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Author Topic: Harbor Village and Inspiring  (Read 1069 times)

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Jeebus

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Harbor Village and Inspiring
« on: January 27, 2023, 08:19:10 am »
0

Oh no, more Harbor Village stuff.

From the wiki:
Normally, playing 2 consecutive Harbor Villages won't give +$. However, if your 2nd Harbor Village causes you play an Action giving +$ (e.g. the Harbor Village is Inspired), then the 2nd Harbor Village will give +$, which will cause the 1st Harbor Village to give +$1.

No source is given. I don't see how this can be correct. Inspiring says you play another card afterwards, which must be the same timing as Royal Carriage and League of Shopkeepers. None of those cause Harbor Village to give +$1. And you can of course choose in which order to resolve Inspiring, Royal Carriage and League of Shopkeepers. A Throne Room playing a Market also does not cause Harbor Village to give +$1.

AJD

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Re: Harbor Village and Inspiring
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2023, 09:21:42 am »
+1

Harbor Village also has the same timing as Inspiring, Royal Carriage, etc.—i.e., "after" you play an Action—so you can also choose in which order to resolve it and Inspiring. So I guess formally, what this ruling should say is that you may receive the +$1 from the first Harbor Village in that scenario, if you choose to order them properly. Here's how it works:

Play Harbor Village [1].
..Get +1 card and +2 Actions.
..Inspiring triggers: you may play a card you don't have a copy of in play. Decline to do so.
Play Harbor Village [2].
..Get +1 card and +2 Actions.
..Inspiring and Harbor Village [1] both trigger.
....Choose to resolve Inspiring first.
......Play Guildmaster
........Get +$3.
........Harbor Village [2] triggers.
..........Did Guildmaster give you +$? Yes it did. Therefore, Harbor Village [2] gives you +$1.
....Resolve Harbor Village [1] second.
......Did Harbor Village [2] give you +$? Yes it did. Therefore, Harbor Village [1] gives you +$1.

I guess your comment about Royal Carriage has to do with, if you play Harbor Village, Steward for+cards, call Royal Carriage, Steward for +$, then Harbor Village doesn't give you +$ for the second play of Steward? That reason you don't get the +$ there doesn't have anything to do with the timing; you're right that the timing is the same as the Inspiring scenario above. It's because what Harbor Village cares about (apparently) is whether the first act of playing an Action card after it gave you +$, not whether additional acts of playing the same card give +$.

This interpretation of Harbor Village is comparable to that of Conspirator, which says "If you’ve played 3 or more Actions", but actually means 'if you've played Actions three or more times'. This is why Throne Room / Conspirator gives you a cantrip effect from the replaying of Conspirator, even though you've only actually played two Action cards. Similarly, the "it" in Harbor Village's "if it gave you +$" doesn't actually mean 'that Action card', but rather 'that time playing the Action card'.
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Jeebus

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Re: Harbor Village and Inspiring
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2023, 09:50:17 am »
0

Harbor Village also has the same timing as Inspiring, Royal Carriage, etc.—i.e., "after" you play an Action—so you can also choose in which order to resolve it and Inspiring. So I guess formally, what this ruling should say is that you may receive the +$1 from the first Harbor Village in that scenario, if you choose to order them properly. Here's how it works:

Play Harbor Village [1].
..Get +1 card and +2 Actions.
..Inspiring triggers: you may play a card you don't have a copy of in play. Decline to do so.
Play Harbor Village [2].
..Get +1 card and +2 Actions.
..Inspiring and Harbor Village [1] both trigger.
....Choose to resolve Inspiring first.
......Play Guildmaster
........Get +$3.
........Harbor Village [2] triggers.
..........Did Guildmaster give you +$? Yes it did. Therefore, Harbor Village [2] gives you +$1.
....Resolve Harbor Village [1] second.
......Did Harbor Village [2] give you +$? Yes it did. Therefore, Harbor Village [1] gives you +$1.

I guess your comment about Royal Carriage has to do with, if you play Harbor Village, Steward for+cards, call Royal Carriage, Steward for +$, then Harbor Village doesn't give you +$ for the second play of Steward? That reason you don't get the +$ there doesn't have anything to do with the timing; you're right that the timing is the same as the Inspiring scenario above. It's because what Harbor Village cares about (apparently) is whether the first act of playing an Action card after it gave you +$, not whether additional acts of playing the same card give +$.

This interpretation of Harbor Village is comparable to that of Conspirator, which says "If you’ve played 3 or more Actions", but actually means 'if you've played Actions three or more times'. This is why Throne Room / Conspirator gives you a cantrip effect from the replaying of Conspirator, even though you've only actually played two Action cards. Similarly, the "it" in Harbor Village's "if it gave you +$" doesn't actually mean 'that Action card', but rather 'that time playing the Action card'.

