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Author Topic: * Plunder Previews #3: Loot *  (Read 8290 times)

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gpope

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Re: * Plunder Previews #3: Loot *
« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2022, 10:38:50 am »
0

I suspect negative Traits are probably harder to make interesting since a card that's markedly worse will usually just get ignored altogether.

Why would that necessarily be the case? A lot of cards serve a specific purpose and you'll be happy to take even a weak card serving that purpose if it's the only one that's available. I agree that there's more wiggle room in the other direction though.

Hey, I did say "usually." Sure, if there's a good enough combo then it's going to be worth putting up with the downside, and obviously if something like Chapel has a downside you take it anyhow, but for a lot of cards it's going to quickly become more efficient to just find other things to do in the kingdom.

(I admit this may be a failure of imagination on my part, we've seen some relatively subtle/conditional positive Trait previews but I have a harder time picturing subtle negative traits as opposed to big obvious penalties like "+1$ cost" or gaining junk, etc. But this is another reason why I think seeing traits with mixed upside/downside is more likely than pure penalties.)
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Gherald

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Re: * Plunder Previews #3: Loot *
« Reply #51 on: December 15, 2022, 10:39:45 am »
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Prize Goat's trashing is nice but not that big of a deal, on average by the time you have more than a couple loots the game should be ending in like.. maybe 6-7 or so more turns?  Give or take. So you'll play your early-ish Prize Goat maybe 3 times or so. Personally I don't think I've had a game yet where I play Prize Goat and trash more than twice--not saying getting more trashing benefit doesn't happen and that it might decide the game in some cases, for instance maybe heavy cursing with Haunted Woods and no other trashing, but it's far from typical for this to be the case.

The issue isn't specific Loots always being good or better than others, that's the wrong way to look at it -- it's getting the right one at the right time that's most helpful in that kingdom drawing it as reliable payload.

Loots aren't super powerful, but they are good enough (better than Gold) that you want some and yet they are also stop cards so if you don't build a reliable enough engine while also going for just the right amount of loots (and hopefully ones that are useful with the board), you end up significantly behind. And the fact that they usually have +buy or a gain makes for some rather unpredictable three-piling as well.

Part of this may be our inexperience with the new set's cards and the fact that Preview games are heavier on loot-using cards than will be the case in full random, but I'm seeing a lot of games with loot where one person gets 5+ loots and buys 3 provinces on consecutive turns (i.e. 6 provinces across 2 turns) when the other player has barely started greening yet, maybe has 2 loots and afforded a province or two.  This happens all the time, a wide disparity in outcome that I just don't see as often in normal games and also don't see in Preview games that don't include loot.

Like I was saying we'll have to wait until the entire set has been out a bit and people are used to the new cards and mechanics, but my early take is that games with loot are disparate in their outcomes and basically Boon/Hexes on steroids in the extra unpredictable randomness they introduce, though of course they also add for interesting mechanics and unique abilities in a Black Market-esque way, just unfortunately not allowing for any of the same skill in adapting to them.

If there was a variant of Dominion geared towards more expert players with, say, two changes:

1) Loots, Boons, Hexes, and everything that refers to or uses them are removed from the game  (except maybe Druid and its 3 random setup boons)
2) There's an even, 50/50 chance of Black Market being in the kingdom or not.

.. that would probably make for universally better games, at least for dominion.games rated players in the range of, uh, 55+
« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 01:03:21 pm by Gherald »
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dirkdebeule

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Re: * Plunder Previews #3: Loot *
« Reply #52 on: December 15, 2022, 03:12:41 pm »
+1

Loot cards become (very) interesting for a lot of upgrade 'Remodelers', turning the Loot into Province (+1) (endgame) or Platinum/Grand Castle (+2)
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Gherald

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Re: * Plunder Previews #3: Loot *
« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2022, 03:43:30 pm »
+1

The funniest version of that is an opponent's Governor at the end of the game
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: * Plunder Previews #3: Loot *
« Reply #54 on: December 15, 2022, 09:07:30 pm »
+1

What really weirds me out is the choice of descriptions for Trait cards. Particularly that the name of the card is always used to refer to the pile (instead of something "this pile"). This in particular leads to a confusing card text for Cheap.

It’s already messed me up a couple of posts ago when I went to say “a cheap card” and then realized that that now has a specific rules meaning in Dominion, so I had to change it to “a low-cost card”.

That's the difference between a cheap card (a card with a low cost) vs a Cheap card (a card that has the Cheap trait)

(And a Cheap card might not be cheap - a Cheap King's Court is still $6 for example!)

