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[GendoIkari]

Not quite sure if this belongs in general, variants, or puzzles, but whatever.

A long time ago, back when only the base set existed, I played a game where we put out all 25 Kingdom Cards (we were also playing with 6 people). It wasn't a whole lot of fun, but anyway...

If you were playing Dominion where you laid out every single Kingdom card in existence, instead of just 10, what would the dominant strategy be? My guess is that you'd want to open Chapel/Quarry, then pick up as many Goons, Watchtower, and Fishing Village as you can. Likely, whoever gets the most Goons would win. What else would you try? Would cursing attacks be worth it, if Curses could be so easily drawn and trashed?


Black Market would certainly lose a lot of its value, though you could still pull off double-Tactician tricks with it.

[theory]

It'd probably boil down whether or not it could beat KC/Goons/Masq.  Perhaps the question is more interesting if you got rid of Goons or Masq?

[Robz888]

Cool puzzle!

Some Gardens rush would probably be super strong, since you have all the $2s and $3s and $4s in play. Ironworks/Gardens/Great Hall/Crossroads type thing wins super quick, I suspect.

[Axxle]

Cool puzzle!

Some Gardens rush would probably be super strong, since you have all the $2s and $3s and $4s in play. Ironworks/Gardens/Great Hall/Crossroads type thing wins super quick, I suspect.

I would think a Vineyards rush would be even stronger!

Cleanest way I can think of the kill the KC/Goons/Masq strategy is to have this be a multiplayer game.

[Brando Commando]

This makes me wonder if perhaps a Dominion variant using more than 10 kingdom cards might make an interesting game.

Even using 15 kingdom cards instead of 10 would make the possibility of divergent strategies more likely, lack of which tends to be Dominion's weakness sometimes.

[Voltgloss]

Feels to me like (1) the Vineyards rush may have difficulties against Embargo; and (2) Silk Road might be an even better fit than Gardens for the IW-GH-XRoad rush.

Fairgrounds probably isn't the winner here, but damn if it isn't an enticing prospect.

[Davio]

It would be even more fun if you would play with all cards, but just one copy of each of them, like a giant Black Market.
A lot of cards don't make sense anymore (Treasure Map), but it would be fun to see what people go for.

Would you always take Chapel? Always take Mountebank?

[WanderingWinder]

It would be even more fun if you would play with all cards, but just one copy of each of them, like a giant Black Market.
A lot of cards don't make sense anymore (Treasure Map), but it would be fun to see what people go for.

Would you always take Chapel? Always take Mountebank?

I'd take Island/Tunnel FTW - 3 piles are going to run VERY fast...

[Asklepios]

I think Ironworks-Silk Roads-Gardens would be how I'd play it.

[Robz888]

It'd probably boil down whether or not it could beat KC/Goons/Masq.  Perhaps the question is more interesting if you got rid of Goons or Masq?

I've never done the pin, so I have no idea how long it takes to set up. But it would have to be fairly quick, because Ironworks can pick off the cheap VPs (Garden and Silk Roads, but also Great Halls, Tunnels, Islands, Estates) and end on piles in, what, 17 turns? I bet it could go a couple turns faster with Crossroads.

[jonts26]

You'd better be doing IW/Silk Road much faster than 17 turns if you want to beat even a mediocre engine. It can end it by itself in maybe 13-14 turns. Also a well build Goons engine should be churning out a ton of points very quickly so I'd think a vineyards strategy is too slow.

[Voltgloss]

I wonder if something like Young Witch/Hamlet/Tunnel/Watchtower could compete with the various Ironworks rushes.  Remember, there's no "extra" Kingdom cards, so there's no Bane. 

[Tables]

I think regarding the pin, the presence of Haven and Tactician should allow it to be countered, if your opponent chose to go for it. An IW/Silk Road should be pretty strong, but is definitely vulnerable to the pin. And actually, IW/Silk Road would probably lose to an all-Province gaining strat (they can be pulled off pretty reliably in about 10-12 turns - even Lab/KC/Chapel/Bridge can do it that quick, and that's pretty basic)

[ycz6]

A pure Ironworks/Silk road rush is too susceptible to a KC/Masq pin, I think, whereas a Vineyards deck might be able to fight it off with Durations.