I meant, the fact that they have the same timing shows that it's something that triggers after you played and completely finished resolving the played card, so it's not something that would be seen as "gotten from playing the card".

Example with Inspiring on Sycophant:

Play Harbor Village (+1 Card, +2 Actions)
Play Sycophant (+1 Action, don't discard)
..Harbor Village, Royal Carriage, League of Shopkeepers and Inspiring all trigger.
....Resolve Royal Carriage (replay Sycophant, this time discard and get +$3)
....Resolve League of Shopkeepers (get +$1)
....Resolve Inspiring (play Guildmaster and get +$3)
....Resolve Harbor Village (You didn't get +$ from playing Sycophant the first time)

Why would Inspiring be different from Royal Carriage and League of Shopkeepers here? They all trigger and are resolved after you have finished resolving Sycophant.

AJD

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Re: Harbor Village and Inspiring
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2023, 10:28:54 am »
+1

I meant, the fact that they have the same timing shows that it's something that triggers after you played and completely finished resolving the played card, so it's not something that would be seen as "gotten from playing the card".

I'm not quite sure what the "it" in this sentence refers to. If you get +$1 from Harbor Village, it's "gotten from playing" Harbor Village, not from playing the Action card after Harbor Village (even though you don't get it till after playing that next Action). Similarly, Merchant, not Silver, gives you +$1 after you play a Silver.

Quote
Example with Inspiring on Sycophant:

Play Harbor Village (+1 Card, +2 Actions)
Play Sycophant (+1 Action, don't discard)
..Harbor Village, Royal Carriage, League of Shopkeepers and Inspiring all trigger.
....Resolve Royal Carriage (replay Sycophant, this time discard and get +$3)
....Resolve League of Shopkeepers (get +$1)
....Resolve Inspiring (play Guildmaster and get +$3)
....Resolve Harbor Village (You didn't get +$ from playing Sycophant the first time)

Why would Inspiring be different from Royal Carriage and League of Shopkeepers here? They all trigger and are resolved after you have finished resolving Sycophant.

I don't see how this example is relevant? Inspiring isn't different from Royal Carriage and League of Shopkeepers here. None of them cause (the first play of) Sycophant to give you +$ and activate Harbor Village. But the question is about Inspiring Harbor Village, not Inspiring Sycophant. And it is possible for Inspiring on Harbor Village to cause the Harbor Village to give you +$, precisely because Inspiring causes you to play another Action and Harbor Village's +$ cares about whether you play another Action. Sycophant's +$ does not depend on whether you play another Action after it or not, so in your example above, Inspiring has no bearing on whether Sycophant gives you +$ (and therefore on whether the preceding Harbor Village gives you +$).
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Jeebus

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Re: Harbor Village and Inspiring
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2023, 10:56:10 am »
+1

("It" referred to Inspiring.)

Yes, I see now. I misunderstood the clarification. I thought it meant that the card after Harbor Village (whether it was a second Harbor Village or any other card) would give you +$ if Inspiring caused you to play a card that gave you +$. I didn't catch the chain reaction effect.

Jeebus

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Re: Harbor Village and Inspiring
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2023, 11:01:13 am »
+1

I guess there is nothing besides Inspiring that can cause the second Harbor Village to give +$ so that it counts for the first Harbor Village.

Jeebus

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Re: Harbor Village and Inspiring
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2023, 09:46:33 am »
+1

I think I have another way two consecutive Harbor Villages can give you +$1:

1. Play Kiln.
2. Play Harbor Village 1.
3. Before resolving Harbor Village 1, gain Harbor Village 2.
4. Play HB2 with Innovation, and resolve it.
5. Resolve HB1. (This is not "the next Action you play" for HB2, because HB1 had already been played.)
6. Play Militia. Both HB1 and HB2 give you +$1.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2023, 09:56:14 am by Jeebus »
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AJD

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Re: Harbor Village and Inspiring
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2023, 10:05:42 am »
+1

I think I have another way two consecutive Harbor Villages can give you +$1:

1. Play Kiln.
2. Play Harbor Village 1.
3. Before resolving Harbor Village 1, gain Harbor Village 2.
4. Play HB2 with Innovation, and resolve it.
5. Resolve HB1. (This is not "the next Action you play" for HB2, because HB1 had already been played.)
6. Play Militia. Both HB1 and HB2 give you +$1.

