Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[mDuo13]

Suppose your opponent (or one of your opponents if it's a 3+ game) already has just over half of each of the Victory cards available in his deck. (For example, he has 4 Provinces, 4 Duchies, 4 Great Halls, and 5+3 Estates in a non-Propserity 2-player game.) You know that your opponent won't make any obvious play mistakes to give you the game, such as trashing his own VP cards for less value.

If you want to continue playing as long as it's still possible to win, as long as any chance of victory exists with perfect shuffle luck and perfect play on your part, what cards and strategies do you look for?

Come up with as many solutions as possible.

Here's everything I can think of:

* VP chips: Monument, Bishop, Goons.
* Curse-givers: As long as you can get the remaining almost-half of all VP cards and deal out more than half the curses, you can win. I won't bother listing every cursing attack possible.
* Variable-value Kingdom VP cards: Gardens, Fairgrounds, Vineyards. If you can make yours worth more than his, then you can win with less than half of the VP cards. Unfortunately, Silk Roads and Dukes don't work, since you can't get more supporting VP cards than he does.
* Masquerade: There's some chance he'll draw an all-green hand and have no choice but to pass one to you. Bonus: make it more likely with Minion. Or go for a KC/Masquerade pin.
* Possession + Ambassador: Make him return green cards to you.
* Saboteur: Destroy his VP cards and replace them with lower-denomination cards. Bonus: make it more likely to hit high-value cards using Highways/Bridges
* Swindler: Convert his VP cards into non-VP cards. (Duchies to $5 actions, Provinces to Peddlers) Bonus: use Highways/Bridges and Swindle things into Coppers or Curses.

[jimjam]

Thief: Steal Harems and devalue Gardens.
Noble Brigand similar but much harder to use (only takes Silver,Gold, gives Copper).

[ycz6]

There are a couple of non-Masquerade pins you can use to force a draw. KC-Scheme-Bureaucrat comes to mind. I guess you could call this "perpetual check."

[O]

There are a couple of non-Masquerade pins you can use to force a draw. KC-Scheme-Bureaucrat comes to mind. I guess you could call this "perpetual check."

They buy coppers, breaking your pin, no?

[Deadlock39]

No, buying Coppers won't save you from KC,KC,KC,Scheme,Scheme,Scheme,Bureaucrat,Bureaucrat.  If your opponent can set that up, you will be forced to place 6 victory cards back on top of your deck each turn.  Once you have 5 in your hand, you will simply draw those 5 victory cards every turn and be forced to put them back.

Fortunately, this pin is also countered by its own components, since having KC,KC,Scheme,Scheme,<Any Action> will prevent you from ever having victory cards in your starting hand.

[O]

No, buying Coppers won't save you from KC,KC,KC,Scheme,Scheme,Scheme,Bureaucrat,Bureaucrat.  If your opponent can set that up, you will be forced to place 6 victory cards back on top of your deck each turn.  Once you have 5 in your hand, you will simply draw those 5 victory cards every turn and be forced to put them back.

Fortunately, this pin is also countered by its own components, since having KC,KC,Scheme,Scheme,<Any Action> will prevent you from ever having victory cards in your starting hand.

Doh! Was thinking discard.

[jomini]

A very annoying trick:
Swindler can destroy provinces IFF the province stack runs out. When the game gets down to the last turn you may be able to mass swindle and burn a few provinces. For instance let's say you build a KC/spy/swindler/draw deck and you get something like 4 spies and 12 swindles. After the last province -> province swindle, you can just trash the provinces. This, obviously, works much better with TR/KC/Golem/outpost and works much better against a lean deck (it is quite possible for KC/swindler engines to swindle every card in the opponent's deck). Most of the time, this hail Mary fails badly, but every now and again you can burn 30 points + and win (swindle all their provinces but one into nothing, all their duchies into 5's and buy 3 duchies for the win)

[WanderingWinder]

A very annoying trick:
Swindler can destroy provinces IFF the province stack runs out. When the game gets down to the last turn you may be able to mass swindle and burn a few provinces. For instance let's say you build a KC/spy/swindler/draw deck and you get something like 4 spies and 12 swindles. After the last province -> province swindle, you can just trash the provinces. This, obviously, works much better with TR/KC/Golem/outpost and works much better against a lean deck (it is quite possible for KC/swindler engines to swindle every card in the opponent's deck). Most of the time, this hail Mary fails badly, but every now and again you can burn 30 points + and win (swindle all their provinces but one into nothing, all their duchies into 5's and buy 3 duchies for the win)

Swindler can also destroy provinces if there's something else that costs the same as them - either peddlers or $8 in cost reduction from some combination of bridge/highway/princess

[mDuo13]

wow, I'm impressed with some of the answers people have come up with here!

