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[EFHW]

snip

There is no dealing with the rest later! Exiling Cuzz means losing the game! Maybe instead we actually try to win the game and exile someone from the Faust/EFHW or scola/Jimmmmm pairs where we know there is scum!
[/quote]

You are being misleading here. We don't know there is scum in faust/EFHW. Similarly, we don't know there is scum in scola/Jimmmmm. You have decided for yourself there is only one bomb. That doesn't mean you know there is only one bomb. It seems very unlikely both scola and Jimmmmm are town, but we don't know anything. We also don't know that exiling Cuzz means losing the game!

[EFHW]

You did all your VCA and didn't notice that anyone who suspects EFang ends up dead?

Would scum be that jumpy? mcmc did push fang, with some doubts mid-Day 1. But it didn't get much traction. Do you think all the other people who received suspicion were town? Mcmc was pretty town, even if he was kind of fast and loose at times. He's a strong player. There are other reasons to nk him.

[Swowl]

Unvote

[Swowl]

So what you're saying is, instead of following Swowl's vibes, we should be following your vibes?

Yes that’s essentially the premise of the game. But I’m not the one who threw out a completely reckless vote in xlo which fortunately seems not to have screwed us so far.

How is my vote reckless compared to his? is that just omgus?

Also, while it is xlo... most likely... still need 3 to log on and vote bud. It would have to be coordinated for them to risk a quicky... don't see that one happening, so everyone should chill on that point.

[Swowl]

Town Faust in this situation should not be suspecting EFHW, they should be looking at outside factors under the consideration that EFHW could be town.

What on earth? This is precisely what town faust would be doing! Why is everyone defaulting to trying to believe that everyone’s claims are probably true and looking at the extreme periphery of the space of possibilities when the absolute most obvious conclusion here is that there’s exactly one scum between Faust and efhw?

This is exactly the point I made that you called “annoyingly well said”

If it makes you feel any better - I don't think your claim is true.

[faust]

So what you're saying is, instead of following Swowl's vibes, we should be following your vibes?

Yes that’s essentially the premise of the game. But I’m not the one who threw out a completely reckless vote in xlo which fortunately seems not to have screwed us so far.

How is my vote reckless compared to his? is that just omgus?

Also, while it is xlo... most likely... still need 3 to log on and vote bud. It would have to be coordinated for them to risk a quicky... don't see that one happening, so everyone should chill on that point.

I mean, you were asleep presumably. There was enough time for scum to coordinate a quickhammer. It's notable that this didn't happen, and that scola didn't post in between your last post and now.

But really what cripples the quickhammer ability is probably the replacement. Scum has no way to know EFHW's availability.

[faust]

You did all your VCA and didn't notice that anyone who suspects EFang ends up dead?

Would scum be that jumpy? mcmc did push fang, with some doubts mid-Day 1. But it didn't get much traction. Do you think all the other people who received suspicion were town? Mcmc was pretty town, even if he was kind of fast and loose at times. He's a strong player. There are other reasons to nk him.

Sure, I don't think it would be the only reason. A nightkill is always a bundle of reasons I think. Whether they suspect you may be one of them.

[faust]

So what you're saying is, instead of following Swowl's vibes, we should be following your vibes?

Yes that’s essentially the premise of the game. But I’m not the one who threw out a completely reckless vote in xlo which fortunately seems not to have screwed us so far.

You're the one who gives zero reasoning for any of their opinions. How is that helpful at this stage?

[scolapasta]

So what you're saying is, instead of following Swowl's vibes, we should be following your vibes?

Yes that’s essentially the premise of the game. But I’m not the one who threw out a completely reckless vote in xlo which fortunately seems not to have screwed us so far.

I'm here, just too busy with work to post. But if I were scum (and thought we could get the quick exile) I owuld have been around to fo that.

Not especially notable, since no one else voted (i.e. as scum I don't think I'd put the 2nd vote in either).

OK, back to the grind, more later...

How is my vote reckless compared to his? is that just omgus?

Also, while it is xlo... most likely... still need 3 to log on and vote bud. It would have to be coordinated for them to risk a quicky... don't see that one happening, so everyone should chill on that point.

I mean, you were asleep presumably. There was enough time for scum to coordinate a quickhammer. It's notable that this didn't happen, and that scola didn't post in between your last post and now.

But really what cripples the quickhammer ability is probably the replacement. Scum has no way to know EFHW's availability.

