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Author Topic: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat  (Read 18631 times)

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dane-m

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #200 on: February 01, 2023, 03:34:43 am »
0

- Reckless + Way of the Chameleon
-- This could go either way, but I have ruled that it works, you get the flipped effect twice. (a reversal)
My proposed method of explaining what was happening gets this wrong (and it would also have got Elder + Way of the Chameleon wrong).  Fortunately (for me at least) I can come up with a slight contortion that will get me to the right result for all the current rulings, though it might well go wrong when new cards cause more rulings.

Overnight I'd come up with a scenario that left me unsure exactly what Moat would defend against.  Player X plays a Rebuild.  Player Y reacts with Moat.  X trashes a 4-cost card and gains a Haunted Castle.  Moat protects Y from gaining a Curse. but does it also protect Y from topdecking cards, the effect of Haunted Castle having been gained?
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Jeebus

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #201 on: February 01, 2023, 04:08:03 am »
0

The essence of my issue is this:

A card gives you +$ must mean that the card makes you get +$. For instance, with Way of the Goat, the played card makes you trash - according to this ruling.

1. The card makes you trash.
2. The card tells you to trash.
3. The card instructs you to trash.
4. The card orders you to trash.
5. The card's instructions are to trash.
6. The card's orders are to trash.

To me these are synonymous. But according to the ruling, they are not. (This is not about terminology, but about concept. We can add more verbs and nouns.) Where do we draw the line? Between the verbs and nouns? Wherever we draw the line seems arbitrary to me.
I don't understand the list of 6 things or how it relates to anything.

Because if making you trash and giving you an instruction to trash is the same concept, then using Way of the Goat counts as following the played card's instructions.

Jeebus

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #202 on: February 01, 2023, 04:20:20 am »
0

- Reckless + Way of the Chameleon
-- This could go either way, but I have ruled that it works, you get the flipped effect twice. (a reversal)

Quote from: Donald X.
- Enchantress + Way of the Chameleon
-- Your choice!
- Way of the Sheep + Way of the Chameleon
-- Not recommended! But supported. Your choice!

Those two seem contradictory to me.

Reckless works if you're following the card's instructions; it doesn't if you're not (see Reckless + Enchantress, and Reckless + Way of the Sheep).
So if Reckless + Way of the Chameleon works, it must mean that you're following the card's instructions with Chameleon.

Okay, but then Enchantress + Chameleon should work like this: You apply Enchantress first, Chameleon does nothing. You apply Chameleon first, Enchantress works. So there's no way to escape Enchantress.

And Sheep + Chameleon should work like this: You apply Sheep first, Chameleon does nothing. You apply Chameleon first, Sheep works. Of course this doesn't matter in practice, because you can just choose not to use Sheep if you want the Chameleon effect.

GendoIkari

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #203 on: February 01, 2023, 10:30:06 am »
+1

I'm not clear what "your choice!" means for Sheep + Chameleon... is this ruling that you can play a card and end up getting just +2 cards for it? Or does "your choice" simply mean that you can play a card for Sheep, or for Chameleon, or for neither?
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Jeebus

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #204 on: February 01, 2023, 10:49:38 am »
0

I'm not clear what "your choice!" means for Sheep + Chameleon... is this ruling that you can play a card and end up getting just +2 cards for it? Or does "your choice" simply mean that you can play a card for Sheep, or for Chameleon, or for neither?

I'm almost positive it means you can choose which to apply, based on the ruling that the first one you apply will stick, since the next one does nothing when you're no longer following the card's instructions. It's the same for all where he wrote "your choice".

GendoIkari

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #205 on: February 01, 2023, 10:57:00 am »
0

I'm not clear what "your choice!" means for Sheep + Chameleon... is this ruling that you can play a card and end up getting just +2 cards for it? Or does "your choice" simply mean that you can play a card for Sheep, or for Chameleon, or for neither?

