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Author Topic: Multiplayer Dronings  (Read 11375 times)

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WanderingWinder

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Multiplayer Dronings
« on: May 03, 2012, 12:25:07 am »
+5

So, I'd actually planned on writing a different article tonight, but I guess given the events of the day, this will do instead.
In a two player game, you have a number of things that you need to worry about. But basically, you are always trying to control things, so that at the time the game ends, you are in the lead. You need to control both your own scoring mechanisms as well as the tempo of the game in order to do this. Now, you have a certain amount of control over the tempo, but so does your opponent.
The more players you add, the less control you exert over the tempo. Actually, you get less control over the whole game. There are more chances for your opponents to attack and disrupt you. There are more people competing with you for the limited supplies of the kingdom piles. And three pile endings can happen much faster.
All of this means you have less control. And that can really suck. I really hate that feeling. But you know, there's nothing malicious about it. It's just a much tougher game to win, for anyone.
So, people complain about kingmaking. But this isn't really a big deal. They'll bring up situations, like not ending the game while behind, which lets the guy in 2nd come back and win. Or ending the game while in 2nd, which stops the guy in 3rd who was building an engine from making his huge comeback. Or similar things. But, the thing is, these are strategic moves. Sure, they're not the strategic moves that allows the player making them to win the game, and at the same time, they do have big impacts on who does win. So what gives?
Well, the thing is, there's still strategy here. The guy in second is playing to protect his 2nd place, figuring the chances here are better than if he goes for the win. The guy in 3rd isn't ending it because he has to hope that the game will go on longer, if he's going to have a chance. So these are rational, self-interested actions of people simply trying to get the most out of the game.
And this is NOT kingmaking. Or at least, not the kind that is a huge problem in lots of games. Now, yes, it can still be very frustrating, that the reason I didn't win is because of something a third person, other than myself and not the person who did win, did. But, all of the other players' actions are just as important to the result. Not to mention the shuffle luck aspect. So, yeah, it can be extremely frustrating, and I don't think I'm ever going to like it nearly as much as I do 2-player, largely for this reason. But it's not the kind of kingmaking where player C says, hmm, I'd rather have player B win than player A. Not that this CAN'T happen, because it can, but player C almost always has to do this to his own detriment. And if people aren't playing out of their own self-interest, you're going to have problems anyway.
But what about those cases where people commit hari-kiri, ending the game with themselves in last, or something similar. Yes, this can happen. In fact, it can indeed even come up in a case where it's not a worse strategic move than some other action, simply because you're locked in last place. Yep, it can happen, though it's extremely rare to not have this somehow impact the hari-kiri person's winning chances negatively. But ok, even here, the point is you have to plan for the possibility. As a player in a multiplayer game, you need to base your strategy not only one what's coldly best in a vacuum, but what your opponents do. When do you green? It really really really depends on your opponents' decks. You need to build up longer the more they're languishing, and go for green quicker to compensate for them as well. And you want to have enough of a lead so that whenever one of them ends the game, you can have the lead then, and enough of a long game so that if they hit bad streaks, you're ok there, too.
Now, sometimes, you've got to weigh one option against another. But here, you've just got to take a stand, make a choice, pick a play based on what you think they're going to do. There's some game theory involved. In fact, you can really make the argument that there's MORE strategy involved here, because it's not just a cold calculation of the numbers, you actually have to read what decisions they're going to make. And make the best choice you can based on the information presented.

