge
4 - Pirate Ship
3P - Philsopher's Stone
2P - Scrying Pool

[chwhite]

Seeing either of these kingdoms come up would elicit painful reactions from most, but here we go.

Best Kingdom
5 - Highway
4 - Jack of All Trades
4 - Noble Brigand
4 - Nomad Camp
4 - Envoy
3P - Familiar
3 - Ambassador
3 - Fishing Village
3 - Menagerie
2 - Duchess

I have no idea what to do here. None. Whatsoever. Maybe Envoy-BM or DoubleJack (probably DoubleJack with Familiar out) though Some sort of Disappearing Village/Jack/Menagerie engine out of Amb seems viable. I might play that (and lose with it) just because it's more fun to try and make work.

Worst Kingdom
5 - Hunting Party
5 - Embassy
5 - Mint
5 - Margrave
5 - Apprentice
5 - Mine
4 - Bridge
4 - Pirate Ship
3P - Philsopher's Stone
2P - Scrying Pool


My idea here: Go home and cry at the sight of this. Hunting Party is my least favorite card in all of Dominion and Embassy and Scrying Pool are right behind. Most of my low win rate with those cards is my refusal to play the boring strategies they enable.

Any ideas from the crowd on how to play either of these?

For your first kingdom, I think the obvious play is to open double Ambassador (or arguably Ambassador/Fishing Village), and definitely do the Fishing Village/Menagerie/Ambassador madness thing.  I'll also want to get Nomad Camp (+buy is super crucial here!), Highway, and maybe even an Envoy or two, and work up to multi-Province turns.  This should definitely beat Familiar and DoubleJack, with the caveat that beating DoubleJack may require buying and passing Curses to slow them down.

Hunting Party spam seems like the obvious choice at first for your Worst kingdom, though Margrave is a pretty strong counter (and doesn't integrate well with the HPs).  I suspect that on 4/3 I go for the Parties anyway, with Bridge as my terminal and maybe also buying an Apprentice; on 5/2 I probably open Margrave and possibly get HPs anyway but also possibly get an Embassy instead and go BM.

Also, Scrying Pool strategies are far from boring.  Though they're probably not the best move here.   

[qmech]

Best set
$5 Inn, Counting House, Mountebank, Merchant Ship, Cache
$4 Young Witch, Feast
$3P Philosopher's Stone
$3 Wishing Well
$2 Courtyard

Next on the list is Black Market, which I guess is the Bane.  And if I'm going to do this properly, the Black Market deck has Develop, Harvest, Swindler, Lookout, Vault, Workshop, Apprentice, Herbalist, Caravan, Secret Chamber, Grand Market, Ironworks, Salvager, Quarry and Saboteur.  No Colonies.

Two things stand out: Cursing, and excellent Counting House support.  I probably open Young Witch/Black Market, as there are a few handy trashers in the the BM (Mountebank/Nothing on 5/2).  Then aim for Caches and a single Counting House, hoping to make Inn/Counting House work a few times.  This set's not at all clear though.

Worst set
$6 Harem
$5 Governor, Margrave, Highway, Mint
$4 Spice Merchant, Envoy
$3 Oracle, Steward
$2 Pearl Diver

Steward/Spice Merchant to Governors (Governor/Nothing on 5/2).  Probably a single Margrave, but it's not obvious whether it can be used for Governor draw shenanigans.

[ednever]

My worst:

5: Cache, Saboteur, Rabble, Inn
4: Talisman, Nomad Camp
3: Tunnel, Shanty Town
2: Duchess

Also not a colony game.

What, big money rabble? Open silver/silver?

Open Silver/Silver then transition to Inn/Tunnel. Because Rabble topdecks opposing Tunnels I don't like it much here.

Or nomad camp on a 4/3 hoping got a $5 turn 2 and an early inn (then get a tunnel on turn 3)

On a 3/4 I would pick up a shanty town/silver to increase deck cycling and the chances of inn/tunnel colliding when they are in place. With tunnel and a good enabler you should never have to buy more than one silver.

Ed