I'm almost positive it means you can choose which to apply, based on the ruling that the first one you apply will stick, since the next one does nothing when you're no longer following the card's instructions. It's the same for all where he wrote "your choice".

That makes more sense to me for sure, but them I'm not clear why this was listed in you saying it felt contradictory to the other one? (I completely get what you're saying about reckless ruling vs enchantress ruling). Surely there was never a question that if you have 2 Ways in play, the rule is that you could choose which one (or neither) to use when playing a card? What alternative rule could there possibly be?
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Jeebus

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #206 on: February 01, 2023, 11:22:55 am »
0

I'm not clear what "your choice!" means for Sheep + Chameleon... is this ruling that you can play a card and end up getting just +2 cards for it? Or does "your choice" simply mean that you can play a card for Sheep, or for Chameleon, or for neither?

I'm almost positive it means you can choose which to apply, based on the ruling that the first one you apply will stick, since the next one does nothing when you're no longer following the card's instructions. It's the same for all where he wrote "your choice".

That makes more sense to me for sure, but them I'm not clear why this was listed in you saying it felt contradictory to the other one? (I completely get what you're saying about reckless ruling vs enchantress ruling). Surely there was never a question that if you have 2 Ways in play, the rule is that you could choose which one (or neither) to use when playing a card? What alternative rule could there possibly be?

The latest Reckless+Cham ruling says that Cham means you're following the card's instructions. So Cham is different from the other Ways, while Ench is like the other Ways.
So that should mean: When you apply Cham, Ench and Ways will work.

EDIT: Oh wait, you're saying that you could just choose which Way to actually use? Yes, that's why I wrote about Cham+Sheep that it doesn't matter in practice. What I wrote above is about what happens if you (for some reason) were to actually choose to use both Ways on the same card play. Pretty sure that's what Donald X. was referring to.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2023, 11:26:39 am by Jeebus »
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Donald X.

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #207 on: February 01, 2023, 02:39:30 pm »
0

- Enchantress + Highwayman
-- Your choice!
...
- Highwayman + Way of the Sheep
-- Your choice!
- Highwayman + Way of the Chameleon
-- Your choice!

Can I ask why you get a choice in these cases? I'm not sure if you saw when i had first asked about this ruling, but:

It does lead me to a specific question on Highwayman, however:

Is the official ruling for Highwayman that you can play a Way (on an action-Treasure) in order to avoid its attack?

I ask because it's wording doesn't specify "the card's instructions". It just says:
Quote
Until then, the first Treasure each other player plays each turn does nothing

For me, the naturally interpretation would be that you wouldn't be able to choose any set of instructions (not even Enchantress), because that would be doing something.
Those answers were in the rulebooks; I copied them into my post.

What does it mean, that the treasure "does nothing"? It was still announced and still went into play; what it "does" is nothing. That's the FTI step. And, Enchantress and Ways override that.
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Donald X.

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #208 on: February 01, 2023, 02:51:12 pm »
0

Overnight I'd come up with a scenario that left me unsure exactly what Moat would defend against.  Player X plays a Rebuild.  Player Y reacts with Moat.  X trashes a 4-cost card and gains a Haunted Castle.  Moat protects Y from gaining a Curse. but does it also protect Y from topdecking cards, the effect of Haunted Castle having been gained?
(You mean Replace.)

No. Moat only protects you from the thing, not things triggering off of that.
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Donald X.

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #209 on: February 01, 2023, 02:53:54 pm »
+2

The essence of my issue is this:

A card gives you +$ must mean that the card makes you get +$. For instance, with Way of the Goat, the played card makes you trash - according to this ruling.

1. The card makes you trash.
2. The card tells you to trash.
3. The card instructs you to trash.
4. The card orders you to trash.
5. The card's instructions are to trash.
6. The card's orders are to trash.