As for winning by a pin, though, I think that, in the absence of any of the other solutions mentioned here, you may or may not be able to actually "win" the game by performing a pin. If any non-$0 pile runs out, then your opponent will be able to end the game eventually by buying out the Coppers and Curses; in that case, then it depends whether he was so far ahead he can afford the -VP from Curses. If no other pile runs out, then the game's basically in a stalemate.

If you were in this situation with your life on the line, I guess it depends on whether your captors were nice enough to acknowledge the stalemate as a tie and give you another chance.

[popsofctown]

TIL Scheme is KC-able.

[O]

KC/Scheme/Bureaucrat doesn't work; it empties the silver pile. Unless buying curses puts them below you, they can end it (depends on interpretation of "half the vp" I guess)

[ycz6]

If any non-$0 pile runs out, then your opponent will be able to end the game eventually by buying out the Coppers and Curses; in that case, then it depends whether he was so far ahead he can afford the -VP from Curses.

KC/Scheme/Bureaucrat doesn't work; it empties the silver pile. Unless buying curses puts them below you, they can end it (depends on interpretation of "half the vp" I guess)

Good points! We will have to Ambassador two Silvers back to the supply at the end of every turn.

[Axxle]

Good points! We will have to Ambassador two Silvers back to the supply at the end of every turn.

You'd still run out of silver (Although only half as fast) since now you're just moving it to your opponent's deck.

[jomini]

A very annoying trick:
Swindler can destroy provinces IFF the province stack runs out. When the game gets down to the last turn you may be able to mass swindle and burn a few provinces. For instance let's say you build a KC/spy/swindler/draw deck and you get something like 4 spies and 12 swindles. After the last province -> province swindle, you can just trash the provinces. This, obviously, works much better with TR/KC/Golem/outpost and works much better against a lean deck (it is quite possible for KC/swindler engines to swindle every card in the opponent's deck). Most of the time, this hail Mary fails badly, but every now and again you can burn 30 points + and win (swindle all their provinces but one into nothing, all their duchies into 5's and buy 3 duchies for the win)

Swindler can also destroy provinces if there's something else that costs the same as them - either peddlers or $8 in cost reduction from some combination of bridge/highway/princess

Yes, but that is swindling a province -> copper, much more elegant than just destroying it for lack of a replacement card at the correct value.

[WanderingWinder]

A very annoying trick:
Swindler can destroy provinces IFF the province stack runs out. When the game gets down to the last turn you may be able to mass swindle and burn a few provinces. For instance let's say you build a KC/spy/swindler/draw deck and you get something like 4 spies and 12 swindles. After the last province -> province swindle, you can just trash the provinces. This, obviously, works much better with TR/KC/Golem/outpost and works much better against a lean deck (it is quite possible for KC/swindler engines to swindle every card in the opponent's deck). Most of the time, this hail Mary fails badly, but every now and again you can burn 30 points + and win (swindle all their provinces but one into nothing, all their duchies into 5's and buy 3 duchies for the win)

Swindler can also destroy provinces if there's something else that costs the same as them - either peddlers or $8 in cost reduction from some combination of bridge/highway/princess

Yes, but that is swindling a province -> copper, much more elegant than just destroying it for lack of a replacement card at the correct value.

Not in the peddler case. In any case, I was quibbling over your misuse of IFF. And now you're arguing elegance...

[jomini]

WW: mostly, I'm just saying that I was using "destroy" to differentiate from the peddler case or the mass cost reduction case. You are completely right that all of them have the same effect and should be considered. My IFF point is that if you swindle provinces into nothing then you don't replace a card in their deck and was using "destroy" in hopes of conveying that distinction. The distinction is marginally important when dealing with reshuffles during the final turn.

[jomini]

Also on the idea of a perpetual pin here is a convoluted, but possible one (not ever useful in a real game):
KC/Gov/cutpurse/minion

Play KC/Gov to draw all THEIR cards. Play KC/Cutpurse to move 5 coppers into their discard. Play gov for cards (they now have 4 coppers in their draw deck). Play minion for 4 cards (you need to have something like only KC/KC/Cutpurse/Cutpurse left in hand). Now play 4 cutpurses. You leave your opponent with no cards to play.

They can, in theory, break this by stockpiling enough curses & coppers that you cannot force them to draw their entire deck. However, this then makes it much more likely you can just cutpurse coppers out of their hand leaving them unable to buy estates.

[Young Nick]

I mean that is the most bad-ass pin I have ever heard of. Correct me if I am wrong, but that looks completely original. If this could ever occur on Iso...

[ycz6]

Good points! We will have to Ambassador two Silvers back to the supply at the end of every turn.

