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[WestCoastDidds]

Sorry Didds, but I really think that

I think faust is the way to go here.

is significantly more committal than

I tend to think that cuzz is the common denominator in many exile pools.

and honestly it doesn't reflect well on you that you're trying to argue otherwise.

You are cherry picking. I also listed my tops choices as Didds: Cuzz, EFHW on my list to find the best place to consolidate. If your claim is that I was hedging, it’s not true. If it’s something else, I’m not getting it.

[WestCoastDidds]

And it is not for nothing that I am SUPER uncomfortable in a situation where I have to prove that I am telling the truth and someone else is lying. I would never, ever seek to create a situation where I would have to do this.

Why would you try to Track scum then? The entire point of doing that is to create this situation. Why not try to confirm scola as Town instead?

It’s the best way I can help town win. That doesn’t mean that I’m enjoying any part of this.

[Jimmmmm]

You didn't just say you wouldn't enjoy it, you said you'd never do it.

[WestCoastDidds]

You didn't just say you wouldn't enjoy it, you said you'd never do it.

I wouldn’t if I had a choice, ie, a fake claim.

What is the point of this? You obviously don’t believe me anyway

[WestCoastDidds]

Actually, you fully believe me. This is all just a performance for you. Regardless, there’s no point.

EFHW? Scola? Where you at?

[Jimmmmm]

You didn't just say you wouldn't enjoy it, you said you'd never do it.

I wouldn’t if I had a choice, ie, a fake claim.

What is the point of this? You obviously don’t believe me anyway

If you were Town you would have had a choice. You're saying you chose to Track someone who you could have already deduced was scum and who could have offered a perfectly good reason for targeting the NK over someone who was less clear and potentially could have been added to your "Towncore".

Obviously I no longer have the need to determine your alignment, but I'm in potentially the best position to convince the two people whose votes matter Today of what I know.

[Jimmmmm]

Actually, you fully believe me.

Nice catch

[EFHW]

And it is not for nothing that I am SUPER uncomfortable in a situation where I have to prove that I am telling the truth and someone else is lying. I would never, ever seek to create a situation where I would have to do this. If I was scumbuddies with Cuzz, he could have claimed Tracker and I could be the VT. I think you know this about me but if you think through how this would have played out in a chat, you’ll see that this is not ever the play I’d make. I am only in this situation because of my role and I would LOVE not having to be. I really dislike it when people don’t trust me and I take hard (my issue, no one else’s) so I avoid this however possible.

I also don't really get this. Cuzz was exiled yesterday in part because he was a VT. Why do you think people would have trusted you more had you claimed VT?

I don’t know about trust. I’m saying that if I was scum I’d never be the one to make a fake claim that could even potentially put me in a 1v1 with anyone.

This rings true, actually.

[EFHW]

Actually, you fully believe me.

Nice catch

I'm not following this exchange.

[EFHW]

@faust You said 2 scum in {scola/Didds/Jimmmmm}, but then you have me as the 2nd scum.

Well you should read on at "On the other hand".

oh, I see. I disagreed with that premise. I think it's possible scum didn't think that completely through (about preventing an IC).

I think that's possible. But there's also the wagon analysis. Though looking back at the VCA now, scola was on your D1 wagon and Didds on your D3 wagon, so if that's the team then it would make sense that more scum didn't vote for you.

Not following this argument, either.

[Jimmmmm]

Actually, you fully believe me.

Nice catch

I'm not following this exchange.

It was in reference to her saying that I didn't believe her and then correcting herself, since that only makes sense if I'm Town. It doesn't really make sense either way since there's obviously no more belief or otherwise between us. I mostly just found it funny.

[Jimmmmm]

You would not know how to interpret your result and the likely nk went unmatched.

Sorry I'm having trouble parsing this sentence.

Can you clarify this please?

[faust]

And it is not for nothing that I am SUPER uncomfortable in a situation where I have to prove that I am telling the truth and someone else is lying. I would never, ever seek to create a situation where I would have to do this. If I was scumbuddies with Cuzz, he could have claimed Tracker and I could be the VT. I think you know this about me but if you think through how this would have played out in a chat, you’ll see that this is not ever the play I’d make. I am only in this situation because of my role and I would LOVE not having to be. I really dislike it when people don’t trust me and I take hard (my issue, no one else’s) so I avoid this however possible.

I also don't really get this. Cuzz was exiled yesterday in part because he was a VT. Why do you think people would have trusted you more had you claimed VT?

I don’t know about trust. I’m saying that if I was scum I’d never be the one to make a fake claim that could even potentially put me in a 1v1 with anyone.

This rings true, actually.

It's possible that a fake PR claim is the best way to avoid scrutiny. Like scum!Didds may actually have some PR that was targeting the people that she claimed to have targeted, and so it's best to do that claim. Furthermore, while I believe that Didds for herself would not have chosen the most confrontative course, she has partners, and if those partners agreed that she should go for the Tracker claim then I don't think that Didds would deny them.

