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Author Topic: * Plunder Previews #5: More Stuff *  (Read 7057 times)

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segura

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Re: * Plunder Previews #5: More Stuff *
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2022, 11:44:03 am »
+2

I'm really surprised King's Cache is able to cost $7 without any extra abilities while Tiara needs a buy and topdecking to cost the same as Throne Room.
Well, Tiara could be a $5 and still be pretty strong.
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: * Plunder Previews #5: More Stuff *
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2022, 11:51:48 am »
+2

I think Journey might end up being my favorite extra-turn Event. I feel like I generally look to grab Seize the Day later in the game when I come up with nothing but Silver - Silver or Copper - Gold. Those would be exactly the turns on which you'd want to buy it (since you're not locking yourself out of too much of your deck).
I agree, it's excellent insurance against a dud turn for an engine. Normally it'll be useless for a draw-your-deck engine, but as long as you can hit $4 with your dud hand, you'll usually recover.
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: * Plunder Previews #5: More Stuff *
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2022, 11:55:01 am »
+1

Wow, the d.g bot has no concept of the implications of the Shaman setup rule. It just ends up with all the starting cards from both our decks.

I'm interested to see how the TGG bot handles it.
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Awaclus

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Re: * Plunder Previews #5: More Stuff *
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2022, 11:59:06 am »
+1

Shaman is going to have some weird effects with trashing attacks and trash for benefit. Also cards like Pillage will be really weird. I play a Pillage, it self-trashes, then my opponent gains it ...

Good, Pillage really needed that nerf.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: * Plunder Previews #5: More Stuff *
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2022, 12:00:03 pm »
+1

New cursing attack: Buy a Curse with a Watchtower in hand in a game with Shaman ...
Do it in the opening with an Inherited Watchtower.
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Donald X.

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Re: * Plunder Previews #5: More Stuff *
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2022, 01:20:35 pm »
+6

I think Taskmaster is the first time we've seen the phrasing of "repeat this ability" on a Dominion card. Is there a reason it's not just "at the start of your next turn, play this again."?
Yes. A lot of work went into that wording, trying to find something that handled all the cases that needed handling. "Play this again" was tried and failed; consider Throning it.
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Donald X.

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Re: * Plunder Previews #5: More Stuff *
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2022, 01:22:29 pm »
+5

I'm really surprised King's Cache is able to cost $7 without any extra abilities while Tiara needs a buy and topdecking to cost the same as Throne Room.
The point of comparison here is an illusion. King's Cache and King's Court are actual doublers; Tiara and Throne Room are like copies of the card you play with them, except with bonuses.
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mxdata

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Re: * Plunder Previews #5: More Stuff *
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2022, 03:24:53 pm »
+1

It's interesting how Shaman impacts so much. It majorly nerfs trashing attacks, since most of the time your opponent will be able to get back what you just trashed on their turn (although in multiplayer games it could have the effect of shuffling cards between players), unless you play multiple trashing attacks, in which case they'll only get back one of the cards you trashed and you'll get another one

But also it's kind of funny how the trash has been becoming gradually more "leaky". In the base set, trashing was permanent. Once a card was Trashed, it effectively ceased to exist for the rest of the game. Then a few cards were introduced, like Graverobber and Lurker, that could gain certain cards from the trash. And now we have Shaman giving you stuff from the Trash whether you want it or not
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Imrahil3

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Re: * Plunder Previews #5: More Stuff *
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2022, 04:28:57 pm »
0

I think Journey might have a shot at most beginner-friendly extra turn.

I get what you're saying about it being simple with just playing an extra regular turn, but there are tons of "this turn" cards that will confuse newbies why they don't work. Like if you played a Priest on your initial turn, it's still sitting right there in play, but it's not going to give you money for trashing on your extra turn like a newbie might expect.

That’s pretty fair. Priest is enough of a nuisance for new players without adding that on top of it.

I’d still lean toward Journey being the simplest, as the most confusing part about it comes from other cards, not the feature itself. Yeah, “while in play” is wonky, but I think it’s less wonky than only playing three cards and wait, what’s the point of this if I can’t play the three extra Treasures I just drew with Smithy?

