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[Jeebus]

So I guess this should work. Village Green is Friendly. Discarding Village Green for Friendly normally doesn't let you play it, since it's your Clean-up phase.
Start of Clean-up, Friendly and Improve trigger. You have a Village Green in hand, but you first Improve a card into a Villa, returning you to your Action phase. Now you resolve Friendly even though you're in your Action phase. You play the Village Green, then gain another one.

It could be Faithful Hound, Trail, Tunnel or Weaver instead of Village Green; Cavalry instead of Villa.

[Wizard_Amul]

It doesn't work online, and I actually think that it's correct to not work. If you look at Villa, Villa says that it only returns you to your Action phase if it's your Buy phase when you gain it--if you use Improve to gain a Villa, you are in the Cleanup phase when that happens, so you do gain the Villa to hand but don't go back to your Action phase (you can't play the Villa). You still get to resolve the Friendly trigger on Village Green to gain another one, but you don't get to play the Village Green since you are still in the Cleanup phase.

[Jeebus]

It doesn't work online, and I actually think that it's correct to not work. If you look at Villa, Villa says that it only returns you to your Action phase if it's your Buy phase when you gain it--if you use Improve to gain a Villa, you are in the Cleanup phase when that happens, so you do gain the Villa to hand but don't go back to your Action phase (you can't play the Villa). You still get to resolve the Friendly trigger on Village Green to gain another one, but you don't get to play the Village Green since you are still in the Cleanup phase.

Thanks, yeah I thought I could be making some mistake. I was focused on both "start of Clean-up" and "start of Buy phase" things yesterday, and confused them.

So the idea is for start of Buy phase.

Let's say there's Arena and Woodworker's Guild. At start of Buy-phase, you have one Action card in hand. You use Woodworker's Guild to trash it and gain a Cavalry, drawing 2 cards and returning you to your Action phase. Now you can resolve Arena and discard an Action card that you drew (even though you're not in the Buy phase anymore).

This one's more tricky: Let's say there's Innovation and Woodworker's Guild, and you have a Wine Merchant on your Tavern mat. You have $1 at start of Buy-phase. You use Woodworker's Guild to gain Villa, returning you to your Action phase and ending your Buy phase. You play the Villa with Innovation, giving you +$1. Can you now discard the Wine Merchant? I guess not, since the Buy phase ended in the middle of resolving Villa, before you resolved when-gain stuff for Villa. Wine Merchant was triggered right when the Buy phase ended and you had to resolve it then.

[Wizard_Amul]

It doesn't work online, and I actually think that it's correct to not work. If you look at Villa, Villa says that it only returns you to your Action phase if it's your Buy phase when you gain it--if you use Improve to gain a Villa, you are in the Cleanup phase when that happens, so you do gain the Villa to hand but don't go back to your Action phase (you can't play the Villa). You still get to resolve the Friendly trigger on Village Green to gain another one, but you don't get to play the Village Green since you are still in the Cleanup phase.

Thanks, yeah I thought I could be making some mistake. I was focused on both "start of Clean-up" and "start of Buy phase" things yesterday, and confused them.

So the idea is for start of Buy phase.

Let's say there's Arena and Woodworker's Guild. At start of Buy-phase, you have one Action card in hand. You use Woodworker's Guild to trash it and gain a Cavalry, drawing 2 cards and returning you to your Action phase. Now you can resolve Arena and discard an Action card that you drew (even though you're not in the Buy phase anymore).

This one's more tricky: Let's say there's Innovation and Woodworker's Guild, and you have a Wine Merchant on your Tavern mat. You have $1 at start of Buy-phase. You use Woodworker's Guild to gain Villa, returning you to your Action phase and ending your Buy phase. You play the Villa with Innovation, giving you +$1. Can you now discard the Wine Merchant? I guess not, since the Buy phase ended in the middle of resolving Villa, before you resolved when-gain stuff for Villa. Wine Merchant was triggered right when the Buy phase ended and you had to resolve it then.

I would think the first one would work now--tested it online, and it does work.

