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[jotheonah]

if faust and scola are partners this is the boldest gambit in the history of mafia

[infangthief]

Taking time to read Scola's contributions to yesterday, I think he was not at all unprepared. He had pretty clearly planned to not make his claim more specific.

That could be town or it could be scum, but I don't see it any more likely to be a town approach than a scum approach.

So, to the extent that it is NAI, I'm still on vote: scolapasta from yesterday, and frustrated that people moved off.

[infangthief]

if faust and scola are partners this is the boldest gambit in the history of mafia

Maybe yes. But it feels like it to me.

[faust]

if faust and scola are partners this is the boldest gambit in the history of mafia

Maybe yes. But it feels like it to me.

Yesterday, before I started the scolapasta wagon, you were voting for joth. How do you feel about that now?

[faust]

if faust and scola are partners this is the boldest gambit in the history of mafia

Ah, come on. It wouldn't even be all that exciting, I'm pretty sure I have done gambits as scum that were more intense.

[jotheonah]

scola was hammerable yesterday and wasn't hammered. that's less of an ironclad tell this early in the game, but it's definitely a datapoint.

I feel like if scola were town and there were a scum off the wagon they would have gone for it 100%, right? A chance to exile a claimed PR, to eliminate a possible gladiator bomb without using the nightkill on them? I mean that's really, really attractive to scum. But he sat at X-1.

So either he's scum, scum were already fully on his wagon, or scum just happened to not be available to hammer.

[jotheonah]

this is an interesting development.
while we wait for scola (is a prod request appropriate yet?) I'd like to discuss Didds. I found her behaviour at the end of day yesterday a bit unsettling.

I have Didds in my mind as being a pro-scola exile player. But actually, Didds only voted for scola one time: at the very beginning of day 1, barely past RVS. All day on Day 2 she made it clear that she would vote for scola while not actually moving there. Very much hiding behind the "scola should claim" thing, but doing so even after many others had decided it was worth it to vote scola anyway and scola had made it clear he wouldn't claim.

Vocally supporting a wagon but not actually joining it is a classic scum thing to do, IMO. And I think if any one is to blame for getting us to NoEx instead of scola yesterday it's Didds (also Awaclus for hammering and faust for backing off).

We need a scum flip to learn anything though. IF scola is scum than yesterday's machinations become very interesting. if scola is town, they're interesting in a different way.

[jotheonah]

scola was hammerable yesterday and wasn't hammered. that's less of an ironclad tell this early in the game, but it's definitely a datapoint.

I feel like if scola were town and there were a scum off the wagon they would have gone for it 100%, right? A chance to exile a claimed PR, to eliminate a possible gladiator bomb without using the nightkill on them? I mean that's really, really attractive to scum. But he sat at X-1.

So either he's scum, scum were already fully on his wagon, or scum just happened to not be available to hammer.

This is the thing I can't get over. vote: scolapasta. And FoS: faust.

[faust]

scola was hammerable yesterday and wasn't hammered. that's less of an ironclad tell this early in the game, but it's definitely a datapoint.

I feel like if scola were town and there were a scum off the wagon they would have gone for it 100%, right? A chance to exile a claimed PR, to eliminate a possible gladiator bomb without using the nightkill on them? I mean that's really, really attractive to scum. But he sat at X-1.

So either he's scum, scum were already fully on his wagon, or scum just happened to not be available to hammer.

I mean, shraeye did intend to hammer.

[jotheonah]

scola was hammerable yesterday and wasn't hammered. that's less of an ironclad tell this early in the game, but it's definitely a datapoint.

I feel like if scola were town and there were a scum off the wagon they would have gone for it 100%, right? A chance to exile a claimed PR, to eliminate a possible gladiator bomb without using the nightkill on them? I mean that's really, really attractive to scum. But he sat at X-1.

So either he's scum, scum were already fully on his wagon, or scum just happened to not be available to hammer.

I mean, shraeye did intend to hammer.

I think scum would have just dropped the hammer. You can always justify it later -- I didn't realize how many votes there were, etc.

[faust]

scola was hammerable yesterday and wasn't hammered. that's less of an ironclad tell this early in the game, but it's definitely a datapoint.