Weeeeird. You're right, of course; it's like the bizarre Conspirator interaction. But weeeeird.
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Jeebus

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Re: Harbor Village and Inspiring
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2023, 11:25:21 am »
0

Harbor Village also has the same timing as Inspiring, Royal Carriage, etc.—i.e., "after" you play an Action—so you can also choose in which order to resolve it and Inspiring. So I guess formally, what this ruling should say is that you may receive the +$1 from the first Harbor Village in that scenario, if you choose to order them properly. Here's how it works:

Play Harbor Village [1].
..Get +1 card and +2 Actions.
..Inspiring triggers: you may play a card you don't have a copy of in play. Decline to do so.
Play Harbor Village [2].
..Get +1 card and +2 Actions.
..Inspiring and Harbor Village [1] both trigger.
....Choose to resolve Inspiring first.
......Play Guildmaster
........Get +$3.
........Harbor Village [2] triggers.
..........Did Guildmaster give you +$? Yes it did. Therefore, Harbor Village [2] gives you +$1.
....Resolve Harbor Village [1] second.
......Did Harbor Village [2] give you +$? Yes it did. Therefore, Harbor Village [1] gives you +$1.

Thinking about this again. Has Donald X. confirmed that this is how it works? Because I don't think it's obvious. I would originally think that Harbor Village checks whether resolving the Action card's on-play instructions gave you +$, and in that case Harbor Village [1] would not give you +$1. We know that Ways can also "count as" what a card gives you, so "on-play instructions" can't strictly be the right term, and (since the Way ruling lacks a technical definition) we actually don't know exactly what Harbor Village looks for. But it could just as well be that it looks for things that we would do when following the on-play instructions or other things that stand in for that (in practice, only Ways), and that it does not look for things that trigger after we're done with the "resolving on-play instructions" phase of playing the card.

AJD

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Re: Harbor Village and Inspiring
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2023, 11:42:01 am »
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Harbor Village's on-play instructions do give you the +$1; they just give it to you at a time other than when you play it. This is no different from the next-turn draw being part of Caravan's on-play instructions, which is why Throne Room / Caravan gives you +2 cards on your next turn. (Harbor Village doesn't "look for things that trigger after we're done with the 'resolving on-play instructions' phase of playing the card", but only because Harbor Village usually triggers before those things happen.)
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Jeebus

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Re: Harbor Village and Inspiring
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2023, 05:12:38 pm »
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Let's put it this way: Harbor Village's +$1, just like Caravan's next-turn draw, is not something the card gives you when you play it. (When you play it, it just sets that up to happen at a later time.) How do we know Harbor Village doesn't only care about what the next played Action card gives you when you play it? Again, has Donald X. ruled on this?

Donald X.

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Re: Harbor Village and Inspiring
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2023, 06:10:26 pm »
+3

Play Harbor Village [1].
..Get +1 card and +2 Actions.
..Inspiring triggers: you may play a card you don't have a copy of in play. Decline to do so.
Play Harbor Village [2].
..Get +1 card and +2 Actions.
..Inspiring and Harbor Village [1] both trigger.
....Choose to resolve Inspiring first.
......Play Guildmaster
........Get +$3.
........Harbor Village [2] triggers.
..........Did Guildmaster give you +$? Yes it did. Therefore, Harbor Village [2] gives you +$1.
....Resolve Harbor Village [1] second.
......Did Harbor Village [2] give you +$? Yes it did. Therefore, Harbor Village [1] gives you +$1.
Looks correct.
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Jeebus

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Re: Harbor Village and Inspiring
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2023, 03:35:12 pm »
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Play Harbor Village [1].
..Get +1 card and +2 Actions.
..Inspiring triggers: you may play a card you don't have a copy of in play. Decline to do so.
Play Harbor Village [2].
..Get +1 card and +2 Actions.
..Inspiring and Harbor Village [1] both trigger.
....Choose to resolve Inspiring first.
......Play Guildmaster
........Get +$3.
........Harbor Village [2] triggers.
..........Did Guildmaster give you +$? Yes it did. Therefore, Harbor Village [2] gives you +$1.
....Resolve Harbor Village [1] second.
......Did Harbor Village [2] give you +$? Yes it did. Therefore, Harbor Village [1] gives you +$1.

Even more useless corner-cases... With Inspiring and Royal Carriage it's possible to play Harbor Village many times after each other and get the bonus from all of them by playing one card like Guildmaster in the end. Example with 2 Harbor Villages and 3 Royal Carriages.

Play HB1
Play HB2
..Call RC to replay HB2 = HB3
....Call RC to replay HB2 = HB4
......Call RC to replay HB2 = HB5
........Inspiring: play Guildmaster: +$3
..........HB5 checks Guildmaster: +$1
........HB4 checks HB5: +$1
......HB3 checks HB4: +$1
....HB2 checks HB3: +$1
..HB1 checks HB2: +$1

It would be the same with 1 Harbor Village and 4 Royal Carriages. But this doesn't work with 3 or more Harbor Villages; you need Royal Carriages. Also, it doesn't work with Flagships instead of Royal Carriages, since the Flagships would only trigger after playing Harbor Village the first time; Royal Carriages trigger after each time you play (or replay) a card.
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