The second more tricky one I wasn't sure about, but it does work online, which I think is right but not sure--see what you think. I think what is happening is that Innovation triggers on gain, and if you look at Villa's text, the gaining part happens before the return to action phase part, so when Innovation triggers and you play the Villa, you are still in the Buy phase at that moment--you can then discard the Wine Merchant before the Buy phase ends and you get returned to your action phase. That's at least what happens online--see here for what I tried (the Village Green play at the very end is me playing it normally from my hand in the action phase):

Turn 9 - Wizard_Amul
W starts their turn.
  W gets +$1. (Key)
W begins their buy phase.
  W trashes a Chapel.
  W spends 1 Favor.
  W gains a Villa.
    W plays a Villa.
      W gets +2 Actions.
      W gets +1 Buy.
      W gets +$1.
    W gets +1 Action.
W ends their buy phase.
  W discards a Wine Merchant.
W plays a Village Green.
  W draws a Treasurer.
  W gets +2 Actions.

Edit: Thinking a bit more, I think it makes sense, but I don't remember if there is an exact ruling on this. See the bolded line above--I think that's where the +1 action from Villa's below the line text is triggering. Now comes the next part of Villa to return to the Action phase--so it looks like "return to your Action phase" is being taken to mean "end the Buy phase and return to your Action phase." It is at that point that the pop up for discarding Wine Merchant came up, since I suppose that is when the end of the Buy phase is considered to be reached. If that's how it's supposed to work, then I think the online version has it right.

[Jeebus]

I would think the first one would work now--tested it online, and it does work.

The second more tricky one I wasn't sure about, but it does work online, which I think is right but not sure--see what you think. I think what is happening is that Innovation triggers on gain, and if you look at Villa's text, the gaining part happens before the return to action phase part, so when Innovation triggers and you play the Villa, you are still in the Buy phase at that moment--you can then discard the Wine Merchant before the Buy phase ends and you get returned to your action phase. That's at least what happens online--see here for what I tried (the Village Green play at the very end is me playing it normally from my hand in the action phase):

Turn 9 - Wizard_Amul
W starts their turn.
  W gets +$1. (Key)
W begins their buy phase.
  W trashes a Chapel.
  W spends 1 Favor.
  W gains a Villa.
    W plays a Villa.
      W gets +2 Actions.
      W gets +1 Buy.
      W gets +$1.
    W gets +1 Action.
W ends their buy phase.
  W discards a Wine Merchant.
W plays a Village Green.
  W draws a Treasurer.
  W gets +2 Actions.

Thanks for checking! Yeah, I forgot that you can't use Innovation on Villa after returning to your Action phase, because Villa has then put itself in your hand.

I think this would work as intended with Sheepdog and the +$1 token on the Sheepdog pile:

You have a Wine Merchant on your Tavern mat. You have $1 at start of Buy-phase. You use Woodworker's Guild to gain Villa, returning you to your Action phase and ending your Buy phase. You play Sheepdog because you gained Villa, giving +$1 from the token. Can you now discard the Wine Merchant? Probably not.

[scolapasta]

It's interesting to me that the first one works - it seems to me the trickier one. I guess the idea is that at the start of your buy phase, you can choose all the things you want to trigger, then you order them, and so they still trigger even if conditions (e.g. not being in your buy phase) are no longer met?

(the alternative being, you only choose the first thing to trigger, then do it; then you can choose the next thing to trigger, but only if the condition is still met)

I wonder if there are other cases like this.


The 2nd one seems more straightforward in that they are just both "when you gain" triggers. So you just choose to do Innovation first, before Villa, and so get the +$1 before you end your buy phase.

Wouldn't that actually be the same with Sheepdog + +$1 token? In other words, you use Woodworker's guild to gain the Villa,
then choose which on gain you do first, Villa's or Sheepdog's. If you do Sheepdog, you get the +$1, and then when you do Villa's and end your buy phase, you can still choose to discard the Wine Merchant. (if you choose Villa's first, then you would not be able to discard the Wine Merchant, since you first end your buy phase)

[Wizard_Amul]

Thanks for checking! Yeah, I forgot that you can't use Innovation on Villa after returning to your Action phase, because Villa has then put itself in your hand.

I think this would work as intended with Sheepdog and the +$1 token on the Sheepdog pile:

You have a Wine Merchant on your Tavern mat. You have $1 at start of Buy-phase. You use Woodworker's Guild to gain Villa, returning you to your Action phase and ending your Buy phase. You play Sheepdog because you gained Villa, giving +$1 from the token. Can you now discard the Wine Merchant? Probably not.

