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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contest #183: I'll Have The Vanilla Please  (Read 2772 times)

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faust

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #183: I'll Have The Vanilla Please
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2023, 06:17:26 am »
+4


Quote
Gambling House - $3
Action

+2 Actions
You may choose either or both: +1 Card, +$1; or +2 Cards, +1 Buy.
If you drew any cards, reveal your hand and discard the duplicates.

Sort of an inverse Menagerie. The payoff can be immense, but how much will you push your luck?
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silverspawn

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #183: I'll Have The Vanilla Please
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2023, 04:11:24 pm »
+3

majiponi

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #183: I'll Have The Vanilla Please
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2023, 09:08:09 pm »
+2


Quote
Gambling House - $3
Action

+2 Actions
You may choose either or both: +1 Card, +$1; or +2 Cards, +1 Buy.
If you drew any cards, reveal your hand and discard the duplicates.

Sort of an inverse Menagerie. The payoff can be immense, but how much will you push your luck?
When I have 4 Coppers in hand, do I discard 3, or 4?
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majiponi

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #183: I'll Have The Vanilla Please
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2023, 09:11:33 pm »
0

My submission:

Quote
Young Knight • $3) • Action - Knight
Choose one: +2 Cards; or +2 Actions; or +2 Buys; or +$2.

(This is not in the Supply.)


Quote
Chivalrous • Trait
When you gain a Chivalrous card, gain a Young Knight. After you play a Chivalrous card, play any number of Young Knights from your hand.


My submission is Young Knight, a non-Supply card that lets the player get +2 of any vanilla bonus, and Chivalrous, a Trait that interacts with YK. YK is a fairly weak card on its own. Although it offers all 4 vanilla bonuses, you only get +2 per card, giving effects like Moat and Necropolis when just played from your hand. However, designs using it also provide the opportunity for a player to play a chain of them, making them must stronger. There are 20 YKs in their pile.

Here, the Trait Chivalrous both allows you to gain YK (when you gain the card from the pile) and to play them (when you play it).

Sir Destry trashed a Young Knight.  Do I trash Sir Destry?
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LTaco

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #183: I'll Have The Vanilla Please
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2023, 01:21:47 pm »
+1



One and a half Pawns.

Edit: Some compelling arguments were made. Vagabond now costs $4.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2023, 06:20:14 pm by LTaco »
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #183: I'll Have The Vanilla Please
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2023, 01:55:26 pm »
0

Looks too good. If you play them consistently they are half of Lab + Village which is obviously too good at $3. And this just looks at the cantrip and ignores the extra options and flexibility.
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LTaco

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #183: I'll Have The Vanilla Please
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2023, 05:08:32 pm »
0

Looks too good. If you play them consistently they are half of Lab + Village which is obviously too good at $3. And this just looks at the cantrip and ignores the extra options and flexibility.

I disagree. The pure Lost City effect here costs $6 and 2 buys, which I think is a reasonable price. In this case, since you need to wait to draw the second card to get the Lost City effect, you expect to get that later in your turn which means decreased reliability compared to OG Lost City. And the other combinations arenīt that strong either, they definitely donīt warrant costing $4.
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faust

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #183: I'll Have The Vanilla Please
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2023, 06:36:01 pm »
+3


Quote
Gambling House - $3
Action

+2 Actions
You may choose either or both: +1 Card, +$1; or +2 Cards, +1 Buy.
If you drew any cards, reveal your hand and discard the duplicates.

Sort of an inverse Menagerie. The payoff can be immense, but how much will you push your luck?
When I have 4 Coppers in hand, do I discard 3, or 4?
4 Coppers would be discarded.
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faust

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #183: I'll Have The Vanilla Please
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2023, 06:42:48 pm »
0

Looks too good. If you play them consistently they are half of Lab + Village which is obviously too good at $3. And this just looks at the cantrip and ignores the extra options and flexibility.

I disagree. The pure Lost City effect here costs $6 and 2 buys, which I think is a reasonable price. In this case, since you need to wait to draw the second card to get the Lost City effect, you expect to get that later in your turn which means decreased reliability compared to OG Lost City. And the other combinations arenīt that strong either, they definitely donīt warrant costing $4.
But Lab + Village is $8 and 2 Buys.

Also, this doesn't interact too well with the Journey token cards.
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majiponi

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #183: I'll Have The Vanilla Please
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2023, 09:59:58 pm »
+1

Looks too good. If you play them consistently they are half of Lab + Village which is obviously too good at $3. And this just looks at the cantrip and ignores the extra options and flexibility.

I disagree. The pure Lost City effect here costs $6 and 2 buys, which I think is a reasonable price. In this case, since you need to wait to draw the second card to get the Lost City effect, you expect to get that later in your turn which means decreased reliability compared to OG Lost City. And the other combinations arenīt that strong either, they definitely donīt warrant costing $4.
But Lab + Village is $8 and 2 Buys.