Now, can people collude? Of course they can collude. Can they collude without hurting their own chances of winning? Not really. So basically, just like in the two-player game, you need to throw games in order to collude. And you actually have to do this in a pretty skillful way in order to really throw it towards one of the players or the other (note to self: team dominion where you take the higher score of one of the players on your team, but it looks individual - very interesting and fun looking). And so, if you're doing this anyway, it might be a bit easier in multiplayer, it might have a little more direct impact within a single game as opposed to in a metagame standings sense, but it's not really qualitatively all that different from fixing results in two player games.
I'll give a couple caveats. Masquerade is the big thing here. You can pass cards that make super huge changes in the game, which can really be cripplingly warping if you're not playing self-interested. Same goes with decisions on contraband and envoy. But you know, these are going to be pretty obvious. Possession might have some issues too, but I think largely with this card, as well as things like smugglers and tribute, it's just that there's a qualitative difference based on seating order, which we don't like because it seems random, rather than actually like a collusive effect going on.
If you want to talk about competitive dominion, there are a few big things then. You want to make sure that people are self-interested and actually trying to win. You want to have very large numbers of games, because the inherent luck is going to not make reliably repeatable results otherwise (a problem that's exacerbated in multiplayer). You want to think long and hard about what bonuses, if any, you give to 2nd place vs 3rd place, or incentives to try to score as many points as possible, which I actually think might be a good thing in the tournament setting if you only do it for losses, and have wins be way more important than that. There are a number of ways you can do something like this to help control endgame behaviour a bit, but the important point is that your tournament rules WILL affect endgame behaviour. You probably also want to make sure everyone is pretty competitively even, and possibly more importantly, good. Because bad play does throw things off a little, not that there isn't strategy to be had there, too.
Furthermore, you definitely want to have separate events for 2-player, 3-player, 4-player. I do think 2 player is the most interesting here, because there's the most individual control, but the other things are viable too, as long as you get people playing to win. You probably also want to take reasonable measures, like recording the actions taken somehow, so that you don't get people like passing colonies on masq plays (though actually, you DO want to do that sometimes, though very very rarely).
Is it easier to collude in 3 player? Yeah probably. But I would not say it's qualitatively different, and I do think the biggest issues are that a) people don't like that the person who does worst has such a big impact on the game, when they aren't that person, and b) people don't understand that you need to take all the possible actions of your opponents, and their decks' capabilities, into account when you're pursuing a multiplayer game, much more complicatedly than in 2p. And without actually playing multiplayer, I don't think it's very easy to grasp this stuff. Not that it isn't still extremely frustrating at times. But then, I think we'll see this more later on in IsoDom Challenge.

Robz888

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2012, 12:34:14 am »
+1

I agree completely. I actually do play with 3 and 4 people quite often IRL. An important aspect of this is there's no Point Tracker. I am terrible at point-tracking, but anyway it is very difficult to do for 3 or 4 people, plus Cursing, plus weird Victory cards. Anyway, I have to weigh the fact that someone may end the game--even when it isn't advantageous for them--because they aren't totally sure of the score, but they expect they will be worse off if they let it continue. I've had a situation where someone debated for eons whether to reveal a Curse when they were Mountebanked, because if they don't, they get the last Curse and they cut a bunch of people out of another turn.

The point is, there's a lot of room for strategy here. It's a different kind of strategy than 2 player (and it makes going 1st much more desirable, and you don't really want to play with Cutpurse, blah blah), but it's still a lot of fun, and it's not... bad in someway because you can make decisions that disproportionately affect other players.
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Slurms

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2012, 02:42:35 am »
0

The important aspect is that everyone has the same end goal.
In casual 3-4 player games I play to win and consider anything else a loss.([edit]excepting draws) This leads to me being annoyed when my opponents play for a guaranteed second or third place, over a less likely win. As they are playing to a different end goal than I am.

As you say in a competitive environment awarding points for 2nd, 3rd place would lead to different end game behaviour.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 03:38:35 am by Slurms »
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dondon151

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2012, 05:05:22 am »
+7

Dear WanderingWinder,

Line breaks are your friends.  ;)
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timchen

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2012, 05:28:03 am »
+3

Long story short: I don't think you miss the point, but you choose to hide the point by a wall of text (which I have read through.)

The bottom line is, unlike you have claimed, the "collusion" or "king making" is very different in 2p games and 3p-or-more games. Sure you can throw away a game for any number of players; however, only in a 3p-or-more game you will have the problem that a irrelevant decision of yours can greatly hurt or benefit one of the other players.

Sure you can digress and say something about strategically preparing for it. Does not change that there's something different.

Note that I don't claim 3p games cannot be ranked. I also do not deny there is very often a clear best way for a player to play. I just want to say, denying that there is higher/different collusion and kingmaking possibilities is wrong. Viewing them as similar or extended effects from 2p games is also wrong.
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Davio

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2012, 06:27:08 am »
0

I like the fact that there's no point tracker IRL.