Something like Drunk Marine Students + Fairgrounds + lots of random engine cards could be dominant though. It's resistant to attacks, grabs points insanely fast, and can end the game quickly enough to outrace Goons. Now there's just the problem of Possession...

[Robz888]

Maybe a Bridge mega-turn strategy. Perhaps with Ironworks and Highway and some village, perhaps Native. You could mix in the King's Courts.

[jonts26]

While working on the end the game as fast as possible puzzle, I've built some quite reliable engines which can end the game on provinces very quickly. I don't want to give too much away since that's still in progress, but I'm pretty sure something built around KC/Bridge is going to be the best possible answer for this challenge.

[greatexpectations]

would the tournament prizes count in "all cards".  princess, followers, and trusty steed could all be useful.

[Thisisnotasmile]

would the tournament prizes count in "all cards".  princess, followers, and trusty steed could all be useful.

Sure they count. You've just got to line your Tounament up with a Province before you can get them.

[greatexpectations]

Sure they count. You've just got to line your Tounament up with a Province before you can get them.

well that is no fun.  a set of 10 trusty steeds costing $0 would be great.

[blueblimp]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Ambassador yet. Isn't this going to come down to who can win the Amb war, since there are so many follow-up possibilities? Though Lighthouse might cause problems for this.

Also, KC/Goons/Masq doesn't seem great since Lighthouse is available. A Vineyards rush (with Scrying Pool support?) in particular seems like it would have no problem, since it would like to stock up on Lighthouses anyway. KC/Outpost/Masquerade, on the other hand...

[DJ]

I've talked about a scenario very similar with the guy I play with often.  The variant we came up with as a thought exercise was 1 copy of every kingdom card available, normal amounts of money, Estates, Duchies, Provinces, Colonies, and Curses.  Also, the three pile rule is suspended, obviously.

There are many variables even with just 2 players, but go to 3 or 4 and it can get nutty.  You can't really count on combos because there is only one of each card.  What do you buy if you go first and have $5?  Mountebank?  Governor?  Chapel (it won't last until your next turn, likely)?

[Voltgloss]

I've talked about a scenario very similar with the guy I play with often.  The variant we came up with as a thought exercise was 1 copy of every kingdom card available, normal amounts of money, Estates, Duchies, Provinces, Colonies, and Curses.  Also, the three pile rule is suspended, obviously.

There are many variables even with just 2 players, but go to 3 or 4 and it can get nutty.  You can't really count on combos because there is only one of each card.  What do you buy if you go first and have $5?  Mountebank?  Governor?  Chapel (it won't last until your next turn, likely)?

My gut reaction is Tournament.  There are other junkers/cursers and there are other trashers, but Tournament has a truly unique effect - and without the three-pile rule, a Province-based strategy becomes more attractive.  I realize Colonies are available, but with only one copy of each kingdom card around I am skeptical a strong Colony-buying engine can quickly get off the ground.  Whereas a couple decent sifters (Warehouse, Inn, Young Witch) plus draw-to-X cards (Library, Watchtower, JoaT) feels like it can quickly get a Province to start matching with your Tournament for Prizes.  If you can pick up Tunnel en route, even better. 

Another prime contender (and a definite with $3) is Ambassador.  It's easy to win Ambassador tennis if you're the only one with a racket.

[RisingJaguar]

You'd better be doing IW/Silk Road much faster than 17 turns if you want to beat even a mediocre engine. It can end it by itself in maybe 13-14 turns. Also a well build Goons engine should be churning out a ton of points very quickly so I'd think a vineyards strategy is too slow.

