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Author Topic: Replaying Durations that aren't in play  (Read 2063 times)

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dz

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Replaying Durations that aren't in play
« on: December 24, 2022, 09:06:11 pm »
+1

Flagship cares if a card is non-Command, but doesn't care if the card is in play. So if I play Flagship and then Band of Misfits, the Flagship ignores BoM, and then when the BoM plays a duration (let's say Caravan), the Flagship replays the Caravan from the supply. Clearly BoM stays in play, but will Flagship stay in play?

Since Scepter replaying a Caravan will stay in play, that leads me to think that Flagship also should stay in play (it also uses replay). But if you Throne a Caravan and then remove it from play (e.g. Way of the Horse), the Throne doesn't stay in play, so maybe Flagship shouldn't stay in play? It's new territory from a rules perspective, so I dunno.

(On D.G., Flagship doesn't stay in play.)
« Last Edit: December 24, 2022, 09:07:26 pm by dz »
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AJD

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Re: Replaying Durations that aren't in play
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2022, 10:13:37 pm »
+2

I believe the rule is that Throne Room variants stay in play as long as the card they play actually remains in play, whereas Misfits variants stay in play as long as the card they play would have remained in play. Since Flagship is a Throne variant (i.e., it causes a card to be replayed), it should be subject to the Throne rules, and since the card it played was Caravan and the Caravan isn't in play, it shouldn't stay in play. That's my reading of the rules, anyway.
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Ingix

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Re: Replaying Durations that aren't in play
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2022, 04:21:12 am »
+1

I asked this as well, and the response was that anything that plays a card that isn't in play or isn't moving it into play is subject to the "playing a card, leaving it there" rules. It's just that due to the rules for playing cards, that can only be cards that explicitely do so (Band of Misfits, etc.) and cards that use the "replay" keyword. Of them (AFAIK Royal Carriage, Scepter, Citadel, Flagship) the first 2 have explicite conditions on them that the card must be in play, and Citadel isn't going anywhere, no mattter what happens. That leaves Flagship as the currently only card (AFAIK) to which that applies.

Note that this is bugged on dominion.games.
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AJD

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Re: Replaying Durations that aren't in play
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2022, 11:23:05 am »
+1

Wait, doesn't "anything playing a card that isn't in play or isn't moving it into play" include Throne Rooms in the Throne–Caravan–Way of the Horse situation? The second time the Caravan gets played by that Throne Room, it's not in play and not moving into play. Does that mean the Throne Room in that scenario stays in play as long as the Caravan would? I think that contradicts previous rulings.
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Donald X.

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Re: Replaying Durations that aren't in play
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2022, 02:56:45 pm »
+1

Wait, doesn't "anything playing a card that isn't in play or isn't moving it into play" include Throne Rooms in the Throne–Caravan–Way of the Horse situation? The second time the Caravan gets played by that Throne Room, it's not in play and not moving into play. Does that mean the Throne Room in that scenario stays in play as long as the Caravan would? I think that contradicts previous rulings.
I'm not looking up if this actually contradicts a ruling, or if it contradicts a ruling but only because that ruling predated this one. But, you're correct otherwise; if Throne Room plays a Caravan that's not in play due to Way of the Horse, Throne should stay out as long as the Caravan would have, just like with Band of Misfits etc.
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dz

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Re: Replaying Durations that aren't in play
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2022, 03:29:14 pm »
+1

Wait, doesn't "anything playing a card that isn't in play or isn't moving it into play" include Throne Rooms in the Throne–Caravan–Way of the Horse situation? The second time the Caravan gets played by that Throne Room, it's not in play and not moving into play. Does that mean the Throne Room in that scenario stays in play as long as the Caravan would? I think that contradicts previous rulings.
I'm not looking up if this actually contradicts a ruling, or if it contradicts a ruling but only because that ruling predated this one. But, you're correct otherwise; if Throne Room plays a Caravan that's not in play due to Way of the Horse, Throne should stay out as long as the Caravan would have, just like with Band of Misfits etc.