I don't actively track VPs in games played for enjoyment rather than say, a tournament.
Finding out who actually wins after the game is over adds some excitement for me.
I do this in 7 Wonders too. Sure, you could tally up everyone's scores in realtime, but that's a bit undoable and there are a lot of ways to score in 7W.
I just play the best I can and hope it's good enough.

In 3 player, you can sometimes get away with doing something not because it's good for you, but because it would be too good for your opponent. In 2-player this is a seesaw effect: Any negative effect for your opponent is the same as a positive effect for you. Give him a Curse and you effectively gain a VP token. With 3-player games, the 3rd player will often benefit a lot more. If player A does something just to hinder player B, player C gains the most because it doesn't cost him an action.

If we go back to Dominion and assume player A takes the last Pearl Diver or something to prevent player B's Fairgrounds or Vineyards to level up, player C can sit back and smile, because he gained (didn't lose) on player B without having to spend an action or a buy for a lousy Pearl Diver.

Things like this get even more messy in 4 players and with so many players I just start focusing on my own VPs. I can't control that many players so I might as well try to grab as much VP as I can.

Now I've played in a Dominion tourney where an action by player B cost player A the game (she took the Penultimate Province) allowing me to take the last one. I don't blame her and don't think she was actually kingmaking. She just took the most VPs she could and didn't know both of us could afford the last Province. Heck, she had a bunch of Remodels so it was even more likely she could take it.

While I agree there is kingmaking in multiplayer Dominion, I don't think it plays that big of a deal in practice. It may in tournaments, but come on, it's still just a game. Cheating to win a boardgame tournament is sad, just sad.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2012, 08:28:49 am »
+1

Long story short: I don't think you miss the point, but you choose to hide the point by a wall of text (which I have read through.)

The bottom line is, unlike you have claimed, the "collusion" or "king making" is very different in 2p games and 3p-or-more games. Sure you can throw away a game for any number of players; however, only in a 3p-or-more game you will have the problem that a irrelevant decision of yours can greatly hurt or benefit one of the other players.

Sure you can digress and say something about strategically preparing for it. Does not change that there's something different.

Note that I don't claim 3p games cannot be ranked. I also do not deny there is very often a clear best way for a player to play. I just want to say, denying that there is higher/different collusion and kingmaking possibilities is wrong. Viewing them as similar or extended effects from 2p games is also wrong.
I do think you miss the point. The point is, the decision is not irrelevant to you. It is relevant to you. In terms of the collusion issue, it's very simple: anything you do to throw the game toward one opponent or the other is either: A) also good for your chances of winning, in which case, yeah, it may suck for the person you're hurting here, but that's part of the game; B) bad for your chances of winning, in which case there's no reason for you to do it. But situation B can happen in 2 player, as well. Of course, there's no incentive for you to buy out piles when you're behind in 2-player. There isn't in 3-player either. Look, it's just not a different phenomenon in the vast majority of games. In the small minority of the time one person is totally out of it, most of the time, their decisions don't have meaningful impact on who wins otherwise.

Of course the game is different. Who's arguing this? Duh, it's different. Of course it's different. Again, who's arguing this?

Once again, you're upset that someone besides the winner can make a decision that can cause you to not win. Fine. That's part of the game, and there's nothing nefarious about this. It just is part of the game, one you have to take account of. Now, you can hate that, and I'm totally fine with you hating it. But I don't understand why you're complaining so much about it. Why are you complaining so much about it? Nobody's saying YOU have to play multiplayer...

How can I be digressing? It's my post, I can talk about different related topics. This isn't the 'collusion problem in multiplayer' thread - it's the 'Multiplayer dronings thread'. Everything I talk about has to do with multiplayer, so there's no digression.

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2012, 09:26:09 am »
+2

I think that honestly, you both are right, but view the issue from different angles.

As timchen says, 3 players, playing such that:

Player 1: 26 points
Player 2: 18 points
Player 3: 25 points

It's player 2's turn, there is 1 Province left, and he can buy it. He hasn't been tracking score, but knows it's close. He buys it, thus ending the game in a loss

A) for him, which would've happened the same in a 2p game.
B) for player 3, who had no control over his fate.

