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Author Topic: Plunder is online  (Read 4905 times)

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GendoIkari

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #50 on: December 27, 2022, 02:27:04 pm »
+1

Cage is not even indirectly giving you money, is it?

I too was confused how this card 'qualified' as a Treasure?  I like the mechanics of the card the the 'Treasure' type is confusing, as it seemed more like an Action - Duration Type
While most Treasures do produce Coins, Horn of Plenty, War Chest, Sunken Treasure and Tools are gainers and plenty of other Treasures do not unconditionally produce Coins. For example Tiara and King's Cache are Thrones can theoretically fail to yield Coins and Crown is a Throne that fatils to do so quite often.

So the notion that all Treasures should somehow always produce Coins is pretty weird given that this has not been the case for over 10 years.

Yeah, but those have specific good reasons why they need to be a Treasure. Sunken Treasure becomes way more powerful if it were an Action, and you could just play it at the start of your turn. Horn of Plenty and Tools could be a Night if that was an option, but they are weaker if you can't play them after playing Treasures. Tiara and King's Cache are obvious; they might not produce any , but their whole thing is copying other treasures.

War Chest is more like Cage; a bit of a stretch required to say that it makes sense as a Treasure, although the very fact that it gains cards does make it feel a bit more like buying something.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 02:28:20 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #51 on: December 27, 2022, 02:41:36 pm »
+2

It is not as if Actions are what you should always and above all do while Treasures are some kind of niche card category that is only done when it is absolutely mechanically necessary. Cage could very well be a non-terminal Action but, big surprise, that non-terminal is implemented as a Treasure in an expansion with a heavy focus on Treasures.

Treasures can do whatever the designer wants them to do. And while no producing Coins is unusual, as witnessed by the huge zero on the first version of Horn of Plenty, it is now fairly common and in my opinion the game is better due to this increasing design flexibility concerning the yellow stuff.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #52 on: December 27, 2022, 10:13:59 pm »
0

It is not as if Actions are what you should always and above all do while Treasures are some kind of niche card category that is only done when it is absolutely mechanically necessary. Cage could very well be a non-terminal Action but, big surprise, that non-terminal is implemented as a Treasure in an expansion with a heavy focus on Treasures.

Treasures can do whatever the designer wants them to do. And while no producing Coins is unusual, as witnessed by the huge zero on the first version of Horn of Plenty, it is now fairly common and in my opinion the game is better due to this increasing design flexibility concerning the yellow stuff.

That's all true, but it's also true that Cage is the first treasure I know of where the reason that it's a treasure instead of an action isn't clear, except maybe War Chest. The question has nothing to do with the fact that it produces . It's that the reason for it being a treasure is unclear.
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2022, 02:09:44 am »
0

That was my precisely my point. Actions are not the „standard“ while Treasures are some weird funky edge case that need any rationale. Especially not in an expansion with a lot of Treasures.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #54 on: December 28, 2022, 10:27:19 am »
+3

That was my precisely my point. Actions are not the „standard“ while Treasures are some weird funky edge case that need any rationale. Especially not in an expansion with a lot of Treasures.

You make it sound like a complete coincidence that every other card that works the same as an action or a treasure has been an action so far. Clearly actions are some sort of default; or at least they always have been until now.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2022, 01:40:48 pm »
+6

While most Treasures do produce Coins, Horn of Plenty, War Chest, Sunken Treasure and Tools are gainers and plenty of other Treasures do not unconditionally produce Coins. For example Tiara and King's Cache are Thrones can theoretically fail to yield Coins and Crown is a Throne that fatils to do so quite often.

So the notion that all Treasures should somehow always produce Coins is pretty weird given that this has not been the case for over 10 years.

As far as I can tell, you're the only one who has mentioned the notion that treasures should always produce coins. That seems to be an assumption you made upon hearing people wonder why Cage is a treasure; "They must be confused that it's not making any coins." It's also kind of a weird assumption since, as you mentioned, it's not exactly a new thing for treasures to not make coins; certainly other people have noticed this.

It's more likely that people were noticing that Cage is (I think) the first treasure (including all the Loots we just got) that cannot (in any obvious way) contribute to gaining you cards. Most treasures help you gain cards by making coins (or potion) you can spend to buy stuff. The first set of cards you mentioned are, as you noted, gainers, so they do this directly. The second set can be used for magnifying other treasures, so they help in whatever way the other treasures do. The fact that some treasures (Throne, Scepter) can be used for other things is irrelevant; the point is that Cage breaks the pattern because it cannot.

