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Author Topic: I've hit a plateau, can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.  (Read 6466 times)

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mDuo13

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I've hit a plateau, can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.
« on: April 12, 2012, 06:34:31 pm »
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I was chugging along, steadily working my way up the leaderboard, refining my builds and timings, expanding my card knowledge, you know the drill, up until level 27, where I peaked after a particularly good day.

Then an unlucky day later I dropped to rank 23 and I've been piddling around ranks 21-23 ever since. Mostly of the time I play, it feels like I lose close games due to bad luck. There are some exceptions where either my opponent or I made a crucial mistake, or Tournament games that spiral out of control, but overall I can't figure out why I'm losing so much more often lately.

http://councilroom.com/player?player=mDuo13

here's are a few example games -- if you guys can look through and point out anything I could've done to play it better, I'd love the advice. I'm sure there are more optimal ways to play some of these.

Game 1. http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120411-135816-79f70173.html
(Tunnel game, I probably should've bought Secret Chamber earlier?)

Game 2. http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120411-145750-173f7d58.html
(Goons, I probably shouldn't have opened Walled Village, I guess?)

Game 3. http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120409-141859-e7ebf3be.html
(Familiar with both players opening 5/2. I tried to play defense with Wharf+Crossroads+Salvager but it didn't work.)

Game 4. http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120409-142407-4c3af287.html
(I go Chapel/Remodel, he goes Masq/Masq)

Game 5. http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120409-133033-65d6b479.html
(Basically a BM game, I lost the tie on turns.)


Especially if you guys can see some trend to my mistakes/weaknesses that I can work on for all future games, that would be ideal.
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jsh357

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Re: I've hit a plateau, can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2012, 06:41:42 pm »
+1

I know that feel man.  I made it up to Level 34 not long ago, and have been losing right and left ever since.  I had a devil of a time making it past 26 back when I was hovering around there.  Hard to say how, but eventually I find everything comes back around.  Try only playing people around your level (+/-5).  That way you won't drop as hard when you lose during the slump. 

In that first Tunnel game, I can't say for sure, but I think Oracle/BM might have beaten Tunnels there.  There were no +buys, and your opponent's deck would have been clogged with Tunnels.

Game 4: That definitely looks like a power Masquerade board to me.  It's gonna outpace Chapel since there's not a whole lot of engine potential there.
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rod-

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Re: I've hit a plateau, can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2012, 07:26:53 pm »
+2

As for plateaus, you're going to hit plateaus.  That said, you're doing the right thing asking questions.  You'll be on your plateau for a long time if you don't go looking for the next peak.

Game 1:  Both of you went overboard on tunnels.  Tunnel is good, often a must-have....but rarely a must-have-more-than-two, especially not a "empty this pile by turn 8".  Your overload of tunnels made your economy way too slow:  Big money beats 24 turns, and BM+lab won't run over 16 on a bad day.  Your opponent ruined his deck less.

Game 2:  Walled village is not a good opener ever - you're essentially trading your first round draft pick for a third round draft pick.  No kicker.  Had your WV been a militia or silver turn 4, you could've been the first one with the wharf, and if it'd been militia, you would've even kept your opponent off of wharf for another shuffle.   Don't ever skip the power 5s.

Game 3: Crossroads/Wharf is a valid opener on 5/2 here, although you're likely to be a little in the hole against a familiar strategy.  Your veto of woodcutter, however, says you intended this to be a possibility?  You'd rather keep strong cursers on the board than eliminate them.  Island on turn 3 is the error that doesn't follow your strategy through.  Potion instead gives you a chance to catch up on the familiar game due to your deck's inherent speed:  Crossroads+Wharf=fast shuffling.  Buying islands and crossroads in the same deck is just....counterintuitive.  You want to keep your green in the deck, not waste buys getting it out.  Pick 1 strategy and hold to it.  (Try to make sure it's the best, first...)

Game 4: Without +actions, what is your chapel deck supposed to be building towards?  BM masq is the best on this board, with a late-game remodel if the province split is close. 

Game 5: It's hard to beat DoubleJack, and neither of you tried, and it would've won your game by five turns.

I'd say that your next plateau is one of getting an idea of how fast which strategies are.  Simple single-card strategies are the best benchmarks to know.  Masquerade, Jack, etc.  Then make a judgment call about whether you're faster or slower than that.  If you don't know, try it once to find out, sure, but then remember.
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ftl

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Re: I've hit a plateau, can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2012, 08:11:32 pm »
+1

Well, I and other people on this board can go through and make comments about individual games; alternatively, we can give suggestions for more general things.