[faust]

@faust You said 2 scum in {scola/Didds/Jimmmmm}, but then you have me as the 2nd scum.

Well you should read on at "On the other hand".

oh, I see. I disagreed with that premise. I think it's possible scum didn't think that completely through (about preventing an IC).

I think that's possible. But there's also the wagon analysis. Though looking back at the VCA now, scola was on your D1 wagon and Didds on your D3 wagon, so if that's the team then it would make sense that more scum didn't vote for you.

Not following this argument, either.

So for me, one major reason for suspecting you was/is this: Twice during the game, there were major wagons on you (rsp. fang) that consisted mostly of town players. If you were town, then scum would be very happy to join such a wagon. The wagons were thus:

D1 wagon: joth, Robz888, scolapasta, mcmcsalot
D3 wagon: joth, Didds, shraeye

So both only have one unknown. The only way there was scum on both wagons is if the team is scola/Didds. This seems more likely to me now, and so it is also more likely that you are town.

[Fun fact: When typing "scola" up there, I first accidentally typed "scuma".]

[faust]

Anyways I realize I'm falling into a pattern in which I entrench myself in a position when questioned on it (in this case, the Didds scum read). I definitely need to do some evaluation of the game under the lens that Jimmmmm might be scum.

[faust]

So there has not been a wagon on Jimmmmm, but at one point I tried to start one, and we can take a look at how that was received. Maybe this gives some clues as to alignment and possible partners.

I look at that vote count, and you know what I really want to do?

Vote: Jimmmmm

well for a long time everyone just sort of ignores it. This is somewhat scummy, though it should also be noted that one of Jimmmmm's partners is absent. Also there is an EFang wagon going at the time and if EFHW is town then it's very much possible that scum prefer that exile.

While you're here, want to share you opinions on Jimmmmm?

I don't see him providing any forward momentum. I have no reason not to vote for him, really, if the collective wisdom is that fang is a bad choice. But fang has more traction right now, if I recall correctly

Didds in particular does not want to leave the EFang wagon.

I challenge everyone who like to share their reads to post their opininion on Jimmmmm.

I think Jimmm has been asking sensible / useful questions. A lot of them I'm like "I can see why you're asking that". He's also reached some conclusions, which I have found helpful.

Day 1 his questions to mcmc and myself felt like being a peacemaker in that situation. Knowing (as I do) that mcmc and I are both town makes me think that Jimmm is town - why would scum try to get 2 townies to stop scum-reading each other?

Day 2 the long post about Scola's repeated "everything is NAI" helped persuade me to vote for scola at that time.

Those are the ones that spring to mind without me needing to go and reread.

fang provides a more explicit town read on Jimmmmm. This is of particular note because fang is the only major wagon at the time and if scum he would presumably be quite happy about an alternative. But he does not go there. There's two ways to interpret this from a scum!fang perspective:
1. Jimmmmm is a partner and fang doesn't want the two major wagons to be both on scum.
2. Jimmmmm is town and fang does not want to antagonize him because Jimmmmm is currently still off the fang wagon.

Unfortunately I find it hard to decide between these two, so the whole thing is kind of whatever.

Oh and to answer something faust asked - Jimm to me is in asimilar spot as WCD, difficult for me to read this game in either direction.

I could maybe move there but not my tpo choice or 2.

Is no one else feeling joth?

And scola is noncommittal. Which probably means that scola isn't EFang's partner because otherwise he'd want to get this Jimmmm wagon going. It's als certainly possible that he's partnered with Jimmmmm.

So overall I'm not getting a lot out of this. At face value Didds' post seems the most like it could belong to scum!Jimmmmm's partner, but of course that is now an incredibly unlikely scenario.

[faust]

What is notable from this time though is that Jimmmm definitely pushed Cuzz for a while. Could be bussing, I suppose, but it gives some town points.

[faust]

There is also the angle of Cuzz's role to consider. A Mafia Goon could have been incentivized to vote for him. But then Jimmmm switched away from Cuzz again, so that wasn't happening.

So right now, the vote count is like so:

infangthief (3): joth, Didds, shraeye
shraeye (3): Swowl, Jimmmmm, Cuzz
Jimmmmm (1): faust
Didds (1): infangthief
joth (1): scolapasta

This vote count is also notable. Is a scumteam of Jimmmmm and Cuzz suddenly going to both join on shraeye, when there is a perfectly fine fang exile ready to go? I guess that could be a saving move if the scumteam is Jimmmm/Cuzz/EFang, but otherwise?

[faust]

There is a final thing that is very much worth paying attention to: During pretty much all of D3, EFang has super consistently pushed Didds, and Didds was also pretty consistent in pushing EFang. Now this is definitely a situation that I would say scum!Didds does not want to be in if scum!EFang is her partner.

