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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contest #215: Getting Engaged  (Read 2354 times)

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silverspawn

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #215: Getting Engaged
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2024, 04:03:19 am »
+1

Cool idea but way too strong. Gaining a horse is +1 Card value; playing a card as a way is about +2 Cards value (probably more since you have choice?). And then you have +1 Action. So this is probably stronger than +1 Card, +3 Actions. Just cutting the +1 Action might make it okay.

A Way may be worth about +2 Cards on a terminal. But when added to a card that already gives +1 Action like this creation, +2 Cards is one of the very best Ways. So, this line of reasoning for why the card is overpowered does not seem correct.

Mh, true. Maybe it's fine as is then?

Actually now I'm sort of curious, let me go through the list of all ways. I'd say

S tier (busted): Mouse, Otter, Squirrel, Turtle
A tier (very strong): Goat, Horse, Pig,

and then the rest ranges from meh (Monkey) to totally useless (Rat)

The probability to get an S-tier card is almost exactly 50%, and the probability to get at least an S or A tier is almost exactly 75%. So I think I'm back on this being too strong. Don't underestimate the value of switching, either; there are various ways that didn't make it in A tier like Mole that are situationally extremely strong.  I still think I like just cutting the +Action best. If you can fix something by removing complexity, why do something else? If you want to, you could make it cost 5$ after cutting the +Action.

Quote
How would the card be if it cost 5 and you HAD to switch ways?

too strong and even swingier; the penalty of having to switch totally depends on the set of ways. I don't think that's the way to nerf them. (And btw "Horse" and I think also "Way" should both be uppercase.)

Edit: That said, in a meaningful fraction games with this card, after the Ways are revealed the card is going to be overpowered. For example, you're very likely to buy multiples of this card in the presence of Way of the Otter (the +2 Cards Way). That doesn't make for the most interesting gameplay, even if the card is not consistently essential.

That's not actually unusual for official cards though; plenty of cards are above the general powerlevel bar on specific boards. I think that's fine.

Anyway I like the design of the card a lot aside from the powerlevel, it sounds super fun.

segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #215: Getting Engage
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2024, 01:13:31 pm »
0

Captain kinda disagree with the notion that a $6 Duration „+1 Action, at the start of your next turn, +2 Cards, +1 Action“ (Horse Trainer + Turtle) is crazy.  Captain on any cantrip is superior to the above and you are kinda sad when Pearl Diver is the best to pair with Captain.
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JW

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #215: Getting Engaged
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2024, 02:05:39 pm »
+1

Edit: That said, in a meaningful fraction games with this card, after the Ways are revealed the card is going to be overpowered. For example, you're very likely to buy multiples of this card in the presence of Way of the Otter (the +2 Cards Way). That doesn't make for the most interesting gameplay, even if the card is not consistently essential.

That's not actually unusual for official cards though; plenty of cards are above the general powerlevel bar on specific boards. I think that's fine.

Sure, but with most cards you have to look at the rest of the board to have a good sense of its power level, not just the card's own setup. If a (hypothetical very bad idea) added Boon said "+2 Cards, +1 Action, -1 Buy," having Druid set that Boon aside would turn Druid into a $2 Laboratory in 3/13 of Druid games.
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StrangerSon712

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #215: Getting Engage
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2024, 04:56:55 pm »
+1

Captain kinda disagree with the notion that a $6 Duration „+1 Action, at the start of your next turn, +2 Cards, +1 Action“ (Horse Trainer + Turtle) is crazy.  Captain on any cantrip is superior to the above and you are kinda sad when Pearl Diver is the best to pair with Captain.
Horse Trainer doesn't have the duration penalty; you're comparing Highwayman to Haunted Woods. And Captain is currently rated as the 26th best card, so anything comparing to that would ideally be tuned down a little bit.
I'd also like to add that Owl is A tier. Less easy to use than Otter, but still really strong.
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #215: Getting Engage
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2024, 02:09:49 am »
0