General comments:

Plateaus like that are normal. You go up, you reach a peak ranking, then you fall back down and feel like you're stuck. It always happens. Things which you should do:

1) Don't worry! This is normal! It's not a reflection on you or anything.
2) Don't get discouraged! If your ranking stresses you out, play unranked games, or make an alt, or something. Or play IRL instead of online. Or however you like - make sure the game stays fun!
3) There are a few ways to keep improving. One is to just keep playing more games. Two is to record your losses and try to get analysis of them. Three is to try out strategies yourself and experiment - if you want to know how well a strategy works, pull up a solitaire game and try it out, or learn to use the sims to check out strategies, or something. Any or all of them are good.

Specific game comments:

Game 1. You went Oracle/Secret Chamber/Harvest/Laboratory/Nobles/Tunnel. Your opponent went for a much purer Lab/SC/Tunnel, with nobles at $6. The SC were his only discarder.

Two comments. I *think* - though I am not totally sure - that you need fewer tunnels in a tunnel game. The goal is to use tunnels to bootstrap to gold, not to flood your deck with them for points, though the points are nice too. You thought you won the 5 tunnels vs 3 split, but really that's not an advantage. I think. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, or mDuo you can try it out in sims or solitaire.

The results were unspectacular. The game ended on turn 24, which is a *long* game - a standard BM+X with a good enabler should get to 6 or 7 provinces far before then, so BM+Oracle might have been better. It's not as clear because of the nobles and tunnels for VP, perhaps the VP from those would have been enough to overcome a 6-2 and definitely a 5-3 province split, so I'm not 100% convinced. Close game.

One thing is that the other guy was more focused - he went for Lab/SC/Tunnels pretty hard. You were a little more scattered, got an oracle and only one lab and a harvest. I suspect that's not optimal - you should either focus on lab/sc/tunnel like he did, or skip that and go oracle/bm, but I suspect that a mixed bag of tunnel enablers would be less effective than a focus on the best one. (Or, in this case, worse than oracle-BM in the first place...)

Hmm. Total count: you had 5 terminals, 0 villages, 2 nobles in your deck, he had 2 terminals and 5 nobles.

Game 2: Goons game.

I do see one clear mistake early - you opened Walled Village. I could understand this if you didn't want a Militia at all in your deck, but you picked one up on the first shuffle anyway, and getting the Militia first and the WV later is better than the other way around! On the other hand, later in the game, there was a point (after turn 10) where your deck had 1 village and 6 (!!) terminals!

I'm confused about your turn 13. Didn't you have a scheme in hand? Why didn't you play it?

Oh, and at the end: you have 5 villages, 12 terminals, and 1 nobles; opponent has 5 villages, 10 terminals, and 4 nobles.

I think the courtyards were a mistake. You didn't have room for extra terminals, they clashed as it is. You needed the terminal space for wharves. I think one thing from this game which MIGHT be generalizable to more is that you need to keep track of how many villages and terminals you have or want. 6 terminals on 1 village is a recipe for collisions.

Game 3: well, you ignored familiars, but didn't counter them. Your opponent was also the first one to get a Salvager for trashing. And since it was a Colony game, you couldn't try to use something like Wharf to race to a lead before the curses/slow trashing kicked in. Oh, and I note that you spent all your early turns buying either Wharves or Crossroads - you didn't get a single coin-producing card until turn 8 (salvager) and the gold on turn 9.

This one was easier to analyze - it looked like you saw one powerful thing going on (a wharf engine with crossroads) and neglected the rest of the board. You needed to either get familiars or counter them - either match the potion/crossroads open of your opponent, or open wharf/crossroads and get a potion on the next shuffle (possibly better), or at the very least try to get salvagers though I suspect that wouldn't have worked well. Since this board was a long game, the universities would be a fine consolation after the familiar race was over, and salvagers could salvage the potion, so I think that getting the potion would have been the clearly right play.

You said that you tried to play defense with salvagers, but you didn't get your first salvager until turn 8, so it's a pretty late defense.

