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Defeating BM in 4p

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AHoppy:
So I play Dominion IRL mostly (at least, I prefer IRL) and when I do i usually play with 3-5 people.  My one friend that we often play with only ever plays a BM or a BM+X with the X being a +draw card.  We keep telling him that this isn't always the best strategy (and certainly not the most fun) but he actually wins the majority of the time.  Out of the 14 games I've played with him, he has earned 38 more points than me (yes, I record our scores and do some minor statistics on them, we play often enough).  Anyways, my suspicion is that this has a lot to do with it being a 4 player game.  The other night we had worker's village, goons, monument, laboratory, throne room in (i don't remember the rest) and so I went for a goons/lab/worker's village strategy and was able to have 2 goons megaturns (8 and 10 points off of double goons) and he still beat me by 7 points (he only lost by 1 to someone else).  Here's what I think the biggest problem was though: The other 3 players were all running the same goons strategy.  So our strategies were actually anti-synergizing with eachother because we would only ever have 3 card hands.  However, with platinum and colonies in, the BM player was able to get a good amount of money each turn, even with only 3 cards.  So I think if we were playing 2 player i could have destroyed him.  Another example:  We just finished a game with markets, grand markets and militias.  Because the 3 of us were all going for grand markets and markets, we had a (mostly) even split between them, whereas in 2p I would get all/most of the GMs and would have been able to again destroy the BM player.  What does anyone else think?  Is BM or BM+X significantly more powerful in multiplayer than 2 player because money doesn't run out but the actions do?  Does it require a  much faster deck to defeat BM+X in 3 player games?

jonts26:
I don't think BM+X changes power in multiplayer for the most part (there are cards which are better/worse with differing numbers of players). I think depending on the board, BM might have a slight advantage if the engine components are in short supply and there are a lot of players. Though I think the real problem is this: BMU +X, played poorly, still does pretty well. Engines played poorly can be really bad. I think it's very worthwhile to experiment with engine building when you can, but until you get a lot better at it, it's likely BMX is going to win.

As to the specific goons game you mentioned, BM should get crushed here, because a good goons engine doesn't even want provinces. The BM player buying provinces will stall and flounder while you build and build. You say you got two megaturns, but 8-10 goons points is not even close to a megaturn. You need to be looking to get 3-4 Goons in play drawing with throne rooms and labs. With workers villages you can be shooting for 40 point turns, depending on how many goons you can get.

As for the grand market game, GM is often a trap card. Likely, some sort of big money strategy was the way to go.

Davio:
What you have to realize about BM decks is that they're pretty sturdy. They're like Diesels, trudging along grabbing whatever they can afford and slowly but surely harking in those VP cards.

A 3 player BM-game will end in ~21 turns. 3 players playing Smithy-BM will end it (with a non-optimized version) in ~17 turns.
4p games will end relatively sooner, because the number of VP cards per player goes down from 4 to 3. This may not seem like a lot, but it is.

Also there are less kingdom cards per player, which may be more critical for two reasons.

The first reason is that there are less combo possibities. If you're playing 2 player and both have a 5/5 Minion split you can often afford a Province. If you've got less than 5 Minions, it becomes a lot harder. A BM player doesn't have these kinds of problems. There will always be enough Golds and Silvers for him.

The second reason is 3 pile endings may come a lot sooner. While everyone is busy grabbing Throne Rooms, Labs and what not, they may easily clear 2 piles in no time while the BM-player is already grabbing VP cards. Once they're down the the last card of the third pile, the BM player can simply grab it to end and win the game.

This means that if you are going for a combo deck, you have to ask yourself if you can pull it off quicker than usual and with less of each component as you would like. A Hunting Party deck is less interesting with only 3.

I would say that a BM deck is - relatively - more powerful in multiplayer, not only because the game will probably end sooner, but also because you can't control multiplayer like 2 player. In 2 player, you can manage the piles (and your opponent) more easily, but in multiplayer an ignorant player (or someone who's had enough) may end it and deliberately make all of you (except the BM guy) lose.

You really have to scramble for points and grab those VP cards way sooner than in 2p, because multiplayer is basically a free for all frenzy. You have to push your luck and grab as much as you can. Duchies become interesting much sooner. In 2p you can often make a nice comeback later, in multiplayer you just can't wait that long.

WanderingWinder:
BM vs engines is almost the same 2p to 3p (3p is really slightly more BM-conducive usually, but not always), 4p is a bit more BM centered, just because the games are shorter (fewer provinces per player to get), so the engine doesn't have as long to get built up and fire.

Having said that... not sure I have loads of advice here.

AHoppy:

--- Quote from: jonts26 on April 10, 2012, 01:03:01 pm --- You say you got two megaturns, but 8-10 goons points is not even close to a megaturn. You need to be looking to get 3-4 Goons in play drawing with throne rooms and labs. With workers villages you can be shooting for 40 point turns, depending on how many goons you can get.

As for the grand market game, GM is often a trap card. Likely, some sort of big money strategy was the way to go.

--- End quote ---

The reason I could not get bigger "megaturns" is that with 3 of us going for all the same engine components, I could only get 4 labs, 4 worker's villages and by that point I could only get 2 goons.  This is my whole point: That BM seems stronger in multiplayer games because (in that case) the only other dominant strategy required competing to get all the engine components, which when you have 3 other players to compete against to get all the components you want.  So in my case, I came up short in the goons, where as another player came up short in the drawing or +buy cards.

And if GM is a trap card, when should I be buying it?


--- Quote from: Davio on April 10, 2012, 01:09:05 pm ---The second reason is 3 pile endings may come a lot sooner. While everyone isbusy grabbing Throne Rooms, Labs and what not, they may easily clear 2 piles in no time while the BM-player is already grabbing VP cards. Once they're down the the last card of the third pile, the BM player can simply grab it to end and win the game.

--- End quote ---

This was another big concern in the game, nobody wanted to run down the worker's village/labs/goons too low just for the BM guy to just end it.  we have definitely played games where everyone goes for the same engine components and then we don't realize how close the game is to being over and then someone buys a duchy and the last pile and wins...  That's why sometimes the most interesting sets may not be as fun in multiplayer since it'll be over really fast.

All that said, I still really like playing multiplayer more than 2 player in person, I just need to figure out how to change my strategy to account for it after playing on Isotropic so much...

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