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Author Topic: How lower level players view Possession  (Read 4441 times)

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Geronimoo

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How lower level players view Possession
« on: April 08, 2012, 04:11:37 pm »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201204/08/game-20120408-125337-a5dbffdc.html

I mostly ignore Alchemist on Province boards without +buy and outrace my opponents when they go for it, but this board has Possession which is very nice +buy so I go for it. My lower level opponent (lvl 9 despite 1500 games) opens the very questionable Steward/Steward, but draws quite nicely with a turn 3 Gold (how lucky!) then many more Golds and very soon Provinces. I get a little frustrated as he buys Provinces the turn after I possess him a few times and I vent that. Then I think he's going to buy the last Province for the win so I say "gg" and he takes a pretty long time, so I ask not to slow roll me:

Quote
21:37 Geronimoo: gl hf
21:44 Geronimoo: oh come on
21:45 Phule: ??
21:46 Geronimoo: gg
21:46 Geronimoo: no slow roll please
21:47 Phule: I find it peculiar that someone would feign sportsmanship, etc by saying, "gl hf" and then play Possession...hilarious...then you have the nerve to say that I am slow rolling
21:47 Phule: ridiculous
21:53 Geronimoo: gg
21:53 Phule: gg...ease up on the hypocrisy, tiger
21:53 Phule has returned to the lobby.

So funny how people view Possession as something unsportsmanlike, while all you're doing is taking an extra turn...
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rrenaud

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Re: How lower level players view Possession
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2012, 04:21:02 pm »
+4

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jonts26

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Re: How lower level players view Possession
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2012, 06:03:20 pm »
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Good article, but the large picture of Neville Chamberlain cause me to read it as if it were being written by a British man from the 1930's. Which added a certain level of humour.
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Kirian

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Re: How lower level players view Possession
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2012, 11:03:01 pm »
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That was quite the awesome article, rr.
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mnavratil

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Re: How lower level players view Possession
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2012, 12:23:51 pm »
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Yes, thank you for posting that. I am surprised I had not already come across that article before.
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Toskk

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Re: How lower level players view Possession
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2012, 01:11:01 pm »
+2

scrubs gonna scrub

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html

Eh.. the article was o.k., however I really hope the book was better-researched. The ideas presented were pretty straight-forward, however the use of arbitrary numbers (e.g. percentage of players who don't play to win), the lack of any mention of Social Psychology relating to 'saving face' behaviors, the repeated use of the term 'scrub', and the bizarre only-semi-relevant examples relegate it to an amusing gamer-culture read rather than an objective analysis of the topic. :P
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madesautels

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Re: How lower level players view Possession
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2012, 02:03:04 pm »
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Thanks for the great article! I played a number of dominion games and it seems I'm a scrub... hopefully without the sad commentary from your adversary. After reading it, I discovered quite a few things that I never suspected were there in my game. But I think I'll stay a scrub because I never take enough time to study my past games and learn and invent new combos. I'm quite happy with that but I would never say that someone who is really playing for winning is playing "cheap". It's quite absurd.

P.S. : Sorry if my reply is a little difficult to read, english is my second language.
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Diving Pikachu

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Re: How lower level players view Possession
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2012, 02:45:47 pm »
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Someone got mad at me for getting Possessions in a game where both of us went with Alchemist. King's Court was involved as well. Yes, it was brutal, but I had left myself just as vulnerable to Possession as he was. Really, I think if you're sure your opponent is going to get Possession, it's remarkably easy to counter with aggressive, early greening.

Oh wait. I remembered that wrong...

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120408-180733-bd68d0da.html

It was a Black Market game where I got the TR, KC, Possession, Margrave, and Young Witch via BM, while he only got Nomad Camp, Goons, Noble Brigand, and Jack. Wow, that was harsh. But he bought a City and a second Potion early on, and always bought copper with his Goons when he got the chance. So he was playing suboptimally anyways.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 03:01:18 pm by Diving Pikachu »
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DStu

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Re: How lower level players view Possession
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2012, 04:13:38 pm »
+1

I'm not sure if Janeway falls into this. Living is not a game, and coming home is not the only goal. And at least she broke the Temporal Prime Directive in the end. OK, that was some 30 years later or so, but seems like she evolved...
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mDuo13

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Re: How lower level players view Possession
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2012, 06:15:51 pm »
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I tend to look at Possession as a really expensive +buy / comeback card unless there's Masquerade or Ambassador on the table, in which case it's a threat that makes me want to avoid those (otherwise excellent) cards.