Game 4: another easy one to analyze, because it was a simple case of wrong strategy. Chapel is NOT a good setup for a big money game; chapel->Money+drawer is slower than just going the money strategy in the first place. And, Masquerade is a nice counter to chapel, because you never want to be left with a hand of only expensive things. This was a definite masq+money game; potentially a late-game remodel would help or potentially a mid-game council room as a second terminal card draw would help, but I'm pretty sure chapel is a trap here.

Game 5: ouch, another really close one. Here you lost via islands, despite winning the province split. I would have guessed that doublejack or jack+some islands on $4 for tiebreaking would have been faster than remaking expands and expanding royal seals, but if you drew a lot of $5 and $7, well, do whatever you can. I do think that jack+silver would have been a better opening.
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RisingJaguar

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Re: I've hit a plateau, can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2012, 08:30:37 pm »
+1

General rule of thumb: It's pretty hard to consistently lose due to bad luck.  You would actually need, bad luck.  Be more critical of yourself by looking at logs and seeing the "what if I bought a simpler card or a VP card".  Doesn't even need to be logs, just look at the next reshuffle.  Yes it's small sample size, but it's better than hanging everything to bad luck.  You'll even begin to know when your strategies hit good luck when they should have lost, that's another big jump in understanding the game. 

First thing I noticed: Avoid having openings that provide no value on the next turn.  By this I mean your walled village and Tunnel openings.  Walled village provides zero value, while Tunnel provides negative value and very slim positive value.  We start off with 7 coppers and three estates, pretty bad.  Hard to win the game when you're beginning doesn't make it better. 

Second thing I noticed: If you're playing to win the game, do not end the game when you know you will lose.  You have point tracker, use it.  Almost as a habit, with point tracker on, check the info box, see the score.  See how many points you can score (that would finish the game), if it wins, do it.  If not, extend the game.  Yes I know he's about to win next turn, but you don't know that. 

Good thing is you do notice that each game there should be a certain... "BM benchmark" For awhile this is how approach the game (took me to a decent level), I thought of the best and simplest BM bench mark (with maybe a couple detours but not much) and think of the relative time to get there.  Practice on solitaire games or read up on simulation results to know the answer.  Then think of the BEST engine you can make, is it fast enough? If you think it is, then try it, you'll learn more that way.  You'll begin to get a grasp of when engines are good enough, and when simpler is good enough. 
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DG

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Re: I've hit a plateau, can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2012, 08:38:00 pm »
+1

Game 1 : Labs + secret chamber is an old fashioned working deck and you should probably look to that and add then add tunnels, with oracle as bonus. Starting with oracle and tunnel is hit and miss and can leave you waiting a long time for those labs.
Game 2: Similar problem in not getting the immediate income. Oracle/silver, courtyard/silver, militia/silver are all reasonable. I suspect Golems should come into play here as everything good in the deck comes through the actions.
Game 3: Can't ignore the alchemy with both familiar and university here. It's a colony game so there's time for the potion cost cards to pay off. There are far too many tempting goodies coming from the university. The familiar can deal curses far too quickly for a salvager to recover.
Game 4: There's no good development path for your deck with the remodel here. I'm not seeing any tempo gained by remodelling low cost cards to pawns, wishing wells or silvers. Also, your deck finished as a council room + money deck and chapel isn't a particularly effective way of getting there.
Game 5: With no action engine here you need to move to a money deck as quickly as you can and draw up money to buy provinces. Jack of all trades can do this for you perhaps with a shanty town. Can you make a slightly better deck by going through a remake? Maybe, but it will be harder work than jack + treasures. All the stuff you did with islands lost tempo when you really needed a hand with 8 coins worth of  treasure.
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mDuo13

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Re: I've hit a plateau, can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2012, 12:33:43 am »
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Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I'm glad I made this thread because there are definitely good points here that I wouldn't have seen on my own.

A lot of the advice here includes things that I "thought" I've been doing -- stuff like keeping track of how many terminals vs. non-terminals I have in my deck, opening with things that advance the money of my deck. It sounds like somehow recently I've lapsed on those. (I think I may have been getting a little too carried away overestimating the power of certain cards, like Tunnel.)

One thing I've noticed about my playstyle before is that I tend to "go with the flow" more than most people advise, buying whatever is available or adding things to my deck as is convenient rather than forcing a specific strategy. In some cases, it sounds like that really haunted me. I will make an effort to be more diligent on that front as well.