I'm thinking this battle is very very close to game 9, the game that never was, in dominion strategy finals (with the sped up Goons vs. a sped up gardens set up).  That (hypothetical) game finished much sooner than 17 turns

A lot of the set ups I imagine would be three piles with Gardens/silk road or a quick Goons set up as the dominant strategies.  Although I'm guessing three piles wouldn't be THAT quick.  There would be a whole variety of options to choose from for +cards and +actions, maybe it wouldn't all come from say fishing village. 

Are there any attacks that are worth going for with Lighthouse on board?

[Young Nick]

Well two things: First off, if we are taking all of the cards out of the box, why not take ALL of the cards out of the box? I'm talking the extra set of VPs, Curses, and Treasures. This makes it significantly harder to megaturn or to rush the minimum 24 Estates. I imagine 3 piling would be the way to go with some combo of Ironworks, Gardens, Silk Roads, Great Halls, and Islands.

Also, the comment on 15 cards instead of 10 has me thinking...Might this actually be a useful exercise in building up one's ability to survey the Kingdom and determine the best strategy possible? I would love to see this as a feature in Isotropic in my dream world.

[WanderingWinder]

Also, the comment on 15 cards instead of 10 has me thinking...Might this actually be a useful exercise in building up one's ability to survey the Kingdom and determine the best strategy possible? I would love to see this as a feature in Isotropic in my dream world.

It doesn't just reduce the luck involved but actually changes the strategy 'round a lot too. Having said that, I don't really know that 10 is the optimal number for making gameplay funnest - there's some consideration to the cost of producing the actual cards.

[Diving Pikachu]

Perhaps there should be a rule that, once 10 different kingdom piles have been gained from (minus Young Witch), all other kingdom cards are out of the game. That way the 3-pile finish is still doable.

[Young Nick]

Also, the comment on 15 cards instead of 10 has me thinking...Might this actually be a useful exercise in building up one's ability to survey the Kingdom and determine the best strategy possible? I would love to see this as a feature in Isotropic in my dream world.

It doesn't just reduce the luck involved but actually changes the strategy 'round a lot too. Having said that, I don't really know that 10 is the optimal number for making gameplay funnest - there's some consideration to the cost of producing the actual cards.

I would doubt 10 to be optimal, it was just convenient in terms of being a nice round number, cost of production, and gameplay. However, considering us, the geeks of Dominion, probably don't care about how nice the number 10 is and most of us own all cards printed to date (except for some Promos - damn you Walled Village, Governor), I figure we could try IRL games with maybe 12 or 13 cards to see what number makes for the best gameplay. It certainly would make a 10 card Kingdom feel confined, but also would make it simpler and easier to analyze. I know I will try it out, for one.

[gamesou]

It'd probably boil down whether or not it could beat KC/Goons/Masq.  Perhaps the question is more interesting if you got rid of Goons or Masq?

One should consider the baby version of the pin, TR/TR/Militia/Masquerade. This is much much faster to set up that the usual pin (open Chapel/Ironworks).

[ARTjoMS]

NO strategy based purely on attack is going to work. (TR/KC/TR/KC-Militia/Goons-Masq)

NO strategy that isn't able to play strong attack counters (almost?) every turn (lighthouse, moat) won't work. (mostly mentioned 3 pile enders)

Strategy must have a huge draw. Mostly for gain card-draw card in same turn, being able to play critical cards every turn (lighthouse, outpost).

I would say quarry-fishing village is very very strong opening.
Possible further buys include: another quarry, workers village (prefer over fishing village, because of somewhat better draw and critical +1 buy), wharfs (or council room?), KC,TR (no comment), forge, outpost. That's how huge draw gets built fast. For defense vs. attacks - lighthouse.

In end phase bridge for mega turn or goons/watchtower for ''some'' VPs.
                   

[eHalcyon]

NO strategy based purely on attack is going to work. (TR/KC/TR/KC-Militia/Goons-Masq)

NO strategy that isn't able to play strong attack counters (almost?) every turn (lighthouse, moat) won't work. (mostly mentioned 3 pile enders)

Strategy must have a huge draw. Mostly for gain card-draw card in same turn, being able to play critical cards every turn (lighthouse, outpost).