Is this collusion? Kingmaking? I don't think either of you would say that it is. However, both of you make the point that it's an intrinsic part of 3p. For WW, it has little to no prolonged effect, that is, all things equal, it happens to everyone. It sucks, but wasn't malicious in intent. To timchen, "malicious in intent" doesn't matter. All things equal doesn't really either. What's important is that it DID happen, and that it CANNOT happen in 2p. So inferring that 2p or 3p play anything alike is a fallacy.

The thing is, this argument could go both ways. If everyone played fairly, equally, all the time, then WW would be 100% correct. It just happens sometimes. Live with it and move on. Maybe next game you're the benefactor.

But things aren't always like that. Say those same 3 players sat down, player 1 said innocently "gl hf", and player two took offense. Now let's examine the example above, with point tracker on, and all other sources of VP gone. Player two chooses not to end it (makes no difference to him), allowing player 3 to win. Or if it had been player 3 that he took offense to, he ends the game, forcing player 1 to win.

There is a lot of grey area that exists in multiplayer and it's this where I see timchen's objections come in.

At the end of the day, I think we live and play somewhere in the middle. Most of the time, people won't do things because they're irrationally upset over something inconsequential. However, they will do things that may or may not directly benefit them. The key is that *most* of the time they BELIEVE it will. Yes, it sucks to be Player 3 in the first example. But as long as the move by player 2 wasn't made unjustly, I won't complain.

It's a part of multiplayer gaming. If you aim for the truest direct matchup of skill, play 2p. If you like seeing how well you can adapt to invariables, and still come out ahead, play 3+. Both are legitimate. But both are very, very different.
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DG

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2012, 09:30:55 am »
+1

In three player games it is dangerous to assume any particular motivation for a losing player. They might want to end the game quickly so they can make a phone call. They might want to pull off an amazing recovery to win. They might just want to beat their friend and ignore the other guy. They might want to give away colonies with an ambassador since it looks cool. It doesn't really matter since the play can be unpredictable. The easiest advice would be get vp leads in preparation for an unexpectedly fast ending, however that leaves you unprepared for a 12 card province pile when one player disconnects. You've just got to be ready for anything.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2012, 09:37:05 am »
0

I think that honestly, you both are right, but view the issue from different angles.

As timchen says, 3 players, playing such that:

Player 1: 26 points
Player 2: 18 points
Player 3: 25 points

It's player 2's turn, there is 1 Province left, and he can buy it. He hasn't been tracking score, but knows it's close. He buys it, thus ending the game in a loss

A) for him, which would've happened the same in a 2p game.
B) for player 3, who had no control over his fate.

Is this collusion? Kingmaking? I don't think either of you would say that it is. However, both of you make the point that it's an intrinsic part of 3p. For WW, it has little to no prolonged effect, that is, all things equal, it happens to everyone. It sucks, but wasn't malicious in intent. To timchen, "malicious in intent" doesn't matter. All things equal doesn't really either. What's important is that it DID happen, and that it CANNOT happen in 2p. So inferring that 2p or 3p play anything alike is a fallacy.

The thing is, this argument could go both ways. If everyone played fairly, equally, all the time, then WW would be 100% correct. It just happens sometimes. Live with it and move on. Maybe next game you're the benefactor.

But things aren't always like that. Say those same 3 players sat down, player 1 said innocently "gl hf", and player two took offense. Now let's examine the example above, with point tracker on, and all other sources of VP gone. Player two chooses not to end it (makes no difference to him), allowing player 3 to win. Or if it had been player 3 that he took offense to, he ends the game, forcing player 1 to win.

There is a lot of grey area that exists in multiplayer and it's this where I see timchen's objections come in.

At the end of the day, I think we live and play somewhere in the middle. Most of the time, people won't do things because they're irrationally upset over something inconsequential. However, they will do things that may or may not directly benefit them. The key is that *most* of the time they BELIEVE it will. Yes, it sucks to be Player 3 in the first example. But as long as the move by player 2 wasn't made unjustly, I won't complain.

