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Author Topic: Fan Card Mechanics Week 95: Mint Condition  (Read 1550 times)

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emtzalex

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Fan Card Mechanics Week 95: Mint Condition
« on: June 21, 2024, 02:35:02 pm »
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Sorry this took a bit longer than expected to post. This seems to be a season of reruns, so for Week 95, I am going back to near the beginning of the contest, and a mechanic I came up with and used in Week 2, Conditions/Conditional cards. Thus, this week's task is simply to:

Design a Conditional card.

When a Conditional card is in the Kingdom, you play with one or more Condition that the Conditional card interacts with. A Condition is a two-sided landscape that works like universal Journey token. Conditional cards operate differently depending on what the Condition is (i.e. which side is face up), and (often) will themselves flip the condition.

You can use one or more of my Conditions (see my follow-up post), use one or more your create yourself, of use a combination thereof. Here's a template to create one side of a Condition (you'll need two).

The Conditional type is not by itself playable, so your Conditional card will need at least one other type. Feel free to include any other official or fan mechanics in the design and to use any additional cards/landscapes you want to support your card's design--and if you use a split pile or non-Supply card, you are allowed (but not required) to use multiple Conditional cards. I also won't card shaped things that interact with Conditions.


My main judging criteria is whether I would be excited to see the design in a Kingdom. Important factors for me are:
  • balance -- the card useful, but not overpowering (both in general and in a variety of Kingdoms);
  • playability -- the card is fun to play and works in more than one type of deck;
  • simplicity -- this doesn't always mean fewer words; a card with lots of text that, once you understand it, can be easily and intuitively be played is better than one with four lines of text that is hard to understand;
  • topicality -- the card uses the mechanic in an interesting way;
The deadline for submissions will be 18:35 UTC / 2:35 p.m. Eastern/Forum time on Friday, June 28, 2024. Please let me know if you have any questions.
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emtzalex

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 95: Mint Condition
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2024, 02:37:18 pm »
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Examples of Conditions

I created three (two-sided) Conditions for my "Summertime" fan expansion:

Easy Living/Hard Times:
Warm/Cool:
Rainy/Dry:

Again, you are free to use these or create your own.


Which Side Starts Face Up

If I ever update Summertime, I am going to have the cards specify which side starts face up. For now, the order on the card controls. So Warm/Cool starts with Warm face up, Rainy/Dry starts with Rainy face up, etc.


What Conditions Do

The three Conditions I created are inert--they have no effect on the game other than what how the Conditional cards intact with them, and they only flip by operation of those cards. However, this is not a rule. Feel free to create your own Conditions with functional text in their boxes (and feel free to leave off what is on the other side). One or both sides of the Condition could have an effect on the game. Alternatively, the Condition might flip itself, with the way it does so listed there.


Example of a Conditional Card


Quote
Swollen River • $5 • Action - Conditional
+1 Card
+1 Action
This turn, cards (everywhere) cost $1 less. Flip Rainy/Dry.
Then, if it's Rainy, discard 2 cards. Otherwise, +1 Buy.

When you play Swollen River it first gives you the effect of a Highway. Then, it flips the Condition Rainy/Dry. Then, depending on which side is face up (i.e. what the Condition is), it either gives +1 Buy or makes you discard. While one version (Dry) is better than Highway, the other version (Rainy) is worse.


The use of the "Conditional" type

This was the subject of some controversy the first time around. Many have pointed out that it is not necessary to have "Conditional" be a type for cards. As I mentioned, I came up with this mechanic for my Summertime expansion. I have toyed with a number of card designs (none of which I have posted) which interact with they type (usually some version of letting a player flip a Condition before/after resolving the Conditional card). Thus, I have decided to keep it as a type to leave that design space open. 
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BryGuy

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 95: Mint Condition
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2024, 11:44:51 pm »
+1