[scolapasta]

So what you're saying is, instead of following Swowl's vibes, we should be following your vibes?

Yes that’s essentially the premise of the game. But I’m not the one who threw out a completely reckless vote in xlo which fortunately seems not to have screwed us so far.

I'm here, just too busy with work to post. But if I were scum (and thought we could get the quick exile) I owuld have been around to fo that.

Not especially notable, since no one else voted (i.e. as scum I don't think I'd put the 2nd vote in either).

OK, back to the grind, more later...

How is my vote reckless compared to his? is that just omgus?

Also, while it is xlo... most likely... still need 3 to log on and vote bud. It would have to be coordinated for them to risk a quicky... don't see that one happening, so everyone should chill on that point.

I mean, you were asleep presumably. There was enough time for scum to coordinate a quickhammer. It's notable that this didn't happen, and that scola didn't post in between your last post and now.

But really what cripples the quickhammer ability is probably the replacement. Scum has no way to know EFHW's availability.

Whoops, types in wrong space:

I'm here, just too busy with work to post. But if I were scum (and thought we could get the quick exile) I owuld have been around to fo that.

Not especially notable, since no one else voted (i.e. as scum I don't think I'd put the 2nd vote in either).

OK, back to the grind, more later...

[Swowl]

OK Day 2.

Vote Count 2.1
joth (2): infangthief, Awaclus
No Exile (2): faust, Didds
infangthief (1): joth
shraeye (1): Swowl
Not Voting (4): Jimmmmm, shraeye, scolapasta, Cuzz

So recap... to this point we have faust pushing No Exile, Didds following. EFANG is on one for Joth. Pasta has just posted a case on Joth saying they may be voting there. I am tunneled on Shraeye at this point still.

Pasta votes Joth
Cuzz votes Pasta
Shraeye votes Cuzz
Joth votes No Exile

That gets us to this point.
Vote Count 2.1.5
joth (3): infangthief, Awaclus, scolapasta
No Exile (2): faust, Didds
infangthief (1): joth
shraeye (1): Swowl
scolapasta (1): Cuzz
Cuzz (1): Shraeye
Not Voting (1): Jimmmmm

The obvious argument at this point is that skum would probably not want to go no exile if possible, so sus in between fang and pasta. But let's see how things move...

Swowl votes Didds
Cuzz Unvotes

Vote Count 2.2
joth (3): infangthief, Awaclus, scolapasta
No Exile (3): faust, Didds, joth
Cuzz (1): shraeye
Didds (1): Swowl
Not Voting (2): Jimmmmm, Cuzz

So we are pretty spread out still, and the only thing we know is that JOth is a Town wagon. but as the counter wagon is no one... it does not put us in a great place info wise. pretty much just still fos on fang and pasta.

faust votes pasta
Joth votes fang

Ok now that is an interesting 2 moves... that brings the no ex wagon to 1 and Joth is still at 3.

Swowl unvotes
Awaclus votes Pasta

Vote Count 2.3
joth (2): infangthief, scolapasta
scolapasta (2): faust, Awaclus
No Exile (1): Didds
Cuzz (1): shraeye
infangthief (1): joth
Not Voting (3): Jimmmmm, Cuzz, Swowl

So this is now the point where we have 2 "wagons" but neither of them are NOEX. We know Joth is town so still FOS there, but we are looking for people that "potentially" avoid pasta.

Jimmm votes NOEX
Joth votes Pasta
Fang votes Pasta
Cuzz votes Pasta
Joth unvotes Pasta

scolapasta (5): faust, Awaclus, infangthief, Cuzz, joth
joth (1): scolapasta
No Exile (1): Didds
Cuzz (1): shraeye
Not Voting (3): Jimmmmm, Swowl

so we had the joth wagon fall apart, which was town. the noex wagon fall apart... which is ?... and then now we have 3 unkowns on the unknown Pasta wagon (2 of which were previously on the other *not skum* wagons).... so that is kind of a towny look for pasta at this point I guess. At this point you have to kind of look at it 1 of 2 ways. Pasta is town = probably 2 skum on the wagon, or Pasta is Skum = .... honestly? probably 2 skum off the wagon?