It's a part of multiplayer gaming. If you aim for the truest direct matchup of skill, play 2p. If you like seeing how well you can adapt to invariables, and still come out ahead, play 3+. Both are legitimate. But both are very, very different.
The thing is. Most of what you're saying here is right. But 'makes no difference to him'... that's just wrong. It ensures him last place. Whereas with some other course of action, he might do better, even if that might be unlikely. It is of course intrinsic to multiplayer. It is of course much different than in 2p. Of course. I'm not disagreeing there. I'm not trying to say that the different forms of the game are exactly alike. There's a lot of overlap, but there's also a lot of difference. Sort of like the difference between baseball and softball. Or maybe chess and bughouse. Bridge and spades. They're totally different games. I don't have a problem with you hating one or the other. I have a problem with being super angry about people playing one or the other, or claiming that you can't have both exist in competitive environments. Because you can. Just because you don't like the one, because of some aspects that you think are unfair, doesn't mean that other people can't play it super competitively.

ecq

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2012, 10:38:26 am »
0

I've run into a situation playing third-player with two friends, one who's fairly new to the game and one who is more experienced.

The inexperienced player will often buy the last province without considering his final point total, which is the king-making scenario.  He's not trying to preserve 2nd place; he's just not looking at the points.  In two-player, this would cause a loss for the irrational player, but in three-player it can also mess with the outcome for the other players.  It's also not something that's easy to reason about before hand, since you don't know if the third player is going to make a rational or irrational move.

We just accept it as another random factor in the game, but I wanted to point out that the third player isn't always playing strategically or working in anyone's interest.  The fun of playing with multiple friends wins out, but I could see where it would be frustrating in a more competitive setting.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2012, 10:41:40 am »
0

I've run into a situation playing third-player with two friends, one who's fairly new to the game and one who is more experienced.

The inexperienced player will often buy the last province without considering his final point total, which is the king-making scenario.  He's not trying to preserve 2nd place; he's just not looking at the points.  In two-player, this would cause a loss for the irrational player, but in three-player it can also mess with the outcome for the other players.  It's also not something that's easy to reason about before hand, since you don't know if the third player is going to make a rational or irrational move.

We just accept it as another random factor in the game, but I wanted to point out that the third player isn't always playing strategically or working in anyone's interest.  The fun of playing with multiple friends wins out, but I could see where it would be frustrating in a more competitive setting.
In a competitive setting, people aren't going to make bad moves. In a competitive setting, and even in YOUR setting, you adjust to the other person playing that way.
This is part of the game. This is not kingmaking.

tao

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2012, 10:48:29 am »
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Complaining about losing because your opponent was irrational feels like poker players complaining about losing a pot because someone didn't fold their gutshot straight draw on the flop "as they should have".

I would offer that collusion only becomes a serious competitive issue if Dominion tournaments were high stakes, if a large amount of money was on the line. Then there would be definite incentive for players to collude in the hopes of increasing their chances of splitting a large prize. At the moment, it is merely an issue of how much fun it is to play against someone who is trying more to screw you over rather than winning outright.
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ecq

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2012, 11:11:53 am »
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I'm not complaining.  As I said, we accept the random factor.

It was a response to calling plays by the third player "strategic moves."  They aren't always such.  Many times the third player will play just like so many level 0's on isotropic, doing things against his interest, ending the game while behind, etc.  It's part of the game.  It's hard to adjust to, since you can't be confident how the other player will behave.  Ultimately, it just adds variance.  In many cases, I think it makes the game more interesting.
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Davio

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2012, 11:15:23 am »
0

Key is to concentrate on the aspects of the game you CAN control, and not on the things that you can't (or are unethical to do so :P).
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2012, 11:18:43 am »
0

I'm not complaining.  As I said, we accept the random factor.

It was a response to calling plays by the third player "strategic moves."  They aren't always such.  Many times the third player will play just like so many level 0's on isotropic, doing things against his interest, ending the game while behind, etc.  It's part of the game.  It's hard to adjust to, since you can't be confident how the other player will behave.  Ultimately, it just adds variance.  In many cases, I think it makes the game more interesting.
Oh I don't disagree at all. My point was that it can be a strategic move, and in the sense that it affects the strategy of other players, it's at least a strategically-important move. And the more competitive you get, the more of a strategic move it likely is. But you're right, at least at this point, pretty much all multiplayer games are pretty casual, so it just happens. And basically that just adds variance.