At least, that's the reason I was wondering why Cage was a treasure.
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2022, 02:43:58 pm »
0

While most Treasures do produce Coins, Horn of Plenty, War Chest, Sunken Treasure and Tools are gainers and plenty of other Treasures do not unconditionally produce Coins. For example Tiara and King's Cache are Thrones can theoretically fail to yield Coins and Crown is a Throne that fatils to do so quite often.

So the notion that all Treasures should somehow always produce Coins is pretty weird given that this has not been the case for over 10 years.

As far as I can tell, you're the only one who has mentioned the notion that treasures should always produce coins. That seems to be an assumption you made upon hearing people wonder why Cage is a treasure; "They must be confused that it's not making any coins." It's also kind of a weird assumption since, as you mentioned, it's not exactly a new thing for treasures to not make coins; certainly other people have noticed this.
Nope. I responded to a post which responded to this post:

Cage is not even indirectly giving you money, is it?

You can of course read „indirectly giving money“ as gaining … but that is a fetch given that you could also read thinning as increasing the average Coin yield of your deck or drawing cards as a way to play more Coin producing stuff or whatever.
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segura

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2022, 02:55:26 pm »
0

That was my precisely my point. Actions are not the „standard“ while Treasures are some weird funky edge case that need any rationale. Especially not in an expansion with a lot of Treasures.

You make it sound like a complete coincidence that every other card that works the same as an action or a treasure has been an action so far. Clearly actions are some sort of default; or at least they always have been until now.
Ain’t just me dude. The designer himself said in the other thread that there was no deeper meaning, no fine-tuning or whatever behind converting an Action into a Treasure. Also pure coincidence that Shaman did not end up as a Treasure.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #58 on: December 28, 2022, 03:08:27 pm »
0

Nope. I responded to a post which responded to this post:

Cage is not even indirectly giving you money, is it?

You can of course read „indirectly giving money“ as gaining … but that is a fetch given that you could also read thinning as increasing the average Coin yield of your deck or drawing cards as a way to play more Coin producing stuff or whatever.

Fair enough. But I did, in fact, assume "indirectly giving money" included gaining. Maybe because that interpretation causes the question to make sense.

EDIT: Or maybe I should say because that interpretation matched the question I already had.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2022, 03:13:54 pm by chipperMDW »
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Holger

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #59 on: December 28, 2022, 04:31:18 pm »
0

That was my precisely my point. Actions are not the „standard“ while Treasures are some weird funky edge case that need any rationale. Especially not in an expansion with a lot of Treasures.

You make it sound like a complete coincidence that every other card that works the same as an action or a treasure has been an action so far. Clearly actions are some sort of default; or at least they always have been until now.
Ain’t just me dude. The designer himself said in the other thread that there was no deeper meaning, no fine-tuning or whatever behind converting an Action into a Treasure. Also pure coincidence that Shaman did not end up as a Treasure.

Has he said that? Previously Donald clearly stated that only specific cards should be Treasures:
Treasures should make money; I made an exception for a card that wanted to be played in the buy phase. They should feel like treasures - they make money, or, there's Horn of Plenty again, gain cards.
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J Reggie

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #60 on: December 28, 2022, 04:40:18 pm »
+3

That was my precisely my point. Actions are not the „standard“ while Treasures are some weird funky edge case that need any rationale. Especially not in an expansion with a lot of Treasures.

You make it sound like a complete coincidence that every other card that works the same as an action or a treasure has been an action so far. Clearly actions are some sort of default; or at least they always have been until now.
Ain’t just me dude. The designer himself said in the other thread that there was no deeper meaning, no fine-tuning or whatever behind converting an Action into a Treasure. Also pure coincidence that Shaman did not end up as a Treasure.

Has he said that? Previously Donald clearly stated that only specific cards should be Treasures:
Treasures should make money; I made an exception for a card that wanted to be played in the buy phase. They should feel like treasures - they make money, or, there's Horn of Plenty again, gain cards.

In the same post, he says that treasure-attacks, treasure-durations, and action-treasures probably aren't worth doing. Things have changed since 2014.