I feel like if scola were town and there were a scum off the wagon they would have gone for it 100%, right? A chance to exile a claimed PR, to eliminate a possible gladiator bomb without using the nightkill on them? I mean that's really, really attractive to scum. But he sat at X-1.

So either he's scum, scum were already fully on his wagon, or scum just happened to not be available to hammer.

I mean, shraeye did intend to hammer.

I think scum would have just dropped the hammer. You can always justify it later -- I didn't realize how many votes there were, etc.

I can't begin to comprehend this. A quickhammer on what would be revealed to be a town PR is uber-scummy. It's safest to post intent. And there was no reason to expect that someone would move off the wagon, so there was no rush.

[faust]

Like who even was off-wagon? There were 1.5 hours in which a hammer could have been dropped.

scolapasta: Sure won't hammer himself.
Jimmmmm: Was asleep.
Didds: annnounced previously that she would not be available at the time (here)
shraeye: Did announce intent
Swowl: Did post and state that that wagon made him uneasy.

So essentially your argument boils down to: "It's not true that Swowl is scum and scola town" Which is fair enough, but hardly enough evidence for strong conclusions.

[jotheonah]

so faust is either the hero who swooped in and saved the town PR with a dramatic unvote or the scum who swooped in and saved his partner with a dramatic unvote

or he's a misguided town who, in trying to be a hero, saved scum with a dramatic unvote.

I actually think it's either 1 or 3. faust and scola as partners isn't a serious suggestion if you look at the whole of the game. faust put a lot of heat on scola that he absolutely didn't need to put on him and basically allowed all of day 2 to be about him when he could have made any number of other decisions.

OK, let's play the "scola is town" game. Who looks scummy in that situation?

Here's the vote count before faust derailed the scola exile:

scolapasta (5): faust, Awaclus, infangthief, Cuzz, joth
No Exile (3): Didds, Jimmmmm, scolapasta
Cuzz (1): shraeye

Not Voting (1): Swowl

With Shraeye expressing intent to hammer.

So obviously shraeye looks bad there. We know Awaclus is town and faust makes no sense in this scenario, so that leaves fang, Cuzz, and yours truly as possible partners. I've been scumreading fang more or less all game.

faust, why vote for fang instead of shraeye?

[jotheonah]

scolapasta: Sure won't hammer himself.

to be fair, there is precedent

[jotheonah]

scola was hammerable yesterday and wasn't hammered. that's less of an ironclad tell this early in the game, but it's definitely a datapoint.

I feel like if scola were town and there were a scum off the wagon they would have gone for it 100%, right? A chance to exile a claimed PR, to eliminate a possible gladiator bomb without using the nightkill on them? I mean that's really, really attractive to scum. But he sat at X-1.

So either he's scum, scum were already fully on his wagon, or scum just happened to not be available to hammer.

I mean, shraeye did intend to hammer.

I think scum would have just dropped the hammer. You can always justify it later -- I didn't realize how many votes there were, etc.

I can't begin to comprehend this. A quickhammer on what would be revealed to be a town PR is uber-scummy. It's safest to post intent. And there was no reason to expect that someone would move off the wagon, so there was no rush.

I don't agree 100% -- I think a lot of scum players would go for it and trust that they could talk their way out of it, too scummy to be scum, etc. But I think you're right that a good chunk of them would post intent, especially because there was no prior indication that someone would back off of the wagon like you did.

[faust]

faust, why vote for fang instead of shraeye?

I have my reasons, and I am not principally opposed to sharing them, but I would rather wait to see how today plays out for a while longer. There has been an outrageous amount of people sheeping me this game and frankly I would rather see where they go without giving them a case to attach themselves to.

[jotheonah]

well jokes on you because I'm sheeping you anyway

vote: infangthief

or are you sheeping me? I've been beating the fang is scum drum since day 1.

[faust]

well jokes on you because I'm sheeping you anyway

vote: infangthief

or are you sheeping me? I've been beating the fang is scum drum since day 1.

Ha, you cannot beat my D1 vote!

Vote: fang

[WestCoastDidds]

this is an interesting development.
while we wait for scola (is a prod request appropriate yet?) I'd like to discuss Didds. I found her behaviour at the end of day yesterday a bit unsettling.