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2012, 12:32:44 pm »
0

I play offline multiplayer all the time and at least
50%(rough conservative estimate) of games the third layer is so far behind he will buy anything to end the game, provinces even if there is not enough points to win from them, or three pile.

Agree with the no point tracker comment below as well!)

The king making aspect of this isn't deliberate of course, just the desire to get onto the next game where they stand a chance!

Also, having decent player on the right and crummy on the left for some cards and vice versa for others.
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Robz888

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2012, 01:00:59 pm »
+1

I play offline multiplayer all the time and at least
50%(rough conservative estimate) of games the third layer is so far behind he will buy anything to end the game, provinces even if there is not enough points to win from them, or three pile.

If that's the case, it's something the "still in it" players need to factor in. They should observe, "hey this other guy is so out of it, what is he going to do? Oh, hey he can end it. I need to pull ahead right now." It's part of the strategy of succeeding in the end-game of 3 player, then.
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I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.

ftl

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2012, 03:41:45 pm »
0

Fundamentally, in two player, there are only two things which affect who does better in a game, player A or player B:
1) Whether player A or B plays better
2) Luck.
...and I guess a third, which should be excluded:
3) Cheating.

In 3 player, that's not true. There's an extra factor: whether the other player involved prefers A or B to win. This thread (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2435.0) has dozens of examples of how a third player can CHOOSE which of the other two players to give an unearned advantage to. Some of them are obvious, like passing Colonies with Masquerade, or executing a KC-Goons-Masq pin on one player; some of them are indistinguishable from normal play, like seeing "Hmm, Alice is winning right now, but I don't like her so I'm not going to end the game... [next turn] oh, Bob is winning now, I'll empty out the third pile now."

This is not equivalent to shuffle luck, because it is not random; there is absolutely no guarantee that this will, on average, even out, especially in a non-anonymous setting.
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Galzria

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2012, 03:57:41 pm »
0

I disagree, to an extent ftl. Personally, I play to win. I accept that my actions have consequences to others, and sometimes disproportionally. But my actions are never dictated by who would suffer more.

I expect that in an anonymous setting or not, my actions will hurt or help equally over time. You may not feel this way. You may feel picked on and decide to get even by playing "against" me. I accept that too.

So are all things equal? Not always. But if everybody plays to win for themselves and not screw over other people? Sure, it can be over time.

I don't really care who finishes where as long as I'm as close to the top as possible.

The only exception to this, is in non-single-elimination tournament, where helping one player in THIS game may benefit me in a future game. In this case... I'm with WW. So? That's part of the game. I'm trying to do my best overall, and I'll use a strategy that says as Player C,, (who can't win), it's better for me if player A beats player B, so player B doesn't clinch.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

Tdog

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2012, 04:17:33 pm »
0

In 3 or more player, it can be hard to tell about the score if you aren't paying too much attention. If one player knows he has about 2 provinces and about 2 duchies, he might be thinking the last province would give him a good chance. He might not know one player has gotten 5 provinces. This could seem like he is "kingmaking".  In 4 player, 12 provinces are averaged out 3 a piece, so a duchy or two can make a difference. Without paying super close attention to the score without a point tracker, you can easily misevaluate the number of points. Even if it's only by one province, it can make a big difference in 4 players.
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ftl

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2012, 04:23:03 pm »
0

I disagree, to an extent ftl. Personally, I play to win. I accept that my actions have consequences to others, and sometimes disproportionally. But my actions are never dictated by who would suffer more.

I expect that in an anonymous setting or not, my actions will hurt or help equally over time. You may not feel this way.
You're saying that YOU, personally, play to win and don't care where everyone else finishes.

That's great! That means that you, personally, do not engage in kingmaking. I certainly agree that if you play that way, then your actions will hurt or help people equally (on average) and fairly.

Quote
You may feel picked on and decide to get even by playing "against" me. I accept that too.

So are all things equal? Not always. But if everybody plays to win for themselves and not screw over other people? Sure, it can be over time.

But what if they don't? That's when the problem comes in.

In 2p, if someone doesn't play to win, then the only person they harm is themselves, and the only person they help is their opponent. There's no problem!