Captain kinda disagree with the notion that a $6 Duration „+1 Action, at the start of your next turn, +2 Cards, +1 Action“ (Horse Trainer + Turtle) is crazy.  Captain on any cantrip is superior to the above and you are kinda sad when Pearl Diver is the best to pair with Captain.
Horse Trainer doesn't have the duration penalty; you're comparing Highwayman to Haunted Woods. And Captain is currently rated as the 26th best card, so anything comparing to that would ideally be tuned down a little bit.
I'd also like to add that Owl is A tier. Less easy to use than Otter, but still really strong.
Nah. As I said, Captain with Pearl Diver is super bad. Captain with something like Ironmonger is not broken and the advantage of Ironmonger easily compensates for the Duration.

Let us take another pick from the supposed list of broken Ways, Goat. Non terminally trash now, gain a Horse is fairly weak. Probably a weakish $4 and definitely far below the power level of $5s trashers like Junk Dealer and Upgrade. And we talk about a $6 …. So nah, nothing broken here either.

Horse Trainer is a weak $5.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2024, 02:15:14 am by segura »
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StrangerSon712

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #215: Getting Engaged
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2024, 03:58:29 pm »
+1

Captain on Pear Diver is only bad because of the Duration penalty, and because you're comparing it to Captain on some better card. Start of turn is the best time to draw, and an extra Action at start of turn is really good for reliability if you have terminal draw. Horse Trainer + Turtle is definitely a card you could just buy up a ton of. It's like a much more consistent version of Lost City for $6, which we can compare to Border Village gaining a lab. Which isn't crazy, but that's since it isn't insanely consistent like this is.

My policy (which you or fika may disagree with) is that fan cards should be weaker than the top tier, and stronger than the bottom tier. Captain is top tier, so Horse Trainer (Turtle) should be considered top tier as well. Of course Horse Trainer overall may not be; I still need to check all of the Ways.
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #215: Getting Engaged
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2024, 04:11:25 pm »
0

It is extremely simple. All the Ways that don’t draw suck. So 5 out of 20 are OK and the rest is between bad (Monkey or Mule being delayed Market/Bazaar) and totally bad (e.g. Ox being a delayed Double Village, Worm being semi dead, Rat being totally dead, Butterfly making the card a non-terminal Workshop and so on).
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StrangerSon712

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #215: Getting Engaged
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2024, 04:53:29 pm »
+1

What Horse Trainer really wants is to be terminal. Trade the Action for a +Buy and make it $5. Pig is strong there, but not the craziest thing ever.
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #215: Getting Engaged
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2024, 06:17:45 pm »
0

There is nothing crazy about a Market Square that gains a Horse. A Way with a Horse and a Buy is no $5.
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StrangerSon712

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #215: Getting Engaged
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2024, 06:45:16 pm »
+1

It's basically a Lab with a +Buy. I'd say 2/5 ways are ok $5s when you add a card and a Buy. Goat is sad, Butterfly is sad, Frog is sad, Rat is dead, Camel is sad, Monkey is sad, Ox is sad, Seal is sad, Sheep is sad, Chameleon is sad, Mole is sad, and Worm is sad. Horse, Mule, Otter, Owl, Pig, Squirrel, Turtle, and Mouse are reasonable $5s. And the thing to remember is you get a choice out of 3, so even if all the choices are so-so this could be worth it. And many boards this will fill a role not present, particularly when it's the only +Buy, so it will be fine even without being super crazy.
Edit: And you get the value from giving yourself access to whatever Way, or denying it to your opponent.

« Last Edit: April 06, 2024, 06:48:00 pm by StrangerSon712 »
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silverspawn

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #215: Getting Engaged
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2024, 07:26:15 pm »
0

Goat is sad

Listing Goat in A tier was wrong but it's definitely not sad. non-terminally +1 Card, +1 Action, trash a card (which is basically what this is) is quite strong. If Rats didn't give you another rats people would be all over it. And turning into a different card later is a premium upgrade for a trasher.