:)                                                      :)
:)                                                      :)
Quote
Muckraker • $5 • Action - Reaction - Conditional
Flip Rainy/Dry.
If it is Rainy, +4 Cards;
otherwise reveal your Deck's top five cards. Trash up to two of them. Return the rest.
-
If another player gains a Victory card, you may reveal this to flip Rainy/Dry.
:)
So here is my entry, a half Sentinel half Hunting Grounds plus a Reaction. This provides two desirable options that may have players changing the condition to either get or keep the other player from getting.
:)

emtzalex

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 95: Mint Condition
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2024, 03:46:21 pm »
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This would be the 24 Hour Warning for the original deadline on the post. I am willing to hold it open longer if there is any additional interest in submitting. Please let me know.
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Tiago

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 95: Mint Condition
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2024, 12:42:07 pm »
+2



This arsonist can only burn down buildings when it's Dry. And when it's not, they get so bored they burn their own things.

At the start of the game this is a decent trasher, and later it will help you empty piles.

emtzalex

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 95: Mint Condition
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2024, 09:26:52 am »
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24 Hour Warning

I was hoping to wait for more entries, but I don't want to hold the contest open forever. If you do want to submit, do so by tomorrow at this time.
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infangthief

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 95: Mint Condition
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2024, 03:32:19 am »
+1

Let's try a split pile:



Quote
Monsoon
$4 Action - Conditional

If it is Rainy, +3 Cards. Otherwise gain a card costing up to $4.
If this made you shuffle (at least one card) flip Rainy/Dry.
Quote
Forecaster
$2 Action - Conditional

+2 Actions
You may flip Rainy/Dry
This turn, when you play a Monsoon you may first discard a card for +1 Action.

A split pile with 5 copies of Monsoon on top of 5 copies of Forecaster.

Previous versions:
« Last Edit: July 02, 2024, 04:20:33 am by infangthief »
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emtzalex

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 95: Mint Condition
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2024, 11:41:47 am »
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Contest Closed

I will try to have the judging out later today/tonight (local time).
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infangthief

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 95: Mint Condition
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2024, 03:03:55 am »
+1

Hi emtzalex, prod, I hope everything's ok?
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emtzalex

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 95: Mint Condition
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2024, 12:33:39 pm »
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Sorry for the delay. I was away from my computer for the extended holiday weekend here in the United States. I'm close to getting the judging out on these.
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emtzalex

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 95: Mint Condition
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2024, 04:29:36 pm »
+2



Fan Card Mechanics Week 95: Mint Condition



Sorry this took so long. I was away from my computer for the July 4 holiday here in the states, and when I got back I got somewhat buried in work. I still really like this mechanic, and appreciate those who submitted entries.





Muckraker • $5 • Action - Reaction - Conditional
Flip Rainy/Dry.
If it is Rainy, +4 Cards;
otherwise reveal your Deck's top five cards. Trash up to two of them. Return the rest.
-
If another player gains a Victory card, you may reveal this to flip Rainy/Dry.


Muckraker by BryGuy

Muckraker is a terminal Action which alternates between Sentinel and Hunting Ground. These are obviously very different power levels, as reflected by their price (although HG has a bonus). It also has a reaction which lets a player flip its operative condition when an opponent buys a victory card. I like the concept of a Reaction as a secondary means for flipping a Condition, and I think that was a really creative use of the mechanic (except for the issue I mention below).

One potential risk with terminal Conditional cards is that, in a 2-player game, you end up with a situation where one player gets to keep playing the "strong" version, while the other player ends up repeatedly playing the weak version. After this happens a few times, the "lucky" player has a built in advantage, and can even forego playing a copy of the card while waiting for the other player to flip the condition back to them. And even if that player also forgoes playing the card, the lucky player has a baked in advantage (since early benefits in Dominion tend to snowball), and therefore is in a better position to not use the card.

This risk is at least somewhat mitigated by the fact that, early in the game, the difference between the two cards' power is less significant (since thinning is most effective early, and +4 Cards matters less when you're mostly drawing Coppers). Still, I think most players would take HG over Sentinel, even in the earliest part of the game. In the late game, the Reaction helps with that problem in a different way. If someone uses the strong/HG version to buy a Province, their opponent can use the Reaction to get HG as well. But even that is far from certain, as (again, especially late in the game), it might be in that player's next hand.