In 3p, somebody not playing to win can impact the fair competition between two people who ARE playing to win.

Quote
I don't really care who finishes where as long as I'm as close to the top as possible.

Good for you. What if you're playing against someone who doesn't care where they finish, as long as their best friend finishes as close to the top as possible? Would you think of that as a fair competition if it's in a game with you, that guy, and their best friend?

Or, more realistically, somebody who would prefer to finish higher... but if they think their position is already locked in, they prefer that their friend do better rather than you?

Quote
The only exception to this, is in non-single-elimination tournament, where helping one player in THIS game may benefit me in a future game. In this case... I'm with WW. So? That's part of the game. I'm trying to do my best overall, and I'll use a strategy that says as Player C,, (who can't win), it's better for me if player A beats player B, so player B doesn't clinch.

Sure. That's not what I'm talking about.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 04:26:52 pm by ftl »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2012, 04:31:03 pm »
0

ftl, yes, this is an issue, it's part of the game (i.e. that someone who is not you can do something to stop you from winning while not making himself win), you don't like it, we've agree about this... many times. What's your point?

tlloyd

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2012, 05:02:02 pm »
0

Long story short: I don't think you miss the point, but you choose to hide the point by a wall of text (which I have read through.)

The bottom line is, unlike you have claimed, the "collusion" or "king making" is very different in 2p games and 3p-or-more games. Sure you can throw away a game for any number of players; however, only in a 3p-or-more game you will have the problem that a irrelevant decision of yours can greatly hurt or benefit one of the other players.

Sure you can digress and say something about strategically preparing for it. Does not change that there's something different.

Note that I don't claim 3p games cannot be ranked. I also do not deny there is very often a clear best way for a player to play. I just want to say, denying that there is higher/different collusion and kingmaking possibilities is wrong. Viewing them as similar or extended effects from 2p games is also wrong.
I do think you miss the point. The point is, the decision is not irrelevant to you. It is relevant to you. In terms of the collusion issue, it's very simple: anything you do to throw the game toward one opponent or the other is either: A) also good for your chances of winning, in which case, yeah, it may suck for the person you're hurting here, but that's part of the game; B) bad for your chances of winning, in which case there's no reason for you to do it. But situation B can happen in 2 player, as well. Of course, there's no incentive for you to buy out piles when you're behind in 2-player. There isn't in 3-player either. Look, it's just not a different phenomenon in the vast majority of games. In the small minority of the time one person is totally out of it, most of the time, their decisions don't have meaningful impact on who wins otherwise.

Of course the game is different. Who's arguing this? Duh, it's different. Of course it's different. Again, who's arguing this?

Once again, you're upset that someone besides the winner can make a decision that can cause you to not win. Fine. That's part of the game, and there's nothing nefarious about this. It just is part of the game, one you have to take account of. Now, you can hate that, and I'm totally fine with you hating it. But I don't understand why you're complaining so much about it. Why are you complaining so much about it? Nobody's saying YOU have to play multiplayer...

How can I be digressing? It's my post, I can talk about different related topics. This isn't the 'collusion problem in multiplayer' thread - it's the 'Multiplayer dronings thread'. Everything I talk about has to do with multiplayer, so there's no digression.

WW - I think where we differ is that you are focusing on individual games, and I'm talking about a series of games (which is, after all, where this conversation started). As you have said, in a 3P game, anything you do to advantage opponent A over opponent B is either in your own interests (in which case this is legit and too bad for B) or against* your own interests (in which case the problem is random play, not the game). And all of this applies equally in a 2P game.

*There are conceivable circumstances in which the choice has no effect on your own interests, if we're talking about a single game.

However, if you are playing a series of games, your interest go beyond winning any particular game. In 2P this changes nothing -- the only thing that matters in each game is whether you win that game. But in 3P, there arer circumstances in which your winning or losing is not the only thing that matters, because you also care about your opponents' performance relative to each other. If you have the chance, you'll try to hamper whichever of your opponents is doing the best in the series so far, and help the one that is struggling.

This rational, self-interested, meta-strategy is simply not present in 2P. And this is exactly the sort of thing Donald tried to avoid in the design of the game (he even references settlers of catan where all-too-frequently the opportunitty arises to target whoever is the biggest threat). In fact, perhaps the simplest way to explain is to think of a series of games as providng opportunities for targeted (meta-)attacks, which is only an issue if you have more than one opponent.