Otherwise I agree with basically all of your posts on this topic. It think we disagree just a little in that I estimate Horse Trainer's power to be a little higher than you (I think the +buy would be pushing it), I think because I suspect the variety adds a lot.

segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #215: Getting Engaged
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2024, 08:32:35 pm »
0

It's basically a Lab with a +Buy. I'd say 2/5 ways are ok $5s when you add a card and a Buy. Goat is sad, Butterfly is sad, Frog is sad, Rat is dead, Camel is sad, Monkey is sad, Ox is sad, Seal is sad, Sheep is sad, Chameleon is sad, Mole is sad, and Worm is sad. Horse, Mule, Otter, Owl, Pig, Squirrel, Turtle, and Mouse are reasonable $5s. And the thing to remember is you get a choice out of 3, so even if all the choices are so-so this could be worth it. And many boards this will fill a role not present, particularly when it's the only +Buy, so it will be fine even without being super crazy.
Edit: And you get the value from giving yourself access to whatever Way, or denying it to your opponent.
Nah. Squirrel sucks with handsize Attacks, Mule is a delayed Market (a weak $5 to being with so a delayed version can hardly be OK) and Otter is worse than a Smithy with a Buy like Barge or whatever.

No $5 by a long shot which is hardly surprising when the actually posted card would be weak at $5.
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #215: Getting Engaged
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2024, 08:37:38 pm »
0

Goat is sad

Listing Goat in A tier was wrong but it's definitely not sad. non-terminally +1 Card, +1 Action, trash a card (which is basically what this is) is quite strong. If Rats didn't give you another rats people would be all over it. And turning into a different card later is a premium upgrade for a trasher.
You obviously never played with Goatherd or Hideout which are both stronger than +1 Action, trash a card, gain a Horse. There is a huge difference between drawing now and thus having a larger trashing choice and getting a Horse and thus having a smaller trashing choice.

And we talk about a $6 …
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StrangerSon712

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #215: Getting Engaged
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2024, 10:19:48 pm »
+1

It's basically a Lab with a +Buy. I'd say 2/5 ways are ok $5s when you add a card and a Buy. Goat is sad, Butterfly is sad, Frog is sad, Rat is dead, Camel is sad, Monkey is sad, Ox is sad, Seal is sad, Sheep is sad, Chameleon is sad, Mole is sad, and Worm is sad. Horse, Mule, Otter, Owl, Pig, Squirrel, Turtle, and Mouse are reasonable $5s. And the thing to remember is you get a choice out of 3, so even if all the choices are so-so this could be worth it. And many boards this will fill a role not present, particularly when it's the only +Buy, so it will be fine even without being super crazy.
Edit: And you get the value from giving yourself access to whatever Way, or denying it to your opponent.
Nah. Squirrel sucks with handsize Attacks, Mule is a delayed Market (a weak $5 to being with so a delayed version can hardly be OK) and Otter is worse than a Smithy with a Buy like Barge or whatever.

No $5 by a long shot which is hardly surprising when the actually posted card would be weak at $5.
Squirrel could be sad sometimes, but hardly typically. Market is a good card. Otter is somewhat worse than Barge, but man Fields Gift Druid is worse than Candlestick Maker, I sure hope you aren’t asking for a 1/3 option to be a better version of an existing card.

More importantly, you seem to be underestimating Horses. They are NOT a worse version of +1 Card. They can be saved (much easier with the Ways), don’t draw things dead, are great with thrones, are gained en masse for whatever cares about that, and work well with some TFB.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2024, 10:23:47 pm by StrangerSon712 »
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #215: Getting Engaged
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2024, 02:58:23 am »
0

I pointed out in my above post why general principles like „gain a Horse is similar in strength to +1 Card“ only gets you so far. On a non-terminal, immediate draw is much to be preferred over Horse gaining.
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Freddy10

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #215: Getting Engaged
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2024, 11:27:02 am »
+2



Antique Dealer $3
Action
+2 Cards
+1 Action
Take the Cursed Doll.
              Cursed Doll
Artifact
When another player take this,
discard down to 3 cards in hand.