To clarify a couple things -- I don't prefer Veto mode, but I'll play it as a way to get faster matchmaking. When it does come up, I always click "Veto Random Card" without even thinking. I guess this puts me at a slight disadvantage versus my opponent, who gets to influence the board to his liking, but I'd rather just learn to play on any board that comes my way (for now). And two, I don't actually think that I'm losing mostly to bad luck. If I had played better, I'm sure I could've won most (if not all) of the games in the OP by taking the lead more decisively so that a tiny bit of bad luck wouldn't throw me off. My comment about bad luck was more about how it feels -- my current inability to identify the flaws in my play, and thus why I opened the thread. Finally, three, I don't like point tracker. I prefer the game if players are forced to keep track of points in their heads (which I try to do, but not always successfully). That said, if the point tracker is available, I will use it (and only end the game if I win by doing so).

I learned a couple things just in this thread: one, Masquerade is a better BM enabler than Chapel (should've kinda figured that out, myself, but whatever). Two, opening Walled Village STILL isn't a good idea when you're trying to get multiple Goons out. Three, Familiar (and cursers in general) get MORE powerful in Colony games. I had thought that with the added time that a Colony game takes, I'd get more chances to trash the Curses out with a slower trasher like Salvager. My mistake -- what it means is that my opponent has even more time to get farther ahead while I'm trying to deal with the curses.

Once again, thanks for the advice.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 01:01:26 am by mDuo13 »
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occupy grand market

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Re: I've hit a plateau, can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2012, 12:58:46 am »
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One thing I've noticed about my playstyle before is that I tend to "go with the flow" more than most people advise, buying whatever is available or adding things to my deck as is convenient rather than forcing a specific strategy. In some cases, it sounds like that really haunted me. I will make an effort to be more diligent on that front as well.

Just thought I'd chime in and mention I've noticed this about my own play. It doesn't always affect me, especially with cards I know very well, but often when I play an opponent ranked in the 30s or 40s I start to feel that they know what they're doing in some essential way that I don't. And I get crushed in that situation. The other situation where I have recently been ridiculously, just ridiculously slaughtered is when the game has cards I love and I go for them without really looking at the others for context. Both situations seem to share some kind of complacency on my part.
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mDuo13

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Re: I've hit a plateau, can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2012, 01:45:11 am »
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One thing I've noticed about my playstyle before is that I tend to "go with the flow" more than most people advise, buying whatever is available or adding things to my deck as is convenient rather than forcing a specific strategy. In some cases, it sounds like that really haunted me. I will make an effort to be more diligent on that front as well.

Just thought I'd chime in and mention I've noticed this about my own play. It doesn't always affect me, especially with cards I know very well, but often when I play an opponent ranked in the 30s or 40s I start to feel that they know what they're doing in some essential way that I don't. And I get crushed in that situation. The other situation where I have recently been ridiculously, just ridiculously slaughtered is when the game has cards I love and I go for them without really looking at the others for context. Both situations seem to share some kind of complacency on my part.

Yeah, I tried to focus on this a bit tonight and there was one case where it really felt like it made a difference. I was playing a game with a bunch of Highways, needed a Workers Village really badly but kept not buying it because I had more than enough money and figured I'd buy something more expensive now when I could and buy the WV later -- well, after a couple tries I realized that the WV was worth more to my deck than more expensive stuff like Gold in this situation and that getting one now would help with getting more later as well... so I just sucked up and bought it and was very glad for that decision -- even though I wasted something like $5 in doing so, I think it was worth it.
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paddyodoors

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Re: I've hit a plateau, can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2012, 07:15:57 am »
+1

Hey, solid post, all things I need to work on, too.  I wanted to comment briefly on these two points:

... To clarify a couple things -- I don't prefer Veto mode, but I'll play it as a way to get faster matchmaking. When it does come up, I always click "Veto Random Card" without even thinking. I guess this puts me at a slight disadvantage versus my opponent, who gets to influence the board to his liking, but I'd rather just learn to play on any board that comes my way (for now)....

... That said, if the point tracker is available, I will use it (and only end the game if I win by doing so)...

I've never, ever, ever had any issues finding a quick game after selecting "no" for the veto option on the automatch bar.  The only time I play veto is when someone invites me to a game, and that isn't by my design, but for the same reason you will tolerate it.  Either way, don't worry about "just say[ing] no to veto!", you'll still be able to play just as much.