To me these are synonymous. But according to the ruling, they are not. (This is not about terminology, but about concept. We can add more verbs and nouns.) Where do we draw the line? Between the verbs and nouns? Wherever we draw the line seems arbitrary to me.
I don't understand the list of 6 things or how it relates to anything.

Because if making you trash and giving you an instruction to trash is the same concept, then using Way of the Goat counts as following the played card's instructions.
I'm sorry, I still don't follow you *at* *all*.

You are using English words, not jargon that doesn't exist, right? Way of the Goat "makes you trash" if you use it. It has an instruction on it. But Way of the Goat on Smithy doesn't "count" as following Smithy's instructions. Smithy's instructions are +3 Cards. Way of the Goat instead means that "trash" is attributed to the Smithy, due to my ruling based on rulebook text and how I think players who aren't you will see things. I have endlessly said this, I have not shifted my position here, you don't like it, you have not shifted your position there, it is not so productive for both of us to keep repeating this stuff.
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Donald X.

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #210 on: February 01, 2023, 02:56:03 pm »
+1

I'm not clear what "your choice!" means for Sheep + Chameleon... is this ruling that you can play a card and end up getting just +2 cards for it? Or does "your choice" simply mean that you can play a card for Sheep, or for Chameleon, or for neither?
We recommend that you not use two Ways in the same game.

If you do, then when you play an Action, you can use either Way ("your choice!"). You can't use both, even when one is Way of the Chameleon, which makes this more confusing, but really, it's just like wanting to use both Way of the Sheep and Way of the Mule.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #211 on: February 01, 2023, 03:04:04 pm »
0

I'm not clear what "your choice!" means for Sheep + Chameleon... is this ruling that you can play a card and end up getting just +2 cards for it? Or does "your choice" simply mean that you can play a card for Sheep, or for Chameleon, or for neither?

I'm almost positive it means you can choose which to apply, based on the ruling that the first one you apply will stick, since the next one does nothing when you're no longer following the card's instructions. It's the same for all where he wrote "your choice".

That makes more sense to me for sure, but them I'm not clear why this was listed in you saying it felt contradictory to the other one? (I completely get what you're saying about reckless ruling vs enchantress ruling). Surely there was never a question that if you have 2 Ways in play, the rule is that you could choose which one (or neither) to use when playing a card? What alternative rule could there possibly be?

The latest Reckless+Cham ruling says that Cham means you're following the card's instructions. So Cham is different from the other Ways, while Ench is like the other Ways.
So that should mean: When you apply Cham, Ench and Ways will work.

EDIT: Oh wait, you're saying that you could just choose which Way to actually use? Yes, that's why I wrote about Cham+Sheep that it doesn't matter in practice. What I wrote above is about what happens if you (for some reason) were to actually choose to use both Ways on the same card play. Pretty sure that's what Donald X. was referring to.

So are you saying that based on the latest rulings posted here regarding Chameleon + Reckless, then you should be allowed to get +2 cards by using a combination of Chameleon + Sheep? Or are you just saying that you should get to choose Chameleon, and then when you get to the "would resolve instructions" step (for the second time this card play), you should be able to choose Sheep there and simply get +?
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Jeebus

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #212 on: February 01, 2023, 03:31:50 pm »
0

I'm not clear what "your choice!" means for Sheep + Chameleon... is this ruling that you can play a card and end up getting just +2 cards for it? Or does "your choice" simply mean that you can play a card for Sheep, or for Chameleon, or for neither?

I'm almost positive it means you can choose which to apply, based on the ruling that the first one you apply will stick, since the next one does nothing when you're no longer following the card's instructions. It's the same for all where he wrote "your choice".

That makes more sense to me for sure, but them I'm not clear why this was listed in you saying it felt contradictory to the other one? (I completely get what you're saying about reckless ruling vs enchantress ruling). Surely there was never a question that if you have 2 Ways in play, the rule is that you could choose which one (or neither) to use when playing a card? What alternative rule could there possibly be?