Still same as before--you can discard Wine Merchant. Again, at least online, it looks like this is because the "when gain" triggers are happening before Villa returns you to your action phase. scolapasta, I tried both with Villa first and Sheepdog first, and at least online, I can discard Wine Merchant both times. I bolded the rows where the +1 action from Villa's below the line text is kicking in.

Reacting with Villa first:
Turn 18 - Wizard_Amul
W starts their turn.
  W gets +$1. (Key)
W begins their buy phase.
  W trashes a Hunting Lodge.
  W spends 1 Favor.
  W gains a Villa.
    W puts a Villa into their hand.
    W gets +1 Action.
    W reacts with a Sheepdog.
    W plays a Sheepdog.
      W gets +1 Coin (from Teacher).
      W draws a Teacher and a Hunting Lodge.
W ends their buy phase.
  W discards a Wine Merchant.
W plays a Hunting Lodge.
  W draws a Villa.
  W gets +2 Actions.
W plays a Teacher.
  W puts a Teacher on their Tavern mat.
W begins their buy phase.
W buys and gains a Peasant.
W shuffles their deck.
W draws 2 Villas, a Sheepdog, and 2 Hunting Lodges.


Reacting with Sheepdog first:
Turn 18 - Wizard_Amul
W starts their turn.
  W gets +$1. (Key)
W begins their buy phase.
  W trashes a Hunting Lodge.
  W spends 1 Favor.
  W gains a Villa.
    W reacts with a Sheepdog.
    W plays a Sheepdog.
      W gets +1 Coin (from Teacher).
      W draws a Teacher and a Hunting Lodge.
    W puts a Villa into their hand.
    W gets +1 Action.
W ends their buy phase.
  W discards a Wine Merchant.
W plays a Teacher.
  W puts a Teacher on their Tavern mat.
W begins their buy phase.
W buys and gains a Peasant.
W shuffles their deck.
W draws 2 Villas, 2 Hunting Lodges, and a Contract.

[Jeebus]

It's interesting to me that the first one works - it seems to me the trickier one. I guess the idea is that at the start of your buy phase, you can choose all the things you want to trigger, then you order them, and so they still trigger even if conditions (e.g. not being in your buy phase) are no longer met?

(the alternative being, you only choose the first thing to trigger, then do it; then you can choose the next thing to trigger, but only if the condition is still met)

I wonder if there are other cases like this.

No it's more like, all of them trigger, then you choose which to resolve first, etc. Once something triggers, it's never removed from the "to be resolved" list.

The classic example is, gain Mandarin with Royal Seal in play, both cards trigger. You resolve Mandarin first, topdecking the Royal Seal. You can resolve Royal Seal to topdeck the Mandarin.

[Jeebus]

Thanks for checking! Yeah, I forgot that you can't use Innovation on Villa after returning to your Action phase, because Villa has then put itself in your hand.

I think this would work as intended with Sheepdog and the +$1 token on the Sheepdog pile:

You have a Wine Merchant on your Tavern mat. You have $1 at start of Buy-phase. You use Woodworker's Guild to gain Villa, returning you to your Action phase and ending your Buy phase. You play Sheepdog because you gained Villa, giving +$1 from the token. Can you now discard the Wine Merchant? Probably not.

Still same as before--you can discard Wine Merchant. Again, at least online, it looks like this is because the "when gain" triggers are happening before Villa returns you to your action phase. scolapasta, I tried both with Villa first and Sheepdog first, and at least online, I can discard Wine Merchant both times. I bolded the rows where the +1 action from Villa's below the line text is kicking in.

The second one, playing Sheepdog first, seems to be correct. But the first one seems to be wrong:

Reacting with Villa first:
Turn 18 - Wizard_Amul
W starts their turn.
  W gets +$1. (Key)
W begins their buy phase.
  W trashes a Hunting Lodge.
  W spends 1 Favor.
  W gains a Villa.
    W puts a Villa into their hand.
    W gets +1 Action.
    W reacts with a Sheepdog.
    W plays a Sheepdog.
      W gets +1 Coin (from Teacher).
      W draws a Teacher and a Hunting Lodge.
W ends their buy phase.
  W discards a Wine Merchant.

What happens when you resolve Villa's when-gain is:
1) put it into your hand
2) +1 Action
3) if it's your Buy phase return to your Action phase
I marked this in blue.

It should only be possible to react with Sheepdog before or after this, but online it happens in the middle, between (2) and (3). In other words, we should return to the Action phase (ending the Buy phase), then play Sheepdog.