And as for the point tracker, I also do not prefer it, but my preference against it is not strong.  So I usually leave that under the "don't care" option, and have found that if two players are paired who both "don't care" about the tracker, then it is NOT used.  So, that lets me get matched up with people who want it, while keeping most of my games tracker-free.

Just my 2 cents.  YMMV.
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shark_bait

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Re: I've hit a plateau, can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2012, 07:28:05 am »
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One thing I've noticed about my playstyle before is that I tend to "go with the flow" more than most people advise, buying whatever is available or adding things to my deck as is convenient rather than forcing a specific strategy. In some cases, it sounds like that really haunted me. I will make an effort to be more diligent on that front as well.

Just thought I'd chime in and mention I've noticed this about my own play. It doesn't always affect me, especially with cards I know very well, but often when I play an opponent ranked in the 30s or 40s I start to feel that they know what they're doing in some essential way that I don't. And I get crushed in that situation. The other situation where I have recently been ridiculously, just ridiculously slaughtered is when the game has cards I love and I go for them without really looking at the others for context. Both situations seem to share some kind of complacency on my part.

Yeah, I tried to focus on this a bit tonight and there was one case where it really felt like it made a difference. I was playing a game with a bunch of Highways, needed a Workers Village really badly but kept not buying it because I had more than enough money and figured I'd buy something more expensive now when I could and buy the WV later -- well, after a couple tries I realized that the WV was worth more to my deck than more expensive stuff like Gold in this situation and that getting one now would help with getting more later as well... so I just sucked up and bought it and was very glad for that decision -- even though I wasted something like $5 in doing so, I think it was worth it.

That's a very good point to bring up.  To increase your level of play, you need to recognize that the best card for your deck is not always the one that uses all of your money.  It's an area I know I can improve on as it's not always clear cut what the best decision is.
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Toblakai

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Re: I've hit a plateau, can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2012, 07:49:45 am »
+2

I was stuck hovering between lvl 24-28 when I found



and after watching a bunch of WW games and taking what tips I could from it, I finally broke the 30 barrier.  However you may wanna keep this on the DL, as my girlfriend thinks I have sunk to new levels of dorkiness for spending time watching videos of other people playing Dominion.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 07:27:29 pm by Toblakai »
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jsh357

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Re: I've hit a plateau, can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2012, 08:01:04 am »
+1

I was stuck hovering between lvl 24-28 when I found



and after watching a bunch of WW games and taking what tips I could from it, I finally broke the 30 barrier.  However you may wanna keep this on the DL, as my girlfriend thinks I have suck to new levels of dorkiness for spending time watching videos of other people playing Dominion.

Well don't stop there, you gotta watch jonts26 and olneyce too!
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WanderingWinder

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Re: I've hit a plateau, can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2012, 10:03:56 am »
+1

I was stuck hovering between lvl 24-28 when I found



and after watching a bunch of WW games and taking what tips I could from it, I finally broke the 30 barrier.  However you may wanna keep this on the DL, as my girlfriend thinks I have suck to new levels of dorkiness for spending time watching videos of other people playing Dominion.

Well don't stop there, you gotta watch jonts26 and olneyce too!
If they'd make more....
I try to watch all of their videos, and yours too (don't sell yourself short!)

jonts26

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Re: I've hit a plateau, can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2012, 11:55:49 am »
0

I really should make more. I'm so lazy sometimes.
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mDuo13

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Re: I've hit a plateau, can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2012, 07:21:24 pm »
0

To update on my progress: yesterday wasn't especially good (I dropped from lv. 22 back to lv. 21) but today has been a day of success with a nice variety of alternate VP strategies:
* IGG Duchy rush (strengthened by Envoy)
* Horse Traders / Duke
* Vineyards (supported by Festival/Workshop)
* probably a few others that I forgot.

Of course, I'm currently sitting around getting triple-possessed by my opponent, but them's the breaks. I'm looking forward to watching some of WW's videos.
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occupy grand market

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Re: I've hit a plateau, can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2012, 07:52:49 pm »
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I've been doing quite well since seeing this thread and I think a big reason why is I'm going "back to basics" - making sure to buy a lot of money, keeping a low number of terminal action cards, etc. I think I was really going hard for exotic strategies and reproducing the best hands I'd ever had, and stuff like that. These are probably bigger issues for me than for most people, but keeping myself realistic about draws and reminding myself I've got an opponent who's doing his or her thing while I do mine are huge, too.
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