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Author Topic: Badly designed cards  (Read 4643 times)

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Chappy77

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Re: Badly designed cards
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2023, 03:38:31 pm »
+2

Surprised everyone is arguing about bandit instead of mentioning shit like wharf, margrave, etc that are just beyond broken.
Broken or weak cards are explicitly not what this thread is about.

There are many examples of (arguably) suboptimal design in Dominion, most of which have been discussed ad nauseam (Possession, Rebuild, Governor, Swindler, Cultist, Spy and many other slow topdeck attacks and / or filterers). Other than those, I think the card design in Dominion is generally quite good. There are, however, some mechanics and some big picture stuff I dislike:
- Boons, Hexes and Loot; needlessly complex and swingy. Boons and Hexes were pretty unpopular already, why did there need to be Loot? In my opinion, Loot is actually even worse. The most meaningful difference between the Loots is often whether they have +Buy or not. Bad luck in that regard can easily decide a game, depending on how quickly you can get more of them. Apart from that, does the difference between, say, Amphora and Jewels, really justify a randomized 30 card pile you have to carry, get out of the box, shuffle and get familiar with?
- Potion costs (as mentioned by Gherald)
- The explosion of ways to play Action cards in the Buy phase, Treasure cards in the Action phase and Reaction cards just whenever you goddamn please is probably justfied by the amount of design space it uncovers, but there is a real cost with how much it distorts the flow of the game and confuses new players.
- The push of Engines has made Money and Slog games much less common, which is great for many expert players, but not so good for most casual players who don't typically enjoy sitting through 10 minute turns by their opponents. While Slogs and Money usually take more turns, those turns are much shorter and the games are more engaging and manageable. Also, it's now quite rare now to seriously have to decide between playing Engine or Money; Engine is almost always correct if there is a way to draw at all (you may not always have +Buy, but there are now so many gainers that single gain games are borderline exotic).

Your last point is, imo, why loot is good.  Plunder as an expansion seems to be bringing back a bit of the simpler times where you can do well by playing a few really big cards.  Of course it has plenty of engine cards too, but the emphasis on big treasures dilutes it a bit, which I think is healthy.
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Águia Branca

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Re: Badly designed cards
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2023, 03:55:00 pm »
0

Your last point is, imo, why loot is good.  Plunder as an expansion seems to be bringing back a bit of the simpler times where you can do well by playing a few really big cards.  Of course it has plenty of engine cards too, but the emphasis on big treasures dilutes it a bit, which I think is healthy.
I guess I agree. I just wish it had been achieved in a different way.
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Honkeyfresh

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Re: Badly designed cards
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2023, 06:01:55 pm »
+2

Distant Shores.  Why does the 6 cost elite card in a pile spam me with estates? It should have been made as a +1 vp and exile a estate.

« Last Edit: January 27, 2023, 09:22:44 am by Honkeyfresh »
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Honkeyfresh

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Re: Badly designed cards
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2023, 06:06:12 pm »
+4

I already made a thread a while back on why both Black Market and Tourney are fundamentally unfair, but this seems a good place to reiterate

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20854.msg873395#msg873395

Anyone who has played with me has probably heard me throw in my philosophical opinions of certain aspects of dominions that I don't Like.  My most frequent is that I kind of hate Black Market and tournament because I find them fundamentally unfair.  The swings are so great with the prizes in Tournament that games are often almost over based on who gets the prize that is most useful in that particular kingdom (ie it lacks, actions, curses, buys, etc).  Same with Black market.  I once got a Fortune on t5.  That game was already over. Or a wall game where one person gets chapel and the other doesn't.  That game is essentially already over.  Because the uniqueness of the cards creates a wild imbalance.  IRL I rectified this by playing "Honkeyfresh's Black AF market" where I set up BM the same, but make TWO decks. One for each.  Then it truly is an easter egg game, where you start seeing cards appear in the other player's deck and get excited knowing what possibilities are out there.  I've also done this with tourney, but the prizes were just defaced coppersmiths that I turned into "Honkeyfresh's  Tourney for Two".  It is SOOOO much more fun and allows you to build the prizes to make a sweet engine, not by saying what do I have to get so that the other player doesn't first.  It would b really neat if somehow this tweak was added to the non-rated games section to where you could play with two BM decks/prize piles, as it makes for a really fun, and eminently fairer game.