So if I Throne Caravan, first return it to its pile, then replay it, the Throne stays in play. But if I Throne Caravan, first normally, and then I return it to its pile, Throne won't stay in play? Oh man that's hilarious.

But I heard that there are plans to errata Way of the Horse, so hooray for that.
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Jeebus

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Re: Replaying Durations that aren't in play
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2022, 11:59:04 am »
0

It's not just Way of the Horse, it's Way of the Turtle and Way of the Butterfly too.

Donald X.

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Re: Replaying Durations that aren't in play
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2022, 01:12:26 pm »
0

It's not just Way of the Horse, it's Way of the Turtle and Way of the Butterfly too.
Yes, these cards all need a fix of some sort, to be applied when Allies is next reprinted. I have no idea when that is and haven't worked on the fix, but they do need it.
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Jeebus

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Re: Replaying Durations that aren't in play
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2023, 12:56:05 pm »
0

Wait, doesn't "anything playing a card that isn't in play or isn't moving it into play" include Throne Rooms in the Throne–Caravan–Way of the Horse situation? The second time the Caravan gets played by that Throne Room, it's not in play and not moving into play. Does that mean the Throne Room in that scenario stays in play as long as the Caravan would? I think that contradicts previous rulings.
I'm not looking up if this actually contradicts a ruling, or if it contradicts a ruling but only because that ruling predated this one. But, you're correct otherwise; if Throne Room plays a Caravan that's not in play due to Way of the Horse, Throne should stay out as long as the Caravan would have, just like with Band of Misfits etc.

It's definitely a new ruling. Previously this rule only applied to cards like Band of Misfits, Overlord, Inheritance, Necromancer and Captain, not to Throne Room:

Rule 2 is there to tell people about the changes; the actual rulebook location for rule 2 would be in each relevant card's FAQ. It wouldn't have a special section in a rulebook because it's not something I want anyone to see unless they are specifically looking up a relevant card. There's no challenge of which cards it applies to, it would apply to the cards that explained it. It's not challenging to me either, it's cards that play cards that aren't put into play. Throne Room for example does not do that; it can fail to put the card into play e.g. when playing a one-shot the second time, but it always tries to put the card into play.

AJD

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Re: Replaying Durations that aren't in play
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2023, 05:30:49 pm »
0

Gotta edit some stuff on the wiki, I guess
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Jeebus

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Re: Replaying Durations that aren't in play
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2023, 10:20:44 am »
+1

I also realize that this means the original Dark Ages rulebook is again correct(!) regarding Procession, while the 2017 rulebook (which used to be correct based on the rule change regarding Throne Rooms and Durations) is now wrong.

EDIT: I think this is wrong!
« Last Edit: February 03, 2023, 03:55:03 am by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Replaying Durations that aren't in play
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2023, 04:02:09 am »
0

Donald X.,

Is the ruling
a card that plays a card stays in play as long as that card would have stayed in play; or
a card that plays a card that is not in play stays in play as long as that card would have stayed in play?

In other words, if you Procession a BoM to play a Duration, does the Procession stay?

Donald X.

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Re: Replaying Durations that aren't in play
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2023, 04:36:15 pm »
+1

Donald X.,

Is the ruling
a card that plays a card stays in play as long as that card would have stayed in play; or
a card that plays a card that is not in play stays in play as long as that card would have stayed in play?

In other words, if you Procession a BoM to play a Duration, does the Procession stay?
I guess I have ruled both ways on this.

For sure the second one is true (whether or not the first is); that's the rule that handles tracking for Band of Misfits on a Duration card. Obv. it would be simpler if Band of Misfits didn't work on Duration cards; lack of foresight over a decade ago, plus public outcry, leave Band of Misfits working on Durations. And this rule (about leaving BoM out) is in rulebooks now, in BoM FAQs.

Duration card rules say that Thrones stay out; that's special to Thrones plus Durations. Throne FAQs don't even have this rule.