Also, this doesn't interact too well with the Journey token cards.

I will pay $4 for it when Giant or Ranger is in Supply.  Flipping without spending an Action or a card in hand lets me get +$4 or +5 cards.  Enough.
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #183: I'll Have The Vanilla Please
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2023, 01:59:30 am »
+2

Looks too good. If you play them consistently they are half of Lab + Village which is obviously too good at $3. And this just looks at the cantrip and ignores the extra options and flexibility.

I disagree. The pure Lost City effect here costs $6 and 2 buys, which I think is a reasonable price. In this case, since you need to wait to draw the second card to get the Lost City effect, you expect to get that later in your turn which means decreased reliability compared to OG Lost City. And the other combinations arenīt that strong either, they definitely donīt warrant costing $4.
Think about Herald, a very strong card that is often rushed for. Think about how often those Heralds actually hit on average. Then compare this to your card which is guaranteed to „hit“ ever second time.

Another benchmark is Sea Chart. I am quite happy if they hit every second or third time.

About your notion that the other options are not that strong, yes, we only looked at what is best on average. But if one card can function as a Village, Lab and Market, i.e. as mono-engine card, that matters a lot. Many engines with terminal Buy sources can dud and if you have nonterminal sources you gotta pay a price (opportunity cost) if you overbuild on Markets or Market Squares to increase consistency.
Here you got all in one card.

So yeah, we are looking at a strong $4.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2023, 06:21:11 am by segura »
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xyz123

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #183: I'll Have The Vanilla Please
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2023, 01:34:54 pm »
+2

Sorry for the delay. 24 hour warning.
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xyz123

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #183: I'll Have The Vanilla Please
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2023, 12:13:49 pm »
+5

Contest closed.

I am going to be busy for the next couple of days so I probably won't be able to get the results up until Thursday or Friday.
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xyz123

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #183: I'll Have The Vanilla Please
« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2023, 03:43:00 pm »
+7

Apologies for the delays over the past couple of days. Here are the results.

Arowdok - Way of the Platypus
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21703.msg902395#msg902395
Can do a lot more than most ways, but a lot of that is dependent on optional discarding in a similar way to Hamlet. It does trade Hamlet's card draw and optional buy for a buy and optional money. This makes it weaker, which is correct for a way. Where this has the chance to shine is in draw to X and I do wonder if it might be too powerful for a way here. Draw to X negates the handsize reduction and can be a village, +buy or money depending on what you need at the time.

Will(ow|iam) - Dollhouse
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21703.msg902396#msg902396
A treasure that offers a choice of money or draw. There is definitely a self synergy here as a treasure that draws will typically only want to draw other treasures. This card does offer a monolythic strategy, but I would be surprised if that would ever turn out to be the optimal way to play a kingdom. I feel there will always be something else available that could enhance a Dollhouse money strategy. I like that a Dollhouse money strategy still presents some interesting decisions that should reward the more skilled player, for example, whether to play this for draw or money and when to take this over Gold. Outside of money strategies I don't see this having much use, perhaps only when you need the +buy and there are no better sources.

BryGuy - Odd Octopi
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21703.msg902398#msg902398
The first version of this was overpowered and whilst an improvement, I feel the second version maybe too. The option chosen for the next turn doesn't spend an action, so the Lab option is actually in effect a Lost City. Cards that offer choices are also more powerful due to their flexibility. It seems a bit too much for a 6 to me. I think it could have done with an on gain effect to weaken it slightly.

Segura- Cabin
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21703.msg902399#msg902399
My initial reaction to this card was that the switching around of the card type benefits from typical "iron..." cards was shoehorning this card into fitting the brief. The more I thought about it though, the more they make sense and I now think this is a well thought out card. It rewards being able to overdraw your deck, which  I notice seems to have become an accidental sub theme of this contest.

Gubump - Tailor
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21703.msg902404#msg902404
A Workshop variant that is in most cases a choice between a non-terminal Armoury and gaining to your hand (the exception being when there are cards that react to cards being gained). A nice simple card.

4est - Guest House
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21703.msg902409#msg902409
Nice theme. Guests arriving can be a bonus, and as you said, with some guests it is a bonus when they leave. Fits nicely into the Victory Card hierarchy if you don't want to trash it. The bonuses for gaining and trashing it would make this a very good candidate for trash for benefit fodder.