Additionally, there is an issue with the Reaction. As I understand the Reaction rules, while players generally react to an occurrence in turn order (starting with the current player), if any player uses a Reaction, each other player then gets the chance to react as well. This can create a problem in multiplayer games: player A gains a Province, and both B (going next) and C (going after B) both have a Muckraker in hand. B wants it to be Dry, so their Muckraker will give +4 cards. But C wants it to be Rainy, so that after B plays that Muckraker, it will be Dry for C's turn. Thus, they would go back and forth, both revealing their Muckraker to flip Rainy/Dry, and nether player would have any incentive to stop. You probably need to limit the reaction (for example, to only trigger when the player to your right gains a Victory card).
 
Definitely a good effort with some real potential.







Arsonist
$3 - Action
+$2
If it's Rainy, trash a card from your hand. Otherwise, trash a card from the Supply.

In games using this, when a Supply pile empties, flip Rainy/Dry.





Arsonist by Tiago

Arsonist is a terminal Silver for $3 that flips between being a regular mandatory trasher (trashing a card from your hand), and an unrestricted Lurker/Salt the Earth (trashing a card from the Supply). Rather than flipping the condition on-play, the it happens whenever a Supply pile empties.

Thematically, the use of the Condition is a lot of fun. However, I think in a lot of games, the first pile to empty is the Province pile (ending the game). Additionally, one common way for a Supply pile to empty is when there is a Curser (and the Curse pile runs out), which is arguably the worst time for your trasher to stop trashing. You can use the Supply trasher to flip it back, but that would likely take most of the game (if you ever get there). Alternatively, in a game with another Kingdom card that uses Rainy/Dry, the Condition might get flipped repeatedly, and on play your Arsonist has arbitrary swings in its power level.

If it just serves as a terminal Silver mandatory trasher, I think it is on the strong side, but probably not busted. The most obvious comp (to me) is Moneylender, which gives you more $ when you trash a Copper, but cannot trash Estates or Curses (and, if you trash one of those and play the Copper you would have trashed with Moneylender, you get the same total $). I think this makes it a bit stronger than Moneylender, yet it costs less (it's not a direct comparison, as Moneylender doesn't sometimes become inactive).

If you do get the Supply trasher, I think it will generally be of limited use, but occasionally be very potent. If you can build a strong engine with lots of +Actions (with its efficiency helped by Arsonist's earlier trashing), you can potentially get into a situation where (presuming each player has bought 2 Province) you play 3 Arsonists, trashing 3 of the 4 remaining Provinces, and buy the last one to swoop in and win the game. This seems a little busted, and not that remote a possibility.

Still, I actually really like this card. I think it fits in most decks as just a trasher, and would get me excited about how I could abuse it (even though I probably never get to because setting up the engine I never even out the Province count).







Quote
Monsoon
$4 Action - Conditional

If it is Rainy, +3 Cards. Otherwise gain a card costing up to $4.
If this made you shuffle (at least one card) flip Rainy/Dry.
Quote
Forecaster
$2 Action - Conditional

+2 Actions
You may flip Rainy/Dry
This turn, when you play a Monsoon you may first discard a card for +1 Action.
A split pile with 5 copies of Monsoon on top of 5 copies of Forecaster.





Monsoon and Forecaster by infangthief

This is a split pile. On top, Monsoon flips between a Smithy and Workshop (but only flips if you cause a shuffle). Below, Forecaster is a Necropolis that optionally flips Rainy/Dry, and allows you to make Monsoon non-terminal by discarding a card before you play it. On their face, both of these cards are pretty weak. Monsoon at $4 fluctuates between a $4 card and a $3 card. It also potentially changes in an unpredictable way. While Forecaster mainly serves as a support card to flip the condition, it still feels weak at $2.

I have really struggled with judging this one. Conceptually, I like the idea of a Conditional split pile. It opens up some interesting possibilities of, for example, having 1 card that flips the condition and another card(s) that reacts to the flip. The most obvious way to make that work would be to have the cheaper, top card do the flipping, and the other cards react.