I would say quarry-fishing village is very very strong opening.
Possible further buys include: another quarry, workers village (prefer over fishing village, because of somewhat better draw and critical +1 buy), wharfs (or council room?), KC,TR (no comment), forge, outpost. That's how huge draw gets built fast. For defense vs. attacks - lighthouse.

In end phase bridge for mega turn or goons/watchtower for ''some'' VPs.
                 

Adding to this, I doubt that there is a single strategy that can be considered optimal from the outset.  With all cards available, every strategy is available, including every counter to those strategies.  The winner will be the player who can think two steps ahead of the others and building to counter their strategies while avoiding being countered himself (or herself).  Good luck would also be helpful!

[bozzball]

Black Market would probably be unpopular.

[bozzball]

(apart from playing Coins in Action phase shenanigans)

[Morgrim7]

It would be even more fun if you would play with all cards, but just one copy of each of them, like a giant Black Market.
A lot of cards don't make sense anymore (Treasure Map), but it would be fun to see what people go for.

How would you play Talisman?

[GendoIkari]

It would be even more fun if you would play with all cards, but just one copy of each of them, like a giant Black Market.
A lot of cards don't make sense anymore (Treasure Map), but it would be fun to see what people go for.

How would you play Talisman?

I would assume there's not just 1 of each Treasure card; so Talisman would still be good for picking up lots of Silver.

[Avin]

Band of Misfits would be pretty strong here.

[jamuspsi]

Band of Misfits would be pretty strong here.

Especially since it can only copy things that haven't run out in the supply.  So maybe a more interesting variant would be, you start out with 5 bands of misfits and nothing else, with one of every card in the supply.  That way there's not a swingy rush on them.  Both players get to figure out how to play it, but buying a card would lock it out from the other player- but also lock yourself to only playing the one copy, and diluting your super-flexible deck.

I'd probably start with.. ironworks, ironworks (gaining bridge and throne room), fishing villiage, nomad camp, smithy (drawing bridge and throne room), throne room bridge.  With 5 money, 3 buys, 2 less cost, I'd buy king's court.

Or... (bom)Ironworks bridge
(bom) worker's villiage drawing bridge
(bom) throne room the bridge
(bom) throne room a (bom) ironworks
.....

Screw it, here's your puzzle.  Can you gain and play a king's court with something useful on the first turn of this game?

[eHalcyon]

Screw it, here's your puzzle.  Can you gain and play a king's court with something useful on the first turn of this game?

Not sure if I made any mistakes here, since I am playing with new cards and using a contentious ruling re: Procession-BoM.

Starting with 5 BoM in hand, nothing else in deck...

bom-Crossroads
bom-Procession on bom-Bridge, lowering costs by $2 and "upgrading" bom into BV, gaining a Bridge.  (Alternatively, gain another $6 you want, like Goons, or gain BV and gain something <$6 that you want other than Bridge.)
bom-Feast to gain KC

At this point you have one BoM left in hand.  In discard you have KC and card(s) gained from Procession.

BoM Wishing Well, drawing one card and guessing correctly.

If you do NOT want perfect shuffle luck, then you should not do BV->Bridge or anything else from Procession.  Just get Goons and you'll know exactly what to wish for between KC and Goons, because there will only be one card left.

But assuming that you DID get a real copy of Bridge and you managed to get both KC and Bridge in hand:

KC-Bridge

Now you have played Bridge 5 times this turn.  Have fun.

I hope I didn't make any embarassing mistakes, because I tend to do that.

[^_^_^_^]

It would be even more fun if you would play with all cards, but just one copy of each of them, like a giant Black Market.
A lot of cards don't make sense anymore (Treasure Map), but it would be fun to see what people go for.

Would you always take Chapel? Always take Mountebank?

Assuming no 3-pile rule anymore I would say 1st turn advantage. with 3-pile rule probably 3rd person advantage or in 2player still first person advantage.