What this then kind of means for potential scumteams is:
Didds/Jimmmmm - I mean come on, I can't see it
Didds/EFHW - very unlikely because of the above
Didds/scola - certainly still possible
scola/Jimmmmmm - this is a bit funky with the claimed reasoning that Jimmmmm gave for his targeting, but I guess it could be orchestrated
scola/EFHW - Those two have been pushing each other pretty hard all game, to a point where I still wonder whether that's reasonable bussing. I'm not striking them but it's the least likely option of the non-struck ones. It also means that somehow both Jimmmm and Didds have to be town.
Jimmmmm/EFHW - this is also quite possible

This analysis starts to lead me to a place where maybe Didds isn't the best exile option because only one scum pairing I haven't ruled out includes her.

[faust]

The problem is, of course, that my most likely teams are mutually exclusive 

[faust]

Let's just briefly consider possible ways that scum could have to manipulate results in a way that leads to town!Didds and town!Jimmmmm being at each other's throats.

Redirector redirecting Didds: Well Jimmmmm would need to have seen the Redirector targeting Didds, so nope.
Redirector redirecting Jimmmmm onto Swowl: I'm not sure what the purpose of that would be... also then Jimmmmm should see the Redirector targeting Swowl, so nope.
Deflector deflecting from Jimmmmm to scum: This is an option the does not have any immediate problem, though I feel like they would rather want to deflect the other way around.
Deflector deflecting from Didds to Swowl: Jimmmmm would have seen this, so nope.
Bus Driver bus driving Jimmmmm and scum: Probably the most likely way to create a mess here. It's still a little weird because Jimmmmm might well target the NK, and in this case the Bus Driving doesn't help at all.
Bus Driver bus driving Didds and Swowl: Jimmmmm would have seen this, so nope.
Some version of Framer framing Jimmmmm: Well that would be a pretty specific and rarely-used role to include. It also would have to hide Jimmmmm's actual target. It's borderline possible, we have seen an invented role flip from scum, but it's a fringe theory.

[faust]

Should we strike the scola/EFHW team? Honestly yes. If scum pulled off that Bus Drive, then gg I guess.

[EFHW]

You would not know how to interpret your result and the likely nk went unmatched.

Sorry I'm having trouble parsing this sentence.

Can you clarify this please?

Watching a pr would not be as helpful as it might seem because it would be too hard to interpret any result, as we are aeeing with Didds' and scola's results on you. And it means that the likely nk went unwatched, even though that information would be bery helpful.

[EFHW]

And it is not for nothing that I am SUPER uncomfortable in a situation where I have to prove that I am telling the truth and someone else is lying. I would never, ever seek to create a situation where I would have to do this. If I was scumbuddies with Cuzz, he could have claimed Tracker and I could be the VT. I think you know this about me but if you think through how this would have played out in a chat, you’ll see that this is not ever the play I’d make. I am only in this situation because of my role and I would LOVE not having to be. I really dislike it when people don’t trust me and I take hard (my issue, no one else’s) so I avoid this however possible.

I also don't really get this. Cuzz was exiled yesterday in part because he was a VT. Why do you think people would have trusted you more had you claimed VT?

I don’t know about trust. I’m saying that if I was scum I’d never be the one to make a fake claim that could even potentially put me in a 1v1 with anyone.

This rings true, actually.

It's possible that a fake PR claim is the best way to avoid scrutiny. Like scum!Didds may actually have some PR that was targeting the people that she claimed to have targeted, and so it's best to do that claim. Furthermore, while I believe that Didds for herself would not have chosen the most confrontative course, she has partners, and if those partners agreed that she should go for the Tracker claim then I don't think that Didds would deny them.

right, but it makes my double bussingvtheory less likely.

[Jimmmmm]

Let's just briefly consider possible ways that scum could have to manipulate results in a way that leads to town!Didds and town!Jimmmmm being at each other's throats.

Redirector redirecting Didds: Well Jimmmmm would need to have seen the Redirector targeting Didds, so nope.
Redirector redirecting Jimmmmm onto Swowl: I'm not sure what the purpose of that would be... also then Jimmmmm should see the Redirector targeting Swowl, so nope.
Deflector deflecting from Jimmmmm to scum: This is an option the does not have any immediate problem, though I feel like they would rather want to deflect the other way around.
Deflector deflecting from Didds to Swowl: Jimmmmm would have seen this, so nope.
Bus Driver bus driving Jimmmmm and scum: Probably the most likely way to create a mess here. It's still a little weird because Jimmmmm might well target the NK, and in this case the Bus Driving doesn't help at all.
Bus Driver bus driving Didds and Swowl: Jimmmmm would have seen this, so nope.
Some version of Framer framing Jimmmmm: Well that would be a pretty specific and rarely-used role to include. It also would have to hide Jimmmmm's actual target. It's borderline possible, we have seen an invented role flip from scum, but it's a fringe theory.

I'm sufficiently comfortable that all of this breaks the spirit of no Miler/Godfather to dismiss all of these possibilities.