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LastFootnote

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Re: Badly designed cards
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2023, 10:16:25 am »
+2

Distant Shores.  Why does the 6 cost elite card in a pile spam me with estates? It should have been made as a +1 vp and exile a estate.

The Allies expansion doesn’t have an Exile mat. Just don’t buy Distant Shore so early.
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Honkeyfresh

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Re: Badly designed cards
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2023, 03:23:02 pm »
0

Miller.  Why does this only have one option?  The theory of the Townsfolk pile is to grab elders so that you can multiply cards that have multiple options.  I don't see why this wouldn't be like "choose one: +1 action +4 cards take or  +1 action or +4 cards take 1 treasure" so that you could get an elder benefit and gain an extra action & card.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2023, 03:29:33 pm by Honkeyfresh »
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Honkeyfresh

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Re: Badly designed cards
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2023, 03:25:46 pm »
+1

Distant Shores.  Why does the 6 cost elite card in a pile spam me with estates? It should have been made as a +1 vp and exile an estate.

The Allies expansion doesn’t have an Exile mat. Just don’t buy Distant Shore so early.

I usually avoid it altogether, though sometimes very late it is ok.

I guess if the exile mat is a problem then just make it +1 vp token.  the elite card in any pile shouldn't spam with junk.
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"Rap game Julio Franco, Chuck Norris, Texas Ranger/ Ice on my fingers look like I slap-boxed a penguin." -- Riff Raff Proverbs 4:20

"Sometimes I say some things people may think are just outlandish, but I'm going to have the last laugh." -- Riff Raff  Exodus 6:66

Imrahil3

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Re: Badly designed cards
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2023, 03:41:26 pm »
0

Miller.  Why does this only have one option?  The theory of the Townsfolk pile is to grab elders so that you can multiply cards that have multiple options.  I don't see why this wouldn't be like "choose one: +1 action +4 cards take or  +1 action or +4 cards take 1 treasure" so that you could get an elder benefit and gain an extra action & card.

I appreciate the thought for uniformity of idea, but that phrasing makes much less sense than the Miller we already have. This alternate version would essentially be creating an entirely new wording for a mechanic that hasn’t really changed since its first publishing.

The real problem with the Townsfolk pile is that Elder is basically a Silver that is occasionally also Throne Room for about 30 cards. The concept is amazing, I just wish it cost less for what it does. It’s a lot of work to get to for not a whole lot of payoff IMHO.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2023, 03:43:28 pm by Imrahil3 »
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Honkeyfresh

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Re: Badly designed cards
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2023, 04:04:01 pm »
0

Gladiator.  I actually love the card, but the "pretend to think" option is stupid AF. 1st off it's not really that funny. And why "pretend"?  I mean reading is thinking.  And it slows the game down sooooo much.  Now I can see have an optional reveal, but you know I don't have it?  Why slow the game down so often.

Supplies. 
 From another FDS thread http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20583.msg858250#msg858250

Why don't we have a play all supplies button.  The number of times you would ever not want to play all supplies is so small as it is. Especially when people stack these all the time, it really slows the game to play them individually. And if there's undo's or changeling it's almost unbearable.  Literally the biggest no-brainer in the history of the Earth.  At a bare minimum could we get an under-the-card autoplay option to always play all supplies that we could turn off in the rare game where its not wanted (maybe wall end game or your opponent has a monkey in play etc-- but these are a rare exception to the 99.9% of the time where we all want to play every Supplies we are lucky enough t draw.

Oh and it's undervalued too.  Like it's better than silver. Probably should cost 3 too.  In fact I would love a feature that when supplies is in supply silver would cost 2 and supplies 3.... And you'd still buy supplies, which just shows how criminally underpriced this card actually is.

I have mentioned this to 1000's of players since supplies was incepted.  All but one were like "fuck yeah that's awesome". and one person ever was merely ambivalent either way.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2023, 04:05:07 pm by Honkeyfresh »
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Honkeyfresh

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Re: Badly designed cards
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2023, 04:07:41 pm »
0

Miller.  Why does this only have one option?  The theory of the Townsfolk pile is to grab elders so that you can multiply cards that have multiple options.  I don't see why this wouldn't be like "choose one: +1 action +4 cards take or  +1 action or +4 cards take 1 treasure" so that you could get an elder benefit and gain an extra action & card.