On one hand, this pile tells kind of a fun, interesting story. Initially, you try to tap the force of the Monsoon's power for the stronger effect. Eventually, someone goes to far, weakening the card (but the gainer can potentially help you spam the 1/2 pile). Once you get a Forecaster, you have better control over the weather, allowing you a lot more flexibility to use complementary Engine pieces (and to potentially convert the Monsoons into gainers if you draw your deck).

On the other hand, I'm not sure this ultimately works out that way. Given the fact that Monsoon will eventually convert to a Workshop, unless you have a deck that you want to have either card in, I'm not sure you take the risk of a card that your opponent can render less useful (while doing the same to themselves, unless they want the gainer). I think a lot of the time they get left on the table.

I think this is by far the best underlying idea, but I think the execution is not quite there.
 
One other thing. The phrase "If this made you shuffle" creates some ambiguity. Emissary, where the wording comes from, only ever gives +3 Cards, so whether or not that causes a shuffle is straightforward (with the clarification that shuffling 0 cards isn't shuffling). But the fact that it comes after the gainer ability suggests that the phrase applies to (at least) that as well. While gaining a card can't directly trigger a shuffle, there are a variety of ways it can do so indirectly: think Footpad, Innovation, Sheepdog, and Trail. It's not clear if some, all, or none of those would trigger flipping Rain/Dry, so I think you need some clarification (maybe just in an FAQ).


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emtzalex

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 95: Mint Condition
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2024, 04:36:05 pm »
+2


Fan Card Mechanic Contest #95: Mint Condition


The Results

Thanks to everyone who participated. Here are the results:

Winner: Arsonist by by Tiago

Runner Up: Monsoon and Forecaster by infangthief

Honorable Mention: Muckraker by by BryGuy
« Last Edit: July 14, 2024, 12:21:21 pm by emtzalex »
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emtzalex

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 95: Mint Condition
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2024, 04:39:43 pm »
+3

This was definitely one of the harder ones for me to judge, not just in giving the feedback, but in picking the winner. Tiago succeeded in appealing to my love for engines and tricks/mega turns. But both infangthief and BryGuy had really interesting underlying concepts that I like a lot, and needed to recognize.
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Tiago

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 95: Mint Condition
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2024, 04:55:22 pm »
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Thanks for the win! Conditionals definitely have a lot of design space, but also seem to easily lead to cards with too many concepts smashed together.

I also think it's a good idea to give each Conditional card a different condition as that prevents them from interacting in an unexpected way. (Although obviously it's easier IRL with only one.)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2024, 04:57:33 pm by Tiago »
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infangthief

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 95: Mint Condition
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2024, 05:55:22 pm »
+1

Well done Tiago, nice thorough judging emtzalex.

Using conditionals seem to require at least 3 things to be described (the flip trigger and an effect for each side), which I think made it a bit tricky getting it all onto 1 card.

I wonder if there is a way of ensuring that multiple cards in the kingdom all interact with the same Condition. Then they don't all need to describe all 3 things. A split pile is the obvious way to do it, but there might be other ways, like "if pile A is in the kingdom then add in piles B and C also".
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emtzalex

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 95: Mint Condition
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2024, 12:11:09 pm »
+1

Well done Tiago, nice thorough judging emtzalex.

Using conditionals seem to require at least 3 things to be described (the flip trigger and an effect for each side), which I think made it a bit tricky getting it all onto 1 card.

I wonder if there is a way of ensuring that multiple cards in the kingdom all interact with the same Condition. Then they don't all need to describe all 3 things. A split pile is the obvious way to do it, but there might be other ways, like "if pile A is in the kingdom then add in piles B and C also".

This was a mechanic from Week 29, Pair Cards.
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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 95: Mint Condition
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2024, 04:20:19 am »
+2

Here's an improvement on Monsoon/Forecaster in light of the review comments.

Firstly, I've changed the wording on Monsoon, to make it clearer that it cannot trigger a flip from Dry to Rainy. The "if this made you shuffle" phrase works exactly the same as for Emissary.
Secondly, I've made Forecaster into a much stronger card; pushing its effects to next turn makes its Monsoons -> Stables+ conversion much more reliable. Forecasting for "next turn" is also nice thematically. And as a terminal Gold, it can probably cost $4, which makes it a nice target for Dry Monsoons.

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