The latest Reckless+Cham ruling says that Cham means you're following the card's instructions. So Cham is different from the other Ways, while Ench is like the other Ways.
So that should mean: When you apply Cham, Ench and Ways will work.

EDIT: Oh wait, you're saying that you could just choose which Way to actually use? Yes, that's why I wrote about Cham+Sheep that it doesn't matter in practice. What I wrote above is about what happens if you (for some reason) were to actually choose to use both Ways on the same card play. Pretty sure that's what Donald X. was referring to.

So are you saying that based on the latest rulings posted here regarding Chameleon + Reckless, then you should be allowed to get +2 cards by using a combination of Chameleon + Sheep? Or are you just saying that you should get to choose Chameleon, and then when you get to the "would resolve instructions" step (for the second time this card play), you should be able to choose Sheep there and simply get +?

The latter. Like I wrote, If you apply Sheep first, Chameleon does nothing. If you apply Chameleon first, Sheep works (meaning +$2). This would be the same as for Chameleon+Enchantress.

Jeebus

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #213 on: February 01, 2023, 03:44:46 pm »
0

The essence of my issue is this:

A card gives you +$ must mean that the card makes you get +$. For instance, with Way of the Goat, the played card makes you trash - according to this ruling.

1. The card makes you trash.
2. The card tells you to trash.
3. The card instructs you to trash.
4. The card orders you to trash.
5. The card's instructions are to trash.
6. The card's orders are to trash.

To me these are synonymous. But according to the ruling, they are not. (This is not about terminology, but about concept. We can add more verbs and nouns.) Where do we draw the line? Between the verbs and nouns? Wherever we draw the line seems arbitrary to me.
I don't understand the list of 6 things or how it relates to anything.

Because if making you trash and giving you an instruction to trash is the same concept, then using Way of the Goat counts as following the played card's instructions.
I'm sorry, I still don't follow you *at* *all*.

You are using English words, not jargon that doesn't exist, right? Way of the Goat "makes you trash" if you use it. It has an instruction on it. But Way of the Goat on Smithy doesn't "count" as following Smithy's instructions. Smithy's instructions are +3 Cards. Way of the Goat instead means that "trash" is attributed to the Smithy, due to my ruling based on rulebook text and how I think players who aren't you will see things. I have endlessly said this, I have not shifted my position here, you don't like it, you have not shifted your position there, it is not so productive for both of us to keep repeating this stuff.

You don't have to keep repeating it, it's clear: Way of the Goat means that Smithy makes you trash. I've been trying to explain how I can't see any difference between a card (in this case Smithy) making you trash and that card giving you an instruction to trash. You still haven't really responded to this (which is understandable if you don't follow).

But yeah, you suggested I could state my main issue tersely and see how it goes, and I did. I think you're right that the conversation can stop here.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2023, 04:01:30 pm by Jeebus »
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Donald X.

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #214 on: February 01, 2023, 03:48:28 pm »
+1

- Reckless + Way of the Chameleon
-- This could go either way, but I have ruled that it works, you get the flipped effect twice. (a reversal)

Quote from: Donald X.
- Enchantress + Way of the Chameleon
-- Your choice!
- Way of the Sheep + Way of the Chameleon
-- Not recommended! But supported. Your choice!

Those two seem contradictory to me.

Reckless works if you're following the card's instructions; it doesn't if you're not (see Reckless + Enchantress, and Reckless + Way of the Sheep).
So if Reckless + Way of the Chameleon works, it must mean that you're following the card's instructions with Chameleon.

Okay, but then Enchantress + Chameleon should work like this: You apply Enchantress first, Chameleon does nothing. You apply Chameleon first, Enchantress works. So there's no way to escape Enchantress.