You'd still run out of silver (Although only half as fast) since now you're just moving it to your opponent's deck.

Uh, okay, maybe throw in some Oracle + Thief / Noble Brigand action and we should be good.

[eHalcyon]

Also on the idea of a perpetual pin here is a convoluted, but possible one (not ever useful in a real game):
KC/Gov/cutpurse/minion

Play KC/Gov to draw all THEIR cards. Play KC/Cutpurse to move 5 coppers into their discard. Play gov for cards (they now have 4 coppers in their draw deck). Play minion for 4 cards (you need to have something like only KC/KC/Cutpurse/Cutpurse left in hand). Now play 4 cutpurses. You leave your opponent with no cards to play.

They can, in theory, break this by stockpiling enough curses & coppers that you cannot force them to draw their entire deck. However, this then makes it much more likely you can just cutpurse coppers out of their hand leaving them unable to buy estates.

Wouldn't KC-Cutpurse only move 3 coppers to their discard?  This is a neat idea nonetheless, and I'm sure there's still a way to make it work.  An extra Cutpurse played is good enough, to move a fourth in.  Or two KC-Cutpurse to put 6 copper into discard and then two Governors to leave 4.

The pin also fails if they managed to trash enough coppers at the start.

You'd still run out of silver (Although only half as fast) since now you're just moving it to your opponent's deck.

Uh, okay, maybe throw in some Oracle + Thief / Noble Brigand action and we should be good.

That still wouldn't put any Silver back into the supply though.

[Deadlock39]

If you Ambassador 2 Silvers from your Deck, you put 1 back in the supply and 1 into your opponent's deck.  This does move Silver back to the supply, but it is not sustainable because it moves Silver into your opponent's deck, and you will eventually run out of Silvers to Ambassador.  You can close the loop and make it perpetual by stealing Silvers from your opponent.

Simplest form:
Start condition: 1 Silver in your deck, 39 in the supply, 0 in your opponent's deck.
Play Bureaucrat once, gaining 1 Silver.  (2,38,0)
Play Ambassador, revealing 2 Silvers. (0,39,1)
Play Noble Brigand/Thief, stealing a Silver. (1,39,0)

This still doesn't complete a technically functional pin because it requires cycling and inspecting your opponent's deck, which would remove the victory cards that were supposed to be there in order to pin him.

[jomini]

Also on the idea of a perpetual pin here is a convoluted, but possible one (not ever useful in a real game):
KC/Gov/cutpurse/minion

Play KC/Gov to draw all THEIR cards. Play KC/Cutpurse to move 5 coppers into their discard. Play gov for cards (they now have 4 coppers in their draw deck). Play minion for 4 cards (you need to have something like only KC/KC/Cutpurse/Cutpurse left in hand). Now play 4 cutpurses. You leave your opponent with no cards to play.

They can, in theory, break this by stockpiling enough curses & coppers that you cannot force them to draw their entire deck. However, this then makes it much more likely you can just cutpurse coppers out of their hand leaving them unable to buy estates.

Wouldn't KC-Cutpurse only move 3 coppers to their discard?  This is a neat idea nonetheless, and I'm sure there's still a way to make it work.  An extra Cutpurse played is good enough, to move a fourth in.  Or two KC-Cutpurse to put 6 copper into discard and then two Governors to leave 4.

The pin also fails if they managed to trash enough coppers at the start.

A few quick notes about the pin:
1. You can leave 1 copper because really, what can they buy with 1 coin except a curse or copper?
2. If they trash the starting coppers we could always make a more reliable pin by introducing mountebank - this will give you even more dead cards to play with. I mean, hey this is already unworkable in 99.999% of cases.
3. Like all attack pins, this can be stopped cold by moat, and lighthouse. Horse traders and secret chamber can also break it.
4. Like a lot of pins, duration cards can break this (e.g. tac makes the pin non-viable).

[eHalcyon]

If you Ambassador 2 Silvers from your Deck, you put 1 back in the supply and 1 into your opponent's deck.  This does move Silver back to the supply, but it is not sustainable because it moves Silver into your opponent's deck, and you will eventually run out of Silvers to Ambassador.  You can close the loop and make it perpetual by stealing Silvers from your opponent.

Simplest form:
Start condition: 1 Silver in your deck, 39 in the supply, 0 in your opponent's deck.
Play Bureaucrat once, gaining 1 Silver.  (2,38,0)
Play Ambassador, revealing 2 Silvers. (0,39,1)
Play Noble Brigand/Thief, stealing a Silver. (1,39,0)

This still doesn't complete a technically functional pin because it requires cycling and inspecting your opponent's deck, which would remove the victory cards that were supposed to be there in order to pin him.

I stand corrected.