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Author Topic: Voyage + Pirate  (Read 481 times)

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ehunt

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Voyage + Pirate
« on: October 08, 2023, 05:05:11 pm »
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On a voyage turn, Sarah plays three coppers and buys a silver. She reveals Pirate from her hand. Can she play it?
Argument for Yes: Pirate says she can play Pirate from her hand right now, even though she normally couldn't.
Argument for No: Voyage says she can't play more than three cards from her hand this turn.

I would have guessed that "Yes" outweighs "No" based on other rules in the game, but the online implementation and the FAQ for Voyage on the Wiki say otherwise. Is there a general rule specific to resolving two cards that enable/disable certain actions?
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majiponi

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Re: Voyage + Pirate
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2023, 07:07:46 pm »
+1

On a voyage turn, Sarah plays three coppers and buys a silver. She reveals Pirate from her hand. Can she play it?
Argument for Yes: Pirate says she can play Pirate from her hand right now, even though she normally couldn't.
Argument for No: Voyage says she can't play more than three cards from her hand this turn.

I would have guessed that "Yes" outweighs "No" based on other rules in the game, but the online implementation and the FAQ for Voyage on the Wiki say otherwise. Is there a general rule specific to resolving two cards that enable/disable certain actions?

https://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14887.msg653497#msg653497

I think the upper discussion helps to understand it.  The answer should be "No", because the card text is a permission to play Pirate directly (not you may reveal and if you did, you must play).
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Jeebus

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Re: Voyage + Pirate
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2023, 01:23:02 pm »
+1

The rulebook says: "On a Voyage turn, if you Throne Room a card, both Throne Room and that card count as plays from your hand, but Throne Room replaying the card does not."
So the answer is no.

GendoIkari

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Re: Voyage + Pirate
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2023, 05:27:13 pm »
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The rulebook says: "On a Voyage turn, if you Throne Room a card, both Throne Room and that card count as plays from your hand, but Throne Room replaying the card does not."
So the answer is no.

I don't think this quite answers it, if I'm following correctly. It's not a question of if playing a card as as a result of being instructed to play a card counts towards your number of card plays, which is what the quoted rule explains. The question was if you are allowed an extra card play on top of the Voyage limit. The answer is no, because permission doesn't override "you can't", but that rulebook quote doesn't say that.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Voyage + Pirate
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2023, 05:29:23 pm »
+1

On a voyage turn, Sarah plays three coppers and buys a silver. She reveals Pirate from her hand. Can she play it?
Argument for Yes: Pirate says she can play Pirate from her hand right now, even though she normally couldn't.
Argument for No: Voyage says she can't play more than three cards from her hand this turn.

I would have guessed that "Yes" outweighs "No" based on other rules in the game, but the online implementation and the FAQ for Voyage on the Wiki say otherwise. Is there a general rule specific to resolving two cards that enable/disable certain actions?

https://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14887.msg653497#msg653497

I think the upper discussion helps to understand it.  The answer should be "No", because the card text is a permission to play Pirate directly (not you may reveal and if you did, you must play).

Even if Pirate was required ("play" instead of "you may play"), I don't think that would matter. If you are instructed to do something that you were already forbidden from doing, you don't do it.
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Jeebus

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Re: Voyage + Pirate
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2023, 02:32:21 am »
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I don't think this quite answers it, if I'm following correctly. It's not a question of if playing a card as as a result of being instructed to play a card counts towards your number of card plays, which is what the quoted rule explains. The question was if you are allowed an extra card play on top of the Voyage limit.

I don't see the difference between those two questions. Clearly, if you play Village, Smithy and Throne Room, you are not allowed an "extra" card play from Throne Room, since the card Throne Room lets you play counts towards the limit. (So you don't get to play any card from Throne Room.)

Or are you saying there is some difference between Throne Room's "you may play a card from your hand" and Pirate's "you may play this from your hand"?

GendoIkari

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Re: Voyage + Pirate
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2023, 10:57:27 am »
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Or are you saying there is some difference between Throne Room's "you may play a card from your hand" and Pirate's "you may play this from your hand"?

No, not that.

Quote
I don't see the difference between those two questions. Clearly, if you play Village, Smithy and Throne Room, you are not allowed an "extra" card play from Throne Room, since the card Throne Room lets you play counts towards the limit. (So you don't get to play any card from Throne Room.)

There's a reasonable rules set where an extra card play like this still uses up a card play, but also allows you to exceed the limit if you are at the limit already. I'm reminded of a rule in Tzolk'in, with a power that allows you to take corn even if the corn harvest tiles are gone. You still take a harvest tile if there is one, so the rule isn't "taking corn doesn't cause you to take a harvest tile".

Same here, the rules could have been that playing a card with Throne Room or Pirate uses up one of your limited plays if you have any left, but also gives you permission to go over that limit.
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Jeebus

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Re: Voyage + Pirate
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2023, 12:24:15 pm »
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You would need a special rule for that, as an exception. Otherwise it contradicts the rule I quoted, I would say. It says that you can play no more than 3 cards from your hand. It says that cards "played by" a card are included. I don't see how it could be plainer. You can no more exceed the limit with a card "played by" a card than you can with a card you play from your hand normally, since they are both counted as cards played from your hand for Voyage.

GendoIkari

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Re: Voyage + Pirate
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2023, 01:13:33 pm »
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I generally agree, and I think it falls under the "rules tell you what you can do, they don't list everything you can't do". I read the OP as basically asking if there was such a special rule, and the answer is no.
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