All this is a moot point entirely because I forgot about Seize the Day and that is a no-strings-attached extra turn and I think that’s probably the most newbie-friendly. They only have to think about it once! Even better!
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Gherald

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Re: * Plunder Previews #5: More Stuff *
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2022, 05:01:07 pm »
+1

So Shaman is the new forced slog huh. Played some games with it and my first impression is I hate it, it's way less fun than 2P Ambassador games used to be (but I understand why Ambassador wasn't good for multiplayer).  Shaman's design works for multiplayer though, so here we are. RIP Ambassador and his favorite game of estate tennis

Journey is very strong and games can consistently end by like turn 10 with it. Unless there's a 4 you /really/ want to cycle in before turn 3, opening Journey/some $3 is great because you're effectively getting a turn 2 with that $3 in either your hand or draw pile.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2022, 05:24:12 pm by Gherald »
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majiponi

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Re: * Plunder Previews #5: More Stuff *
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2022, 06:54:08 pm »
+1

Isn't First Mate and Tactician combo too strong?
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Re: * Plunder Previews #5: More Stuff *
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2022, 07:00:08 pm »
+4

One cool thing about First Mate is that you don't have to have the cards in your hand to start with. So you can chain Smithies like they're Cultists, or play a bunch of Labs as Lost Cities.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2022, 09:31:55 am by J Reggie »
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Águia Branca

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Re: * Plunder Previews #5: More Stuff *
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2022, 07:13:48 pm »
0

Isn't First Mate and Tactician combo too strong?
I guess it's pretty strong, but I'd argue that it has nothing on the combo of, say, King's Court and King's Court. Basically, you need quite a bit of setup and all it does is draw your deck and get some buys and actions. You then have to still discard all the cards you have drawn and draw to six if you want to repeat it next turn. It isn't very conducive to gain & play by itself, doesn't provide it's own payload and is pretty fragile. It's a stronger version of Double Tactician, with a lot of the same limitations and conditions.
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Gherald

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Re: * Plunder Previews #5: More Stuff *
« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2022, 09:06:18 pm »
0

it's kind of funny how the trash has been becoming gradually more "leaky". In the base set, trashing was permanent. Once a card was Trashed, it effectively ceased to exist for the rest of the game. Then a few cards were introduced, like Graverobber and Lurker, that could gain certain cards from the trash. And now we have Shaman giving you stuff from the Trash whether you want it or not
My own observation: as the number of of Dominion expansions increases (not complaining) ... the probability of an "oblivion"-type ability/mat being introduced from which cards can't ever as easily be regained to anyone's deck ... approaches 1
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mxdata

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Re: * Plunder Previews #5: More Stuff *
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2022, 10:44:34 pm »
0

Patience cards are almost like quasi-Duration-Night cards, in that the net effect is similar to playing a Night card whose effect is on the next turn. E.g., a Cantrip set aside by Night is similar to playing Ghost Town. Of course, for cards that care about what's in play, there's an important difference between a Patience card being set aside and a Night card being played, but in a lot of games the net effect of using the Patience trait is similar to playing a Night card
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Águia Branca

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Re: * Plunder Previews #5: More Stuff *
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2022, 03:10:59 am »
+7

My own observation: as the number of of Dominion expansions increases (not complaining) ... the probability of an "oblivion"-type ability/mat being introduced from which cards can't ever as easily be regained to anyone's deck ... approaches 1
I doubt it. On the vast majority of boards, cards in the trash are still irretrievable. The few games with Lurker, Graverobber, Rogue, Treasurer or Shaman (arguably Necromancer as well) give a break from the usual. In my opinion, they don't undermine the trash as in, say, Magic the Gathering, where most decks use the graveyard as a resource in one way or another, which then leads to the necessity of an 'oblivion' (which in Magic is also leaky, albeit less so). Unless an expansion with a major theme of resurrection or something is released, such a mat would serve little purpose and would be bad game design in my eyes.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: * Plunder Previews #5: More Stuff *
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2022, 07:01:46 am »
+1

Assuming there's just the 6 un-trashers (no others in Plunder), there's a 13.4% chance of at least one of them being in a game of all kingdoms full random latest editions (not accounting for Young Witch, Black Market etc.) I think that probability is low enough for the Trash to be considered the trash.