And Sheep + Chameleon should work like this: You apply Sheep first, Chameleon does nothing. You apply Chameleon first, Sheep works. Of course this doesn't matter in practice, because you can just choose not to use Sheep if you want the Chameleon effect.
Again, the issue with Reckless is that it cares about FTI, and Way of the Chameleon causes FTI. It says "follow the instructions." Does Reckless see that as an FTI it can add a copy of to, or does it think "oh that's some side thing that Chameleon did, that's not what we care about"? This isn't clear from card text / rulebooks. I have ruled on it though, the way I think will make the most sense to players.

Chameleon + Enchantress: Yes, Reckless and Enchantress both look for FTI happening due to playing a card. If one sees the Chameleon FTI then they both do. I'm with you on this one. The Menagerie rulebook says that you can use a Way to dodge Enchantress. So the temptation is to reverse the Reckless ruling to match the rulebook there. Possibly though I reverse the rulebook ruling instead. The question then is which seems like it will make more sense to people.

Chameleon + Sheep: You aren't allowed to use two Ways on a card. FTI doesn't cause "you may use a Way"; playing a card does.

So! Yes, Reckless and Enchantress should match for this Chameleon question.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2023, 03:49:41 pm by Donald X. »
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Donald X.

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #215 on: February 01, 2023, 03:51:13 pm »
+1

You don't have to keep repeating it, it's clear: Way of the Goat means that Smithy makes you trash. I've been trying to explain how I can't see any difference between a card (in this case Smithy) making you trash and that card giving you an instruction to trash. You still haven't really responded to this (which is understandable if you don't follow).
- An instruction to trash doesn't mean you will necessarily trash. For example, we could have Highwayman cause us to not do the instruction.
- We can attribute something to "the card did that" that isn't an instruction on the card.
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Jeebus

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #216 on: February 01, 2023, 03:54:22 pm »
+1

The Menagerie rulebook says that you can use a Way to dodge Enchantress.

But doesn't call out Chameleon specifically. Chameleon could be the exception, even though it's not brought up in the rulebook.
FWIW, I think saying that Chameleon (just like Reckless) really makes you FTI is a good call, since my impression is that most people think the phrase "follow the instructions" means exactly that.

GendoIkari

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #217 on: February 01, 2023, 07:58:43 pm »
+1

The Menagerie rulebook says that you can use a Way to dodge Enchantress.

But doesn't call out Chameleon specifically. Chameleon could be the exception, even though it's not brought up in the rulebook.
FWIW, I think saying that Chameleon (just like Reckless) really makes you FTI is a good call, since my impression is that most people think the phrase "follow the instructions" means exactly that.

Agreed, it takes an extra step of mental gymnastics to explain away why “follow the instructions” doesn’t cause you to follow the instructions. Granted, that extra step can work fine for the types of people who read these types of rules posts, but not for most people.
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dane-m

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #218 on: February 02, 2023, 03:21:08 pm »
0

Overnight I'd come up with a scenario that left me unsure exactly what Moat would defend against.  Player X plays a Rebuild.  Player Y reacts with Moat.  X trashes a 4-cost card and gains a Haunted Castle.  Moat protects Y from gaining a Curse. but does it also protect Y from topdecking cards, the effect of Haunted Castle having been gained?
(You mean Replace.)

No. Moat only protects you from the thing, not things triggering off of that.
Thanks.  Good.  That's what I thought the situation was, but I wanted to check.
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Donald X.

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #219 on: February 02, 2023, 03:37:35 pm »
0

But doesn't call out Chameleon specifically. Chameleon could be the exception, even though it's not brought up in the rulebook.
That's true, and there's a nice line of reasoning that makes e.g. Way of the Sheep dodge Enchantress but not Way of the Chameleon.
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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #220 on: February 02, 2023, 03:59:47 pm »
0

Chameleon + Enchantress: Yes, Reckless and Enchantress both look for FTI happening due to playing a card. If one sees the Chameleon FTI then they both do. I'm with you on this one. The Menagerie rulebook says that you can use a Way to dodge Enchantress. So the temptation is to reverse the Reckless ruling to match the rulebook there. Possibly though I reverse the rulebook ruling instead. The question then is which seems like it will make more sense to people.

