Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: How many stashes do you want in Chancellor/Stash?  (Read 5656 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

ehunt

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1528
  • Shuffle iT Username: ehunt
  • Respect: +1856
    • View Profile
How many stashes do you want in Chancellor/Stash?
« on: June 02, 2012, 11:22:30 am »
+1

I don't have enough computational skills to answer this question myself (i.e. I can't even figure out how to download the simulator on my ancient mac).

When playing chancellor/stash, my pseudo-algorithm is usually something like: avoid silvers, buy chancellors, buy stashes till you have 4, then prefer chancellors (unless it's duchy time), buy province whenever you have 8.

I'm not sure if this is ideal. With enough chancellors, chancellor/stash has a reasonable expectation of getting a province every other turn, and with luck, you draw a chancellor as the fifth card in your stash hand, thus getting two provinces in a row. (i've found the lucky draw happens about an average of once per game using the above buying rules, but this is just my ten or so IRL games, not simulation)

Suppose we only buy three stashes. On the one hand, some of our stash turns won't get a province, which is bad. On the other, the chance of having a chancellor in hand on the stash turn doubles, which is good.

So,

1. Simple question - For simplicity, ignore duchies. Which gets to five provinces faster? Four stashes (buy rules: province, stash w/ <8 unless there's 4 in deck already, chancellor) ? Or three stashes? Note that I expect four stashes to get to 8 provinces faster, but that this is the wrong question for practical applications.

2. Hard question - What's the best win % against BMU you can make buying only chancellors, stashes, and green cards?
Logged

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5477
  • Respect: +2860
    • View Profile
Re: How many stashes do you want in Chancellor/Stash?
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2012, 01:18:13 pm »
0

Is it bad to buy Silvers in Chancellor Stash?

Guess I've been doing it wrong.
Logged

qmech

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1918
  • Shuffle iT Username: qmech
  • What year is it?
  • Respect: +2320
    • View Profile
Re: How many stashes do you want in Chancellor/Stash?
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2012, 01:53:34 pm »
+2

I think I'd be inclined to open Chancellor/Silver, then stop buying Silver once I get my first Stash.  That gives you a better chance to hit $5 on the first reshuffle (after which you want as many Chancellors as possible so that you see your Stashes as often as you can).
Logged

ehunt

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1528
  • Shuffle iT Username: ehunt
  • Respect: +1856
    • View Profile
Re: How many stashes do you want in Chancellor/Stash?
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2012, 03:52:10 pm »
0

I guess that's yet another good question. I usually open chancellor/chancellor. I very rarely miss a stash on the second shuffle - if I get 4 with two chancellors on turn 3, that's not so bad because I just chancellor, put another chancellor in my deck, and try again. I just have to draw a chancellor with three coppers by turn 6 or so. And silver may as well be a curse once I have four stashes.
Logged

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5477
  • Respect: +2860
    • View Profile
Re: How many stashes do you want in Chancellor/Stash?
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2012, 04:51:22 pm »
0

Not if there's an Island you can buy :P
Logged

BubbleBoy

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 75
  • Did you say Black Market?!
  • Respect: +18
    • View Profile
Re: How many stashes do you want in Chancellor/Stash?
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2012, 05:39:20 pm »
0

I have no knowledge or experience in this matter, but has anyone ever tried only 3 Stashes? If you have enough Chancellors, there's a good chance you'll draw it in one of the two other cards you draw on the reshuffle, giving you the $8 you need for a Province. This maybe only works with a good trasher out, and maybe not even then.
Logged
...Or, I guess you could just buy a Province.

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: How many stashes do you want in Chancellor/Stash?
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2012, 05:47:35 pm »
0

My basic chancellor/stash script bought 4 stashes then duchies, alternating chancellors and silvers in the early game then just chancellors in the mid game. That wins 82/14 against the simulator BMU script.
Logged

ehunt

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1528
  • Shuffle iT Username: ehunt
  • Respect: +1856
    • View Profile
Re: How many stashes do you want in Chancellor/Stash?
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2012, 06:06:08 pm »
0

I have no knowledge or experience in this matter, but has anyone ever tried only 3 Stashes? If you have enough Chancellors, there's a good chance you'll draw it in one of the two other cards you draw on the reshuffle, giving you the $8 you need for a Province. This maybe only works with a good trasher out, and maybe not even then.

you definitely don't want trashers.
Logged

ehunt

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1528
  • Shuffle iT Username: ehunt
  • Respect: +1856
    • View Profile
Re: How many stashes do you want in Chancellor/Stash?
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2012, 06:06:40 pm »
0

My basic chancellor/stash script bought 4 stashes then duchies, alternating chancellors and silvers in the early game then just chancellors in the mid game. That wins 82/14 against the simulator BMU script.

What happens when you buy just 3, or drop the silver conditions?