Jimmm votes NOEX
Pasta votes NOEX
faust votes NOEX
Swowl votes NOEX

No Exile (5): Didds, Jimmm, scolapasta, faust, Swowl
scolapasta (4): , Awaclus, infangthief, Cuzz, joth
Cuzz (1): shraeye

Jimmm moving to NOEX could be protecting pasta, except with the info we have now in the game... unlikely. Pasta moving to NOEX is whatever. faust moving off of pasta is sooooo risky if pasta is skum in this spot. I want to kind of say that they would stay bussed if that were a thing. I was never voting pasta at this point.

Awaclus votes Shraeye - lame, pasta is now safe.
Shraeye votes Pasta - brings it back to 1

Vote Count 2.5 *3 hours to DL*
No Exile (5): Didds, Jimmmmm, scolapasta, faust, Swowl
scolapasta (4): infangthief, Cuzz, joth, shraeye
shraeye (1): Awaclus

ok so this is legit nuts. We have 3 hours to go. If pasta is skum, then there are likely 2 (or at least 1) skum in [WCD, Jimmm, faust. They don't want to no ex, but they would take it over exiling they mate. It really can't be JImmm unless its a deep fake on claims... and to a lesser extent same logic for WCD. so that would be FOS at faust if pasta is skum.
However, we don't know pasta is skum... they could be town. If they are town it is way more straightforward - Fang and Cuzz look bad.

Eventually Awa moves to noEX and we end here.

Vote Count 2.Final
No Exile (6): Didds, Jimmmmm, scolapasta, faust, Swowl, Awaclus
scolapasta (4): infangthief, Cuzz, joth, shraeye

So as to be the theme of this game... it all comes down to Pasta. I am inclined to say that the quickness in which the pasta wagon picked up makes me want to say townpasta and then fang and Cuzz are lead suspects on the day - but you can interpret it however you want. Hard to do without a red flip...

[WestCoastDidds]

Swowl, I find your VCAs super helpful. I know it’s an ish ton of work, so thank you.

[EFHW]

So what you're saying is, instead of following Swowl's vibes, we should be following your vibes?

Yes that’s essentially the premise of the game. But I’m not the one who threw out a completely reckless vote in xlo which fortunately seems not to have screwed us so far.

How is my vote reckless compared to his? is that just omgus?

Also, while it is xlo... most likely... still need 3 to log on and vote bud. It would have to be coordinated for them to risk a quicky... don't see that one happening, so everyone should chill on that point.

I mean, you were asleep presumably. There was enough time for scum to coordinate a quickhammer. It's notable that this didn't happen, and that scola didn't post in between your last post and now.

But really what cripples the quickhammer ability is probably the replacement. Scum has no way to know EFHW's availability.

Now you are just tunneling.

[EFHW]

You did all your VCA and didn't notice that anyone who suspects EFang ends up dead?

Would scum be that jumpy? mcmc did push fang, with some doubts mid-Day 1. But it didn't get much traction. Do you think all the other people who received suspicion were town? Mcmc was pretty town, even if he was kind of fast and loose at times. He's a strong player. There are other reasons to nk him.

Sure, I don't think it would be the only reason. A nightkill is always a bundle of reasons I think. Whether they suspect you may be one of them.

Also it's WIFOM because since scum didn't dare nk me, they could have tried to set me up to get exiled. Imo, fang was too scummy for scum to spend a lot of resources on saving scum!him by killing his enemies. His partners would be much more likely to throw him under the bus.

[EFHW]

Sorry fang!

[EFHW]

Swowl, I find your VCAs super helpful. I know it’s an ish ton of work, so thank you.

It is very helpful. I think you underestimate faust a bit, though, saying scum!faust would never unvote scum!pasta there. He would. And he even has his history of suggesting the no exile to protect him.

[EFHW]

Pasta - 1 shot Doc/Tracker/RB (resets when all 3 are used). N1 - Track fang, N2 - Save Swowl, N3 - Block Jimmm
WCD - Tracker. N1 - Swowl, no targets; N2 - Joth, no targets; N3 - faust, no targets
Cuzz - VT
Jimmm - Watcher. N1 - faust, not targeted; N2 - Swowl, not targeted; N3 - Swowl, not targeted.
Efoo/Fang - Bomb
faust - Bomb
Swowl - VT

Dead Players:
Awaclus - Town Doctor
Robz - VT
MCMC - VT
Shraeye - VT
Joth - VT

Copied this from Swowl's post for reference.

We should add:
1. Jimmmmm says he received no notice that he was blocked N3 and
2. He should have seen scola saving Swowl N2 but didn't and again says he got no message about being blocked. 