Obv. in the case of Procession on BoM on Amulet, BoM vanishes and there's a hole in our tracking. I guess Procession could have also said non-Command. Trashing cards from play is trouble.

The precedent is that a Throne Room that plays a card with future effects but which is not a Duration, doesn't stay out; for example Throne Throne Amulet. So I am leaning towards, the BoM rule is in fact only for BoM's, and Procession a BoM a Duration does not keep Procession out. Procession a BoM lets you cheat the non-Duration clause and cause a tracking issue. For years we just had that tracking issue, and I guess we survived; I could solve it someday with non-Command on Procession.
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Jeebus

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Re: Replaying Durations that aren't in play
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2023, 07:38:48 am »
0

For sure the second one is true (whether or not the first is); that's the rule that handles tracking for Band of Misfits on a Duration card. Obv. it would be simpler if Band of Misfits didn't work on Duration cards; lack of foresight over a decade ago, plus public outcry, leave Band of Misfits working on Durations. And this rule (about leaving BoM out) is in rulebooks now, in BoM FAQs.

I was actually advocating adding "non-Duration" to BoM (and Overlord and Inheritance) back in 2019. But then I realized that it wouldn't solve all tracking problems, since you could still play BoM to play TR to play a Duration.

Quote from: Donald X.
So I am leaning towards, the BoM rule is in fact only for BoM's, and Procession a BoM a Duration does not keep Procession out.

I guess you still mean that the rule also applies to scenarios like in this thread (Flagship + BoM + Duration)?

Donald X.

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Re: Replaying Durations that aren't in play
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2023, 01:15:45 pm »
0

Quote from: Donald X.
So I am leaning towards, the BoM rule is in fact only for BoM's, and Procession a BoM a Duration does not keep Procession out.

I guess you still mean that the rule also applies to scenarios like in this thread (Flagship + BoM + Duration)?
I don't understand the question. Flagship is both a Command card and a Duration card.
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Jeebus

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Re: Replaying Durations that aren't in play
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2023, 01:59:46 pm »
0

Quote from: Donald X.
So I am leaning towards, the BoM rule is in fact only for BoM's, and Procession a BoM a Duration does not keep Procession out.

I guess you still mean that the rule also applies to scenarios like in this thread (Flagship + BoM + Duration)?
I don't understand the question. Flagship is both a Command card and a Duration card.

I was referring to the question in the OP of this thread. Is the ruling that Flagship stays in play? (Flagship is a TR; it's not a BoM, i.e. a card that says to play a card leaving it there.)

Donald X.

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Re: Replaying Durations that aren't in play
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2023, 01:29:01 pm »
+1

Quote from: Donald X.
So I am leaning towards, the BoM rule is in fact only for BoM's, and Procession a BoM a Duration does not keep Procession out.

I guess you still mean that the rule also applies to scenarios like in this thread (Flagship + BoM + Duration)?
I don't understand the question. Flagship is both a Command card and a Duration card.

I was referring to the question in the OP of this thread. Is the ruling that Flagship stays in play? (Flagship is a TR; it's not a BoM, i.e. a card that says to play a card leaving it there.)
Originally I was thinking, "oh right, thx, Throne Rooms should behave like Band of Misfits, staying out when cards aren't in play, for consistency and a simpler rule and Whatnot."

Now I am thinking, "Throne a Throne a Duration doesn't keep out the first Throne; the consistent thing is to not change Thrones here." In the early days, Thrones had a much more confusing rule; it was a Good Thing to simplify it down to "did you play a Duration that's still in play." Ultimately this is a fight between "is there some way to track this" and "can this rule be something that can actually go into a rulebook."

For the OP, Flagship played a Duration card, and there's a rule for that, it stays in play as long as the Duration card *stays in play*. It's not the BoM rule that keeps BoM out by caring about how long the Duration *would have stayed out*. So nothing is keeping Flagship out.
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