I have Didds in my mind as being a pro-scola exile player. But actually, Didds only voted for scola one time: at the very beginning of day 1, barely past RVS. All day on Day 2 she made it clear that she would vote for scola while not actually moving there. Very much hiding behind the "scola should claim" thing, but doing so even after many others had decided it was worth it to vote scola anyway and scola had made it clear he wouldn't claim.

Vocally supporting a wagon but not actually joining it is a classic scum thing to do, IMO. And I think if any one is to blame for getting us to NoEx instead of scola yesterday it's Didds (also Awaclus for hammering and faust for backing off).

We need a scum flip to learn anything though. IF scola is scum than yesterday's machinations become very interesting. if scola is town, they're interesting in a different way.

I was on a plane and in transit in a foreign land from mid-day until after the deadline. I announced it beforehand, although I had assumed I’d be able to get back for last hour, but when I did the day was already over. Awaclus hammered 2 hours before the deadline which erased any opportunity I would have had to check back in. So, most of what you’re saying about what Scola did about his fishy Schrödinger’s pasta not claim had not happened when I was still available. I never wanted Scola to claim D2. I thought we should no exile and that he should full claim today.

I was arguing most vigorously for a non exile to move the freaking deadline. F-M days are really limiting my ability to keep up. I’m not sure why anyone needs to be blamed for the no exile. But it was what I wanted so okay. Whatever investigative roles we had did get another night to do their work, which is potentially valuable.

I have been vocal about finding Scola scummy, because I think he’s scummy. That has changed. But once we had decided to let him live D1, I don’t know why that wouldn’t hold until we actually knew the reason why he claimed he deserved to live. As far as saying I’d move my vote there and then didn’t D2, that was in the event that the collective wisdom was that no exile was a bad idea. When I lost connectivity, we weren’t even close to coalescing on anything.


Unfortunate timing, yes. Scummy, no.

[shraeye]

Here's the vote count before faust derailed the scola exile:

scolapasta (5): faust, Awaclus, infangthief, Cuzz, joth
No Exile (3): Didds, Jimmmmm, scolapasta
Cuzz (1): shraeye

Not Voting (1): Swowl

With Shraeye expressing intent to hammer.

So obviously shraeye looks bad there. We know Awaclus is town and faust makes no sense in this scenario, so that leaves fang, Cuzz, and yours truly as possible partners. I've been scumreading fang more or less all game.

faust, why vote for fang instead of shraeye?

I don't see how this looks bad for shraeye.

[shraeye]

Vote: Cuzz

[shraeye]

I get a feeling that towncore is the way to go, that's what I'm doing.  Scola is still very on the table, but if I'm looking elsewhere I see more townreads than not. 

[jotheonah]

Here's the vote count before faust derailed the scola exile:

scolapasta (5): faust, Awaclus, infangthief, Cuzz, joth
No Exile (3): Didds, Jimmmmm, scolapasta
Cuzz (1): shraeye

Not Voting (1): Swowl

With Shraeye expressing intent to hammer.

So obviously shraeye looks bad there. We know Awaclus is town and faust makes no sense in this scenario, so that leaves fang, Cuzz, and yours truly as possible partners. I've been scumreading fang more or less all game.

faust, why vote for fang instead of shraeye?

I don't see how this looks bad for shraeye.

You don't?

I said, 'if scola were town, scum would have hammered.'

Then faust said 'shraeye expressed intent to hammer'

And then I said 'scum would have just hammered'

And faust said, 'no, they would have expressed intent'.

So how do you not see that you doing the thing that we've just been talking about as the thing scum would do makes you look scummy?

[scolapasta]

I'm here. Though will be unavailable for much of (real life) today. Should be back this evening. I'll try to read through again what's been posted and post some replies.

Honestly, not sure what to do next. I still generally think thatwith gladiator bomb in the game it's best not to claim, but know that I probably will need to at some point. I think I'd prefer until (game life) tomorrow, but am not feeling as stubborn as yesterday, if there are good arguments.

[scolapasta]

I still think scola is scum.

Awaclus was an unexpected kill (as well as an unfortunate one).

I have a lot of other reads/ideas but I'm gonna keep them to myself for a bit (I know, weird)

Why unexpected?