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #61 on: December 28, 2022, 05:35:31 pm »
+1

That was my precisely my point. Actions are not the „standard“ while Treasures are some weird funky edge case that need any rationale. Especially not in an expansion with a lot of Treasures.

You make it sound like a complete coincidence that every other card that works the same as an action or a treasure has been an action so far. Clearly actions are some sort of default; or at least they always have been until now.
Ain’t just me dude. The designer himself said in the other thread that there was no deeper meaning, no fine-tuning or whatever behind converting an Action into a Treasure. Also pure coincidence that Shaman did not end up as a Treasure.

Has he said that? Previously Donald clearly stated that only specific cards should be Treasures:
Treasures should make money; I made an exception for a card that wanted to be played in the buy phase. They should feel like treasures - they make money, or, there's Horn of Plenty again, gain cards.
Poster asked DXV about why Cage is a Treasure, DXV answered: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5799.msg899190#msg899190

Short version: Cage is a Treasure just because. Shaman could be a Treasure just because. There are of course differences between Actions and Treasures, as witnessed by that tedious discussion about Candlestick Maker and Ducat, but Shaman would be virtually the same if it were a Copper. It being a Treasure or Action is utterly trivial as the beauty of that very design does not hinge on which type it has.
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Donald X.

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #62 on: December 29, 2022, 01:18:09 pm »
+2

In the same post, he says that treasure-attacks, treasure-durations, and action-treasures probably aren't worth doing. Things have changed since 2014.
15 expansions! At some point you make a Treasure that doesn't make $ or gain a card.

There might have been more of that, but at some point some external playtesters complained about it. And changing Grotto to an Action also meant making it less similar to Cage, which was great.

The final version of Shaman was one of the last changes in the set. If it had been around for a longer period, it probably would have turned into a Treasure. It's not an Action "just because"; it was just not something I could endlessly consider while endlessly considering everything else I endlessly considered, and there wasn't much time for me to notice I could make that change.
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Imrahil3

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #63 on: December 29, 2022, 02:42:59 pm »
0

To add to the debate, there’s also the fact that Treasures have historically been, well, Treasure. They were generally precious metals, gems, jewelry, or other generally valuable items or money-alternatives. Cage and Gondola are a bit of a stretch in my mind for that reason, but then I thought about it more and Quarry has been around forever and doesn’t really meet the definition above either.

Anyways, the Treasures are cool. Getting to do a lot of Action-type things in your Buy phase feels great. Just played a game where I bought nothing but Silver Mines, King’s Cache and Crucible, and it was wild.
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ehunt

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #64 on: January 02, 2023, 07:44:38 pm »
0

big money is back! is there still wandering winder? he was always good at realizing when you should just play money.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #65 on: January 02, 2023, 08:17:27 pm »
+1

is there still wandering winder? he was always good at realizing when you should just play money.

Seems like it's been quite a while since any of us have been WanderingWinder here.
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #66 on: January 02, 2023, 09:22:23 pm »
0

is there still wandering winder? he was always good at realizing when you should just play money.

Seems like it's been quite a while since any of us have been WanderingWinder here.

He was a huge fan of Silk Road and on boards featuring that card, he was completely unbeatable. Now that card is gone ...
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AJD

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #67 on: January 05, 2023, 05:44:58 pm »
0

Reckless doesn't allow you to use a Way for the repetition of a card, fortunately.

Shuffle.it has been allowing this, though! I assume that's a bug?
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Honkeyfresh

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #68 on: January 06, 2023, 12:05:30 am »
+1

To add to the debate, there’s also the fact that Treasures have historically been, well, Treasure. They were generally precious metals, gems, jewelry, or other generally valuable items or money-alternatives. Cage and Gondola are a bit of a stretch in my mind for that reason, but then I thought about it more and Quarry has been around forever and doesn’t really meet the definition above either.



many quarries produce both metal ores and mineral treasures or gems.
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faust

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #69 on: January 06, 2023, 04:12:18 am »
+1

To add to the debate, there’s also the fact that Treasures have historically been, well, Treasure. They were generally precious metals, gems, jewelry, or other generally valuable items or money-alternatives. Cage and Gondola are a bit of a stretch in my mind for that reason, but then I thought about it more and Quarry has been around forever and doesn’t really meet the definition above either.
Also Harem. Though I know we'd all rather forget about Harem.
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