This is an idea I had for a long time: using an artifact that pusishes lossing it.
Int this case, a cheap lab if you are willing to discard cards when another player plays it.
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Who trashes the trashers?

JW

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #215: Getting Engaged
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2024, 11:49:57 am »
0

Unfortunately, Antique Dealer doesn’t yield interesting choices in 2 player games. If only one player gets it, they just get Laboratories for $4 instead of $5. The choices are more interesting in games with more than two players, but they’re choices of the “who to help” variety (player A gets it. If player B or C also gets it, the one who doesn’t get it might have an advantage, while if neither gets it player A gets those sweet $4 laboratories), which I personally would prefer to have less of.
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #215: Getting Engaged
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2024, 02:56:14 pm »
0

The idea is very cool but I think it is too centralizing even in 3P.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2024, 02:57:21 pm by segura »
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czzzz

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #215: Getting Engaged
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2024, 11:33:48 pm »
0

48 hour notice
I'll post my judgment shortly after
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MochaMoko

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #215: Getting Engaged
« Reply #44 on: April 08, 2024, 12:44:47 am »
+3

Quote
Turnip Parade
④ Action
Trash this. If you did,
+2 Coffers, +2 Villagers,
and +2 VP, then each
other player gets
+1 Coffers; +1 Villager;
or +1 VP, their choice.

It's a riff on Acting Troupe. When does it benefit your opponents the least, and you the most? What bonus do you want? It's a one-shot you can't cheat on, so hopefully the choice doesn't stall the game too hard.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2024, 03:09:36 am by MochaMoko »
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fika monster

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #215: Getting Engaged
« Reply #45 on: April 08, 2024, 04:01:32 am »
0

Goat is sad

Listing Goat in A tier was wrong but it's definitely not sad. non-terminally +1 Card, +1 Action, trash a card (which is basically what this is) is quite strong. If Rats didn't give you another rats people would be all over it. And turning into a different card later is a premium upgrade for a trasher.

Otherwise I agree with basically all of your posts on this topic. It think we disagree just a little in that I estimate Horse Trainer's power to be a little higher than you (I think the +buy would be pushing it), I think because I suspect the variety adds a lot.

Im happy to see my card sparking such discussion XD

Ive been uber tired and thus havnt edited it yet, but i were planning to exit it to 4$, with no plus action. MAYBE make it gain 2 horses, playing one of them.

Might be too good for a 4$  but i think its probably the most fun if you can open with it.
6 makes it hard to alter the game early
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silverspawn

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #215: Getting Engaged
« Reply #46 on: April 08, 2024, 04:21:59 am »
+1

Well it's your card, but at $4 w/o the action it's busted. and this is a card where powerlevel is an issue since it's spammable.

silverspawn

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #215: Getting Engaged
« Reply #47 on: April 08, 2024, 05:58:04 am »
+2

RovingBear

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #215: Getting Engaged
« Reply #48 on: April 08, 2024, 06:36:27 am »
+5

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anordinaryman

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #215: Getting Engaged
« Reply #49 on: April 08, 2024, 05:36:42 pm »
+1

Edit: this is an out of date submission. I have updated it here



Quote
Royal Advisor | Action - Command | $4
You may play a non-Command Action card from the Supply twice, leaving it there. Each other player may play a copy of it from the Supply, leaving it there.

After some play testing, it turns out the old version of Royal Advisor was often very weak. There were limited cards in Kingdoms worth throne-rooming if you give your opponents the benefit to play that card, even at start of next turn. And those cards might not even collide with your Royal Advisor, so you would rather just buy those cards instead. I first added +1 Card to it, which worked a bit -- but then I realized, playing from the supply is it's own kind of +1 Card, and solves other problems.

Now Royal Advisor is guaranteed to collide with the cards you want to play, since it plays from the Supply. That is, until that Supply pile is empty.

I've also now feel comfortable allowing it to play Duration cards, since it itself is not a Duration, and the copy in play on the table can clearly track of playing Durations, for opponents "next turn."
« Last Edit: April 08, 2024, 11:56:37 pm by anordinaryman »
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