I appreciate the thought for uniformity of idea, but that phrasing makes much less sense than the Miller we already have. This alternate version would essentially be creating an entirely new wording for a mechanic that hasn’t really changed since its first publishing.

The real problem with the Townsfolk pile is that Elder is basically a Silver that is occasionally also Throne Room for about 30 cards. The concept is amazing, I just wish it cost less for what it does. It’s a lot of work to get to for not a whole lot of payoff IMHO.

Oh I just came up with the wording off the cuff.  Really any 2nd option on Miller would be nice  just to make miller &elder a lil more powerful as I agree they are just a little weaker than they should be.
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"Sometimes I say some things people may think are just outlandish, but I'm going to have the last laugh." -- Riff Raff  Exodus 6:66

Awaclus

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Re: Badly designed cards
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2023, 04:13:38 pm »
+2

Miller.  Why does this only have one option?  The theory of the Townsfolk pile is to grab elders so that you can multiply cards that have multiple options.  I don't see why this wouldn't be like "choose one: +1 action +4 cards take or  +1 action or +4 cards take 1 treasure" so that you could get an elder benefit and gain an extra action & card.

Not all synergies in the game have to be spelled out on the cards. Miller is relatively strong at what it does (which is sifting) and sifting helps you connect Elders with cards with choices.
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sumrex

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Re: Badly designed cards
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2023, 06:12:27 am »
0

Oh i got a whole category. Hunter, Ironworks, Transmute etc, cards that give you something based on type should have said "otherwise" when counting the victory cards. So it feels really weird with night cards, and chainging "victory card" to "otherwise" wouldnt make the cards more complex, rather simpler because you dont have to ask twice what happens with curses. Fortune teller does not have this problem, because it just counts victories and curses as "bad" cards.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2023, 06:14:09 am by sumrex »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Badly designed cards
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2023, 01:24:09 pm »
+2

Distant Shores.  Why does the 6 cost elite card in a pile spam me with estates? It should have been made as a +1 vp and exile an estate.

The Allies expansion doesn’t have an Exile mat. Just don’t buy Distant Shore so early.

I usually avoid it altogether, though sometimes very late it is ok.

I guess if the exile mat is a problem then just make it +1 vp token.  the elite card in any pile shouldn't spam with junk.

Allies doesn’t have VP tokens either.
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joefarebrother

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Re: Badly designed cards
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2023, 02:16:59 pm »
+2

Oh i got a whole category. Hunter, Ironworks, Transmute etc, cards that give you something based on type should have said "otherwise" when counting the victory cards. So it feels really weird with night cards, and chainging "victory card" to "otherwise" wouldnt make the cards more complex, rather simpler because you dont have to ask twice what happens with curses. Fortune teller does not have this problem, because it just counts victories and curses as "bad" cards.
"Otherwise" would mean you wouldn't get extra value from multi-typed cards
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LastFootnote

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Re: Badly designed cards
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2023, 10:02:40 pm »
+3

Oh i got a whole category. Hunter, Ironworks, Transmute etc, cards that give you something based on type should have said "otherwise" when counting the victory cards. So it feels really weird with night cards, and chainging "victory card" to "otherwise" wouldnt make the cards more complex, rather simpler because you dont have to ask twice what happens with curses. Fortune teller does not have this problem, because it just counts victories and curses as "bad" cards.
"Otherwise" would mean you wouldn't get extra value from multi-typed cards

In fact my original design for what is now Hunter was "+1 Action. Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Discard them one at a time until no two share a type. Put the rest into your hand." But being extra good with multi-type cards was way more interesting than being awful with them.
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DaveColMD

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Re: Badly designed cards
« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2023, 11:01:49 am »
0

Hey HonkeyFresh. Here's another card to add to your BM/Tournament list - Sack of Loot.

It's like BM in that whoever gets lucky with the loot draw will win. There are different loot. All are a gold with other powers, and some of the powers are stronger than others.

Didn't think much about it until I just got thrashed becaue of the loots my opponent got vs the ones I got and I coudn't do a thing about it.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2023, 12:11:09 pm by DaveColMD »
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