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Author Topic: Vineyards, Nobles, Jesters.  (Read 1837 times)

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methods of rationality

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Vineyards, Nobles, Jesters.
« on: May 24, 2012, 03:33:05 pm »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201205/24/game-20120524-105400-a16bb93e.html
in this game my opponent uses Jester to give me curses thus prolonging the game enough for his vineyards to be worth 6 points each. Is this really the right way to go on this board or did he get lucky by hitting my green cards 7 times?
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DG

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Re: Vineyards, Nobles, Jesters.
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2012, 03:54:30 pm »
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By about turn 12 you had a nice deck of treasure and it needed drawing up in quantity to buy your provinces. Cards like vaults, nobles, or more oracles could have done that for you instead of taking early duchies. The potion purchases signalled a long game and you needed sustained province buying. Your early merchant ship purchase was ok for your deck but a jester would have been more interesting.
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Jorbles

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Re: Vineyards, Nobles, Jesters.
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2012, 04:01:22 pm »
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I don't think he got particularly lucky, he had a lot of Jesters and a lot of cycling. He missed giving you curses more often than he gave them to you (12 out of 19 Jesters played were hitting other things). I tend to agree with DG when he mentions Vaults. A Vault can speed up the game a lot, and can net you Provinces every time you pair it with a Gold.
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ehunt

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Re: Vineyards, Nobles, Jesters.
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2012, 05:29:47 pm »
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1. I 100% agree that vault is the key card here. It is a fantastic rebuttal to almost all of the attacks in the game, certainly to a weak one like Jester. You easily win (and end the game quickly) if you buy one.

2. I would not have pegged this as a vineyards board, even without vault allowing a province rush. So let's analyze the game pretending that vault wasn't there. If we ignore the vault, I'm not sure what you do wrong. Your greening causes the game to stall, which as you say makes his vineyards worth more, but from your position I would have deduced that vineyards were SO hopeless as to make the greening worth it. So I think I learn from this game that in a slow game vineyards can be worth it even without +buy or cheap actions.
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ftl

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Re: Vineyards, Nobles, Jesters.
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2012, 05:52:15 pm »
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Isn't it true that once you see that your opponent is going for Vineyards, you should hold off on the Duchies?

Not a bot bought potions on turns 10 and 12. That tells you that he's going to just start getting vineyards on his next shuffle. If you're going for provinces, the LAST thing you want is a long, drawn-out slog which gives him the chance to get his 7 vineyards and get them up to 6 points each, you want to keep hammering the provinces and end the game earlier than that.

You bought provinces on turns 8, 10, and 12, and if your opponent was also going for provinces, turn 13 would be a great time to get a Duchy, the game would be about one shuffle away from ending. But your opponent wasn't going for provinces. Turn 13 wasn't near the end-game at all - it was less than half way through the game, which lasted until turn 30. That's why those duchies really messed you up: you reshuffled FOUR times after you bought that first duchy. That's a long time for that duchy (and more duchies) to sit there clogging up your hands and preventing you from buying provinces.

Duchy dancing is end-game play, and I think you badly misjudged when the game transitioned to 'end-game' because you didn't realize how drawn-out the game was, when your opponent was not helping you run down the provinces. Once you saw that your opponent was getting potions, you should have prioritized getting the last provinces and ending the game ahead of getting extra points with duchies.
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mnavratil

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Re: Vineyards, Nobles, Jesters.
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2012, 05:57:57 pm »
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I had typed up pretty much exactly what ftl has stated. I would like to point out that I think too many people rely on the "5 Provinces left" rule to buy duchies. This really only holds true if they are being contested. Even in a money game, I would say buying a duchy when you are up 3-0 on provinces is too early.
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CoheedandCambria

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Re: Vineyards, Nobles, Jesters.
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2012, 11:05:28 pm »
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Didn't look at the whole game, just the kingdom and ending decks..

Vineyards is normally a terrible strat unless there are +buy/+gain or another potion card that you want. I'm amazed at how he had 7 villages with only 1 monument.. Since he was trying to stall the game to enhance his vineyards you'd think he would want one of the best cards in a long game.

Your strategy should be to make the game as quick as possible. Buying duchies will only make the game last longer and will give him more targets with his jesters. Vault is a huge card here for you since it guarantees you a province as long as you have a gold or 2 silvers in 6 cards.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 11:07:36 pm by CoheedandCambria »
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