PS- I don't think the above amounts to much of a critique on the game of Dominion (however many players), but it is a flaw in your argument which you have so far failed to acknowledge.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 05:06:34 pm by tlloyd »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2012, 05:11:23 pm »
0

Long story short: I don't think you miss the point, but you choose to hide the point by a wall of text (which I have read through.)

The bottom line is, unlike you have claimed, the "collusion" or "king making" is very different in 2p games and 3p-or-more games. Sure you can throw away a game for any number of players; however, only in a 3p-or-more game you will have the problem that a irrelevant decision of yours can greatly hurt or benefit one of the other players.

Sure you can digress and say something about strategically preparing for it. Does not change that there's something different.

Note that I don't claim 3p games cannot be ranked. I also do not deny there is very often a clear best way for a player to play. I just want to say, denying that there is higher/different collusion and kingmaking possibilities is wrong. Viewing them as similar or extended effects from 2p games is also wrong.
I do think you miss the point. The point is, the decision is not irrelevant to you. It is relevant to you. In terms of the collusion issue, it's very simple: anything you do to throw the game toward one opponent or the other is either: A) also good for your chances of winning, in which case, yeah, it may suck for the person you're hurting here, but that's part of the game; B) bad for your chances of winning, in which case there's no reason for you to do it. But situation B can happen in 2 player, as well. Of course, there's no incentive for you to buy out piles when you're behind in 2-player. There isn't in 3-player either. Look, it's just not a different phenomenon in the vast majority of games. In the small minority of the time one person is totally out of it, most of the time, their decisions don't have meaningful impact on who wins otherwise.

Of course the game is different. Who's arguing this? Duh, it's different. Of course it's different. Again, who's arguing this?

Once again, you're upset that someone besides the winner can make a decision that can cause you to not win. Fine. That's part of the game, and there's nothing nefarious about this. It just is part of the game, one you have to take account of. Now, you can hate that, and I'm totally fine with you hating it. But I don't understand why you're complaining so much about it. Why are you complaining so much about it? Nobody's saying YOU have to play multiplayer...

How can I be digressing? It's my post, I can talk about different related topics. This isn't the 'collusion problem in multiplayer' thread - it's the 'Multiplayer dronings thread'. Everything I talk about has to do with multiplayer, so there's no digression.

WW - I think where we differ is that you are focusing on individual games, and I'm talking about a series of games (which is, after all, where this conversation started). As you have said, in a 3P game, anything you do to advantage opponent A over opponent B is either in your own interests (in which case this is legit and too bad for B) or against* your own interests (in which case the problem is random play, not the game). And all of this applies equally in a 2P game.

*There are conceivable circumstances in which the choice has no effect on your own interests, if we're talking about a single game.

However, if you are playing a series of games, your interest go beyond winning any particular game. In 2P this changes nothing -- the only thing that matters in each game is whether you win that game. But in 3P, there arer circumstances in which your winning or losing is not the only thing that matters, because you also care about your opponents' performance relative to each other. If you have the chance, you'll try to hamper whichever of your opponents is doing the best in the series so far, and help the one that is struggling.

This rational, self-interested, meta-strategy is simply not present in 2P. And this is exactly the sort of thing Donald tried to avoid in the design of the game (he even references settlers of catan where all-too-frequently the opportunitty arises to target whoever is the biggest threat). In fact, perhaps the simplest way to explain is to think of a series of games as providng opportunities for targeted (meta-)attacks, which is only an issue if you have more than one opponent.

PS- I don't think the above amounts to much of a critique on the game of Dominion (however many players), but it is a flaw in your argument which you have so far failed to acknowledge.
Are you reading my posts? Because either you aren't, or I can't talk. Because I don't see how anything you are saying right now is at odds with what I am saying, with the following only exceptions: I am also talking about a series of games, I expressed a doubt that this is exactly what Donald was trying to avoid (though you might be right there), and I don't think it's a flaw in my argument, because I haven't failed to acknowledge it. I have acknowledged it. On like 8 occasions.
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