The other day I had an interesting example where it seems my opponent didn't realize this, got way ahead, and then I used Possession a couple times to turn a 5/3 Province split against me into a 6/2 in my favor using his Ambassador. Luckily he was pretty sporting, and we both agreed that Possession is an unsavory card for these and other reasons.

full game (action on turns 26 and 29)
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jotheonah

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Re: How lower level players view Possession
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2012, 06:35:56 pm »
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That article is downright Machiavellian. It also seems like the author is protesting too much - i.e. feels a little guilty about his style of play and is writing the article to justify it. There are plenty of games where concepts of sportsmanship override the idea of doing everything possible to win within the rules of the game.

Dominion, though, is not one of them. Even in the case of KC-Goons-Masquerade.
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Jorbles

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Re: How lower level players view Possession
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2012, 06:42:50 pm »
+3

There's actually a relevant New Yorker article to this concept in which a girl's basketball team wins by playing the full court press and everyone else in the league gets really pissed off.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/05/11/090511fa_fact_gladwell

In the context of the above article the winning team succeeds by playing to win by the actual rules of the game even though everyone complains that they're being cheap/unsportsmanlike etc. I haven't read it in awhile, but I remember it being a good read, and it provides many more examples of the above outside of the realm of Street Fighter.
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Kirian

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Re: How lower level players view Possession
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2012, 08:53:46 pm »
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There's actually a relevant New Yorker article to this concept in which a girl's basketball team wins by playing the full court press and everyone else in the league gets really pissed off.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/05/11/090511fa_fact_gladwell

In the context of the above article the winning team succeeds by playing to win by the actual rules of the game even though everyone complains that they're being cheap/unsportsmanlike etc. I haven't read it in awhile, but I remember it being a good read, and it provides many more examples of the above outside of the realm of Street Fighter.

Wonderful!  Thanks for that article.  I'm not a sports person but games and sports both deal with strategies.  I love the computer program and the naval simulation... sounds like something right out of a 4x game.
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mDuo13

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Re: How lower level players view Possession
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2012, 09:13:40 pm »
+3

There's actually a relevant New Yorker article to this concept in which a girl's basketball team wins by playing the full court press and everyone else in the league gets really pissed off.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/05/11/090511fa_fact_gladwell

In the context of the above article the winning team succeeds by playing to win by the actual rules of the game even though everyone complains that they're being cheap/unsportsmanlike etc. I haven't read it in awhile, but I remember it being a good read, and it provides many more examples of the above outside of the realm of Street Fighter.
That's an excellent article and a great supplement to "Play to Win". It makes me wonder... at what point is too much really too much? I mean, Dominion, especially on Isotropic, is pretty safe -- there's hardly any player interaction. No disheartening or incapacitating your opponent (unless maybe you're hacking somehow). The worst you can do is probably play a bajillion King's-Courted Possessions and take over all your opponents' turns.

Overall, I think that this community is fairly competitive, and open-minded about what's considered "legitimate" competition. Most players I've seen don't get mad when you IGG/Duchy-rush or Double-Jack them. If they don't have a counter prepared, well, they'd better do the same thing or they're gonna lose. They don't complain that you're not playing a "straight-up" game. They don't whine that you're "cheesing" them as Starcraft players are wont to do. I haven't heard of anyone going to Donald X. and complaining that he should rebalance Dominion so that Provinces are the only way to win.

I think a major reason for that is that the appeal of Dominion, for many of us, is the versatility. We like alternative strategies. We don't have a fixed concept of what a Dominion game "should" play like, because every Kingdom setup is different. The strategy you used to win on one board is probably literally impossible on another random board. Some boards have rock-paper-scissors strategy interactions; some others just have one strategy that wins almost every time. Sometimes a particular combination of cards makes a single strategy nigh-unbeatable; but an adequate counter may make it inferior on other boards. And this is normal: the cards and the game itself are open-ended, and you never know what new possible interactions may pop up. That's what Dominion's about, so the community is self-selecting towards people who appreciate these qualities.

Obviously there are players like Phule who think that using Possession is bad sportsmanship. I myself am not a fan of some cards that tend to reward runaway leaders and overly lengthy turns, like King's Court. That's normal. But I'm glad that vetoing every seemingly "imbalanced" or unpalatable card isn't the norm here. In this community, we shun the people who complain about losing, not the players who win with "unfun" strategies. I think that speaks well for both the game itself and this website.
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