Augie279 - Artist
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21703.msg902425#msg902425
Another discard for benefit card. Does this allow you to choose the same option more than once? I think the wording suggests you cannot but it isn't completely clear. This would be powerful in a draw to X engine where the discard is less of a weakness, it could even be the engine's village. Outside of a draw to X engine this card would need the right support to make it work (being able to overdraw your deck being one scenario). I would suggest the formatting of this card could be clearer. You have to read it carefully to tell what the options are. I would suggest listing each option on a separate line.

Majiponi - Hourglass
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21703.msg902427#msg902427
Basically Pawn as an event that returns you to your action phase or a cheaper version of Launch where you choose two options. Putting coin on an event is interesting if slightly odd. It effectively makes this card choose 2 of +Card, +Action or +Buy for $2 or choose 1 for $1 (ignoring the scenario where you only have $1 to spend). This doesn't have the once per turn limit that Launch has. Launch's secret history states that this clause is needed. I can't think of a reason why off the top of my head, but some issue must have come up during playtesting. This card is similar enough to Launch, I would be surprised if the same issue wouldn't apply here.

LibraryAdventurer - Dinghy
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21703.msg902429#msg902429
A Pawn where the choices are split (but can be the same) over two turns in return for an additional coin on the turn it is played. I feel this would be quite weak, but is will have situations where it will be useful. The choice on the second turn could have some implications, +Card will usually be the strongest option, but you have to evaluate if you want something else before playing any other cards. An interesting case would be trying to make this your village.

D782802859 - Abandoned Fort
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21703.msg902431#msg902431
I like cards that reward a player for playing a variety of different cards. I don't think you would go out of your way to max this out but if you are playing a variety of action cards anyway this is a nice bonus and would be worth picking up. One question I do have is what happens to the extra tokens if you had 5 or more different action cards in play?

czzzz - Trapper
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21703.msg902432#msg902432
A trasher that gives a choice of 1 card and 3 money or 3 cards. Giving money and trashing makes this look like a very good option for a 5/2 opening. I like that is draws before it trashes as there will be times where you will gamble on drawing something you want to trash.

JW - Peon
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21703.msg902433#msg902433
A card for flexibility. It can draw, be a village or give money, but isn't very good at any of them. That isn't a complaint as if it was it would need to cost more than 2. A useful card that could be picked with a spare buy and give you whatever you need at the time you play it.

NoMoreFun - Churn
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21703.msg902461#msg902461
The sneaky thing about this card is that if you don't choose the discard option it increases your hand size, but if you choose to discard and then draw it only maintains it. I can see several uses for this. Turning being able to overdraw into some form of benefit. Removing unwanted cards from your hand in a draw to X engine. It would work as a way of handling junk in games without trashing.

emtzalez - Young Knight
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21703.msg902463#msg902463
I like the theme idea where a Young Knight is a more powerful Pawn. I assume it is intentional that if a Knight hits a Young Knight, the attacking Knight will be trashed. My one concern with this is whether it makes the Chivalrous card too powerful, particularly if it is a cheap card. Young Knight is very close to being an engine in one card.

Xen3k - Expanding Market
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21703.msg902465#msg902465
I think discarding 5 or more is fine. I don't see a need for the discarded card to cost 6 or more unless you want to avoid the situation where one Expanding Market can discard another. It is quite a powerful discard effect, which justifies requiring a high cost card to be discarded. I see there being times where you would want your deck to be able to overdraw so you can activate the effect. Would this card allow you to green earlier as you would want to align this with Provinces and Duchies.

Faust - Gambling House
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21703.msg902466#msg902466
I like the reverse Menagerie idea where you have to discard duplicate cards. I agree that it needs to discard all the cards that had duplicates, not just the duplicates. That would make this very powerful with Menagerie otherwise. I like this. I think there will be time when it would be worth trying to maximise the use of this card.

Silverspawn - Parade
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21703.msg902471#msg902471
A card that gives the choice to your opponents. I like this. It is a strong spammable card, but that just means your opponents get more benefit from it. It would be interesting to see how it works in games with more than 2 players as then more than 1 player would gain from each Parade. Would it lead to players having some very strong starting hands?

LTaco - Vagabond
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21703.msg902497#msg902497
I agree with the comments that this was too strong at 4. A double Pawn is almost an engine in one card. The use of the journey token keeps it in check. The aspect of the card I find most interesting is the potential for needing the journey token for a village. We haven't seen that in an official card and how that plays out could be interesting, even more so if there are other cards that use the token.

Finally - The results

Winner Guest House by 4est

Runner Ups Dollhouse by Will (ow|iam), Gambling House by Faust
Honorable Mentions Cabin by Segura, Tailor by Gubump, Parade by Silverspawn, Vagabond by LTaco

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4est

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #183: I'll Have The Vanilla Please
« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2023, 09:16:51 pm »
0

Thanks xyz123 for the win and for the detailed judging! A clever prompt and some terrific entries here.

I'll get the next contest up shortly.
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