[EFHW]

scola said he saved Swowl but Jimmmmm went ahead and claimed seeing Swowl not being targeted. (BUT he didn't call out the contradiction. That could be a style thing.) Jimmmmm's claim makes himmmmm look townier than scola.

[EFHW]

Didd's tracking targets don't ring true to me. Those were the three most consistently towny players. Why not target people getting suspicion, like fang, scola or Shraeye?

[scolapasta]

scola said he saved Swowl but Jimmmmm went ahead and claimed seeing Swowl not being targeted. (BUT he didn't call out the contradiction. That could be a style thing.) Jimmmmm's claim makes himmmmm look townier than scola.

I hadn't fully claimed when Jimmmmm claimed - so at the time the contradiction didn't exist.

[EFHW]

scola said he saved Swowl but Jimmmmm went ahead and claimed seeing Swowl not being targeted. (BUT he didn't call out the contradiction. That could be a style thing.) Jimmmmm's claim makes himmmmm look townier than scola.

I hadn't fully claimed when Jimmmmm claimed - so at the time the contradiction didn't exist.

You had claimed your targets. That was enough.

[EFHW]

Alright, I'll drop this for now. But not for good.

That’s fair

This was joth speaking about wanting to exile scola. Maybe that's why he was nk'd.

[Swowl]

Pasta - 1 shot Doc/Tracker/RB (resets when all 3 are used). N1 - Track fang, N2 - Save Swowl, N3 - Block Jimmm
WCD - Tracker. N1 - Swowl, no targets; N2 - Joth, no targets; N3 - faust, no targets
Cuzz - VT
Jimmm - Watcher. N1 - faust, not targeted; N2 - Swowl, not targeted; N3 - Swowl, not targeted.
Efoo/Fang - Bomb
faust - Bomb
Swowl - VT

Dead Players:
Awaclus - Town Doctor
Robz - VT
MCMC - VT
Shraeye - VT
Joth - VT

Copied this from Swowl's post for reference.

We should add:
1. Jimmmmm says he received no notice that he was blocked N3 and
2. He should have seen scola saving Swowl N2 but didn't and again says he got no message about being blocked.

I am so sure we are missing something obvious here and I cannot figure it out

Setup rules:
There will be no "bastard" mechanics like lying (no Miller/Godfather), alignment changing, third parties, etc. A roleblocked role that would learn something as a result of their action (like a Tracker) learns they were roleblocked, a role that does not (like a Doctor) would not learn any indication they were roleblocked.

That literally says that Tracker and Watcher will be informed if they are blocked.

So Jimmm watches me N2 and sees nothing... meaning that to make it all make sense pasta was either moved or blocked. Pasta would not be informed of a block for the doc shot. But then N3, Jimmm watches me again ... pasta blocks him... and we are saying that Jimmm did not get a message saying they were blocked that night either?

I honestly don't know what to make of it. The only way it makes sense is that pasta claimed and skum has just been like "shutting them down all game".
Or there is lying going on.

[Swowl]

The issue here is that I guess I don't see how it pans out for skum here if pasta is skum? But like equally so.. I don't see how/why Jimmm would fake claim what they did in that spot.

Is there any world that they are both town and pasta is being messed with? That seems too easy... then like no one is lying. It would have to be didds lying, Cuzz lying and then like one of the bombs lying.

[EFHW]

So under what conditions is scola possibly town?

1. He was roleblocked twice. This only works if rb doesn't affect the bomb, because if it did, scum would use it with the nk. So double roleblock is not an answer.

2. He was redirected twice. I think that is rather more chaos than fits this setup. The duels are the game mechanism. It also raises the question of why did he claim. Was he ever at X-1? This is the only scenario in which he and Jimmmmm could both be town.

3. Jimmmmm was lying to set scola up to be exiled. That's risky. He could equally well be the one exiled. He hasn't made any effort at all towards pushing a scola exile.

I gather that #2 feels likely enough to enough people that scola is being let off the hook? Second guessing the mod isn't great scumhunting, but there are other reasons to think scola is not town.

1. Seeming way too prepared with his arguments.
2. Cluttering the thread.
3. Town rb is more of a nerf than anything helpful.
But he didn't present it that way or mention thinking about that.
4. Role blocking the bomb kind of breaks the game since the point was to explore the gladiator bomb mechanic.

I have to stop here for the night, but I want to go over the VCA as well.