For comparison, when Dark Ages came out, the probability was 10.5% of having either Graverobber or Rogue in the Kingdom. Even just Base (1st edition) and Dark Ages gives a 30.8% chance of un-trashing (not counting Thief).

So fair to assume the trash is the trash when you play a game of Dominion, but of course it depends on the Kingdom.

A card that sends cards back to the box, to "Oblivion" etc. would meaningfully interact with the 6 untrashers, Forager, Necromancer and the "When trash" cards (+Tomb and Sewers). That would actually be quite common as the number of when trash cards is going up. Going to wait until the full set is revealed before calculating probability (and not sure how to include the landscapes).
« Last Edit: December 17, 2022, 07:03:00 am by NoMoreFun »
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: * Plunder Previews #5: More Stuff *
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2022, 09:12:34 am »
+1

it's kind of funny how the trash has been becoming gradually more "leaky". In the base set, trashing was permanent. Once a card was Trashed, it effectively ceased to exist for the rest of the game. Then a few cards were introduced, like Graverobber and Lurker, that could gain certain cards from the trash. And now we have Shaman giving you stuff from the Trash whether you want it or not
My own observation: as the number of of Dominion expansions increases (not complaining) ... the probability of an "oblivion"-type ability/mat being introduced from which cards can't ever as easily be regained to anyone's deck ... approaches 1

Expansion 32 (Dominion Legacy) will include a card: "when you trash this, tear up the card".
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Valendale

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Re: * Plunder Previews #5: More Stuff *
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2022, 01:56:05 pm »
0

Shaman is an interesting card. At first I thought it made trashing useless, but then I realized your opponent will be gaining before you do. Who knows, maybe I'll end up hating it after a few games though.
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mxdata

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Re: * Plunder Previews #5: More Stuff *
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2022, 02:05:26 pm »
0

Shaman is an interesting card. At first I thought it made trashing useless, but then I realized your opponent will be gaining before you do. Who knows, maybe I'll end up hating it after a few games though.

It can have some interesting interactions. For example, if there's only one Curse in the Trash, you're gonna be reluctant to trash a Copper. After all, you'd much rather force your opponent to take the Curse then to let them take the Copper and leave you with the Curse
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Jeebus

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Re: * Plunder Previews #5: More Stuff *
« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2023, 11:40:34 am »
+1

I think Taskmaster is the first time we've seen the phrasing of "repeat this ability" on a Dominion card. Is there a reason it's not just "at the start of your next turn, play this again."?
Yes. A lot of work went into that wording, trying to find something that handled all the cases that needed handling. "Play this again" was tried and failed; consider Throning it.

Hmm, what's the problem with Throning "at the start of your next turn, play this again"? If you gain a $5, it plays itself twice next turn, setting up its next-turn ability twice. If you gain a $5 that turn too, it plays itself twice again, etc. What am I missing?

Donald X.

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Re: * Plunder Previews #5: More Stuff *
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2023, 01:43:37 pm »
+1

I think Taskmaster is the first time we've seen the phrasing of "repeat this ability" on a Dominion card. Is there a reason it's not just "at the start of your next turn, play this again."?
Yes. A lot of work went into that wording, trying to find something that handled all the cases that needed handling. "Play this again" was tried and failed; consider Throning it.

Hmm, what's the problem with Throning "at the start of your next turn, play this again"? If you gain a $5, it plays itself twice next turn, setting up its next-turn ability twice. If you gain a $5 that turn too, it plays itself twice again, etc. What am I missing?
I'd swear there was a version that added copies with each turn. I don't have it in me to look through the discussions of the wordings though.
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Re: * Plunder Previews #5: More Stuff *
« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2023, 04:39:46 pm »
+2

I remember pointing toward Citadel during play testing. It added an extra play every turn and made it borderline un-trackable IRL.
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