(EDIT: I am really surprised that anyone buys more than one silver with chancellor/stash. I don't buy any, as I mentioned. Am I doing it wrong?)
Logged

qmech

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1918
  • Shuffle iT Username: qmech
  • What year is it?
  • Respect: +2320
    • View Profile
Re: How many stashes do you want in Chancellor/Stash?
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2012, 06:53:00 pm »
0

Using the rough numbers from your OP, if you expect one instant Chancellor with 4 Stashes you should expect two instant Chancellors with 3 Stashes, which would shave one turn off the game length.  If you miss one Province then you're back where you started, with the possible advantage that you can get set up faster (but then you might have fewer Chancellors).  So I'd be surprised if 3 Stashes can be an improvement over 4.

Does aiming for 3 Stashes look much different from aiming for 4 but buying Provinces whenever you're able even if it's before you hit your Stash target?
Logged

O

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 836
  • Respect: +605
    • View Profile
Re: How many stashes do you want in Chancellor/Stash?
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2012, 06:58:55 pm »
0

Using the rough numbers from your OP, if you expect one instant Chancellor with 4 Stashes you should expect two instant Chancellors with 3 Stashes, which would shave one turn off the game length.

I don't believe that's correct. Remember you have more first- turn- of- shuffles on average too. Bit more than 2x as often
Logged

qmech

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1918
  • Shuffle iT Username: qmech
  • What year is it?
  • Respect: +2320
    • View Profile
Re: How many stashes do you want in Chancellor/Stash?
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2012, 07:06:35 pm »
0

If you're measuring time to 5 Provinces then you have 5 + #(missed chances) first-turn-of-reshuffles.  So if you have more chances at hitting the instant Chancellor it's because you missed buying a Province on an earlier attempt.
Logged

Mic Qsenoch

  • 2015 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1709
  • Respect: +4329
    • View Profile
Re: How many stashes do you want in Chancellor/Stash?
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2012, 07:07:42 pm »
+2

Having two cards to draw chancellor (3 stashes) doesn't double your chances compared to one (four stashes). Flipping two coins doesn't double your chance of seeing heads compared to one coin.

On the silver thing, I don't know the answer, but having silver does make duchy buys more likely on your non stash turns.
Logged

qmech

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1918
  • Shuffle iT Username: qmech
  • What year is it?
  • Respect: +2320
    • View Profile
Re: How many stashes do you want in Chancellor/Stash?
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2012, 07:23:37 pm »
+1

It's a reasonable approximation if even a quarter of your deck is Chancellors.  I agree that it will actually be slightly less, which weakens the case for 3 Stashes even further. 
Logged

ghostofmars

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 162
  • Respect: +71
    • View Profile
Re: How many stashes do you want in Chancellor/Stash?
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2012, 11:44:27 am »
+2

Code: [Select]
<player name="Chancellor/Stash"
 author="gom"
 description="buy up to 4 stash, a single silver after the first chancellor, and as many chancellor as possible  ">
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Stash">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Stash"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Silver"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Chancellor"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Chancellor"/>
</player>
This is the best bot I could come up with. Buying no Silver is significantly worse, as is buying less than 4 Stashes.
Buying more than 1 silver doesn't change very much, but is a little bit weaker.
Logged

michaeljb

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1422
  • Shuffle iT Username: michaeljb
  • Respect: +2115
    • View Profile
Re: How many stashes do you want in Chancellor/Stash?
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2012, 05:16:18 pm »
+1

So I'm a few days late to the party, but I like the results I got so I'm going to share  :D

Made some more tweaks with the green buys. Started with ghostofmars Stash and Silver rules, the only change I made there ends up ignoring Silver after a 5/2 start. I also added a Copper rule for 5/2 start and a $2 draw on turn 3 or 4.

After a couple Accurate Simulations (10K games), this bot beats gom's about 55-39, the built in one about 67-28, and BMU about 85-13.

Fun notes: my bot and gom's both beat Horse Traders/Duke, Familiar (lucky 3rd turn), IGG (but don't do so well against IGG+Gardens), and Scheme/Sea Hag. My bot also beats The Golden Deck and Geronimoo's Witch+BMU; it loses to Workshop/Gardens, but it's pretty close (about 51-47).

edit: I originally said it beats WW's Wharf bot--it does beat the one currently in the simulator, but does not beat his latest Wharf bot.

Code: [Select]
<player name="Chancellor/StashMB"
 author="michaeljb"
 description="">
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="Combo"/>
   <buy name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Stash"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Stash">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Stash"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Silver"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Chancellor"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Stash"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Chancellor"/>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Chancellor"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Stash"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Copper"/>
</player>




PS I just discovered WW's bot, which at first looked better than mine (won the first few quick sims by 2-3%), but after a couple runs of the Ultimate Simulation (100K games), mine has a slight edge, >1.5%. Mine performs much better against BMU+Witch, HT+Duke, and The Golden Deck. 8)
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 07:03:05 pm by michaeljb »
Logged
🚂 Give 18xx games a chance 🚂
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 2.286 seconds with 21 queries.