So to double check, the reversed-rulebook ruling would go like this?

Your Chapel is Enchanted:
-use Chameleon: get +$1 +1 Action
-don't use Chameleon: get +1 Card +1 Action

If so, I give my thumbs up to that.
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Donald X.

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #221 on: February 02, 2023, 05:07:26 pm »
+1

Chameleon + Enchantress: Yes, Reckless and Enchantress both look for FTI happening due to playing a card. If one sees the Chameleon FTI then they both do. I'm with you on this one. The Menagerie rulebook says that you can use a Way to dodge Enchantress. So the temptation is to reverse the Reckless ruling to match the rulebook there. Possibly though I reverse the rulebook ruling instead. The question then is which seems like it will make more sense to people.

So to double check, the reversed-rulebook ruling would go like this?

Your Chapel is Enchanted:
-use Chameleon: get +$1 +1 Action
-don't use Chameleon: get +1 Card +1 Action

If so, I give my thumbs up to that.
No. Enchantress's +1 Card +1 Action doesn't become the card's instructions. It's not a thing Chameleon looks at. Enchantress gives cantrip instead of FTI; Chameleon changes FTI.

what fingers can I get for this
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Jeebus

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #222 on: February 03, 2023, 03:54:16 am »
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Yeah, this Chameleon ruling means that Chameleon is different from Enchantress and from the other Ways. Chameleon counts as FTI; the others don't. If Enchantress also did, then what Dz said would be true.

(I have suggested in this thread that all of them could count as FTI. Then there would be no question as to how/why Harbor Village gives +$1, and Chameleon + Enchantress would work exactly how Dz said. It would also mean that Reckless makes you do the Enchantress/Way effect twice. And the term "this" in Way texts would make more sense.)

dz

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #223 on: February 03, 2023, 07:41:34 pm »
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Chameleon + Enchantress: Yes, Reckless and Enchantress both look for FTI happening due to playing a card. If one sees the Chameleon FTI then they both do. I'm with you on this one. The Menagerie rulebook says that you can use a Way to dodge Enchantress. So the temptation is to reverse the Reckless ruling to match the rulebook there. Possibly though I reverse the rulebook ruling instead. The question then is which seems like it will make more sense to people.

So to double check, the reversed-rulebook ruling would go like this?

Your Chapel is Enchanted:
-use Chameleon: get +$1 +1 Action
-don't use Chameleon: get +1 Card +1 Action

If so, I give my thumbs up to that.
No. Enchantress's +1 Card +1 Action doesn't become the card's instructions. It's not a thing Chameleon looks at. Enchantress gives cantrip instead of FTI; Chameleon changes FTI.

what fingers can I get for this

You can have a 2nd thumbs up. You'll have to look elsewhere for more thumbs though. I would guess that a lot of players would get upset when they find out Chameleon loses to Enchantress; but I think even more players would get upset if Reckless Chameleon doesn't work twice, so these seem like the best rulings to me.

Also does this mean that Chameleon loses to Highwayman? I'd guess that Highwayman's wording is secretly a shorter version of Enchantress. The longer wording would be something like:

"Each turn, the first time each other player plays a Treasure card, they get +$0 instead of following its instructions"
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GendoIkari

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #224 on: February 03, 2023, 09:43:02 pm »
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Also does this mean that Chameleon loses to Highwayman? I'd guess that Highwayman's wording is secretly a shorter version of Enchantress. The longer wording would be something like:

"Each turn, the first time each other player plays a Treasure card, they get +$0 instead of following its instructions"

Hmm, given that there’s a FAQ ruling on Highwayman which says that Ways can be used to counter it, I think you’d have to be right. But it’s not how I would have read the text on Highwayman if I were just reading that; I’d have assumed you can’t choose to use a Way at all, because letting you choose a Way is something that playing a card “does”, and Highwayman says it does “nothing”.
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