But of course, this scenario is bad, because you could just choose to play the Sheepdog first!

[scolapasta]

It's interesting to me that the first one works - it seems to me the trickier one. I guess the idea is that at the start of your buy phase, you can choose all the things you want to trigger, then you order them, and so they still trigger even if conditions (e.g. not being in your buy phase) are no longer met?

(the alternative being, you only choose the first thing to trigger, then do it; then you can choose the next thing to trigger, but only if the condition is still met)

I wonder if there are other cases like this.

No it's more like, all of them trigger, then you choose which to resolve first, etc. Once something triggers, it's never removed from the "to be resolved" list.

The classic example is, gain Mandarin with Royal Seal in play, both cards trigger. You resolve Mandarin first, topdecking the Royal Seal. You can resolve Royal Seal to topdeck the Mandarin.

Oh right, yeah that makes sense. I always semantically read the "at time X, you may Y", as you choosing whether it triggers, but it's more accurate to think of it as it triggers your ability to make the choice (so the trigger happens regardless).

It should only be possible to react with Sheepdog before or after this, but online it happens in the middle, between (2) and (3). In other words, we should return to the Action phase (ending the Buy phase), then play Sheepdog.

But of course, this scenario is bad, because you could just choose to play the Sheepdog first!

Agreed, it seems like a (minor) bug. But as with everything, there are edge cases. For example, say you gained the Villa with Artificer (during your buy phase because of Capitalism), then triggering Sheepdog first would only net +1 card since you'd first draw the Villa. (i.e. if the online implementation were correct, you'd likely want to first move the Villa from the deck to your hand, then draw 2 more, before returning to your action phase).

[Jeebus]

Agreed, it seems like a (minor) bug. But as with everything, there are edge cases. For example, say you gained the Villa with Artificer (during your buy phase because of Capitalism), then triggering Sheepdog first would only net +1 card since you'd first draw the Villa. (i.e. if the online implementation were correct, you'd likely want to first move the Villa from the deck to your hand, then draw 2 more, before returning to your action phase).

Actually, you would first put Villa in your hand, then return to your Action phase, then draw 2 cards with Sheepdog. But I don't think that makes a difference.
But doesn't your scenario actually work online despite the bug?

[Jeebus]

Here's a scenario where it would make a difference.

Buy phase starts.
Play Charm (new version).
Buy and gain Villa.
Resolve Villa, ending Buy phase.
Resolve Charm, gaining Rocks.
Resolve Rocks, gaining Silver. You want to gain the Silver to your hand, not to your deck.

[scolapasta]

Agreed, it seems like a (minor) bug. But as with everything, there are edge cases. For example, say you gained the Villa with Artificer (during your buy phase because of Capitalism), then triggering Sheepdog first would only net +1 card since you'd first draw the Villa. (i.e. if the online implementation were correct, you'd likely want to first move the Villa from the deck to your hand, then draw 2 more, before returning to your action phase).

Actually, you would first put Villa in your hand, then return to your Action phase, then draw 2 cards with Sheepdog. But I don't think that makes a difference.

Yup, that's what I meant.

But doesn't your scenario actually work online despite the bug?

I think what I was saying is that there is an effective difference because of the bug. But maybe I didn't think out or spell out all of the scenario.

So let me write it out and see what happens:

Scenario 1:
Buy Phase:
Gain Villa
React with Sheepdog, draw the Villa and Card 1.
Then Villa's on gain, ending Buy Phase (and discarding the Wine Merchant because you got the $1 from sheepdog / token).

Scenario 2:
Buy Phase:
Gain Villa
Then Villa's on gain, Villa goes in hand and ending Buy phase (no discarding the Wine Merchant).
React with Sheepdog, draw Card 1 and 2.

Scenario 3 (current online):
Buy Phase:
Gain Villa
Then Villa's on gain, Villa goes in hand.
React with Sheepdog, draw Card 1 and 2.
Buy phase ends(and discarding the Wine Merchant because you got the $1 from sheepdog / token).

----

Aha, I think I forgot some aspects in my written version of the scenario, basically that your deck only contains 2 cards and that you had a wine merchant on your reserve mat.

So I think the difference here is if card 2 were something like Smithy, the online bug would allow you to draw it and play it with your Wine Merchant discarded and now part of the shuffle.