Hunh, also I just realized that it would have no effect on cards like Transmute or Overlord whose cost does not include coins

Well, "cheaper" was already an official Dominion term since it appeared on at least 2 cards (Border Village and Lich).
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faust

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Re: * Plunder Previews #3: Loot *
« Reply #55 on: December 16, 2022, 08:21:47 am »
+3

Definitive Loot tier list:

S Tier: Figurehead, Sword
A Tier: Spell Scroll, Jewels, Prize Goat
B Tier: Amphora, Puzzle Box, Staff, Insignia
C Tier: Hammer, Orb, Shield
D Tier: Doubloons, Sextant
F Tier: Endless Chalice
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GendoIkari

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Re: * Plunder Previews #3: Loot *
« Reply #56 on: December 16, 2022, 03:48:30 pm »
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Giving Loot-gainers a type would have required either not doing events and traits that give you loot or introducing dual-type landscapes, which we've never seen.

Spoiler…?

I have no knowledge of such a thing, but it's a possibility.

Doesn't seem like much of a possibility though... Loot is clearly pretty powerful and not easy to get. Hard to imagine how a Trait could cause an ordinary cheap pile like Village to suddenly give out a Loot without making that card way overpowered. And you can't really go with something like "if you have 3 ___ cards in play, gain a loot", because then it doesn't really work with expensive terminals and such.

Shut up.  :-X
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Gherald

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Re: * Plunder Previews #3: Loot *
« Reply #57 on: December 16, 2022, 04:14:29 pm »
+1

Funny how in other conversations people were wondering how a trait could be negative and give out a curse or something like that without being too weakening. Now we know =)
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Valendale

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Re: * Plunder Previews #3: Loot *
« Reply #58 on: December 19, 2022, 12:06:42 pm »
+1

I love how each of the loots manages to be unique and flavorful.
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villafan001

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Re: * Plunder Previews #3: Loot *
« Reply #59 on: December 20, 2022, 01:40:01 pm »
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I'm surprised that Cheap exists: If most kingdom cards are designed to be as cheap as possible without breaking things, making a card still cheaper unconditionally should be problematic. Especially when it turns a strong $5 card like Witch into a $4... ???

Seems a bit like Chapel... a card far too good for its cost that breaks the normal rules of things. It may be broken if it were automatically in every game, but instead it just means that games that have it play out differently than normal games of Dominion.

But for every situation like that, there’s another mediocre card which at $1 cheaper suddenly becomes an entirely different proposition. These Traits are great - just like Landmarks, they force experienced players to analyse cards / types / the game in a new way.
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villafan001

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Re: * Plunder Previews #3: Loot *
« Reply #60 on: December 20, 2022, 01:43:20 pm »
+1

What really weirds me out is the choice of descriptions for Trait cards. Particularly that the name of the card is always used to refer to the pile (instead of something "this pile"). This in particular leads to a confusing card text for Cheap.

It’s already messed me up a couple of posts ago when I went to say “a cheap card” and then realized that that now has a specific rules meaning in Dominion, so I had to change it to “a low-cost card”.

Applying usual conventions of capitalising defined terms, this should be fine.
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ehunt

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Re: * Plunder Previews #3: Loot *
« Reply #61 on: February 12, 2023, 12:47:18 am »
+2

Definitive Loot tier list:

S Tier: Figurehead, Sword
A Tier: Spell Scroll, Jewels, Prize Goat
B Tier: Amphora, Puzzle Box, Staff, Insignia
C Tier: Hammer, Orb, Shield
D Tier: Doubloons, Sextant
F Tier: Endless Chalice

interesting looking back on this. i think i agree if you have ample + buy alread.

It does seem though that on many boards you are just desperate for the loots with +buy, which elevates chalice/sextant/shield/orb in your rankings and downgrades spell scroll/figurehead/insignia. Goat and Hammer are situational. I think Insignia tops my least-likely-to-be-useful list.
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DaveColMD

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Re: * Plunder Previews #3: Loot *
« Reply #62 on: February 17, 2023, 10:22:25 am »
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Having now played several games involving loot, my take is loot is just like Black Market. It's luck of the draw. If you get the better ones, it is to your advantage. If you get the lesser ones, it is to your disadvantage. Totally random. Not my favorite way to determine the outcome of a game. I have gotten spanked in games where we both had loots, but my opponent had the better ones.
It takes away strategy and turns a game into luck of the draw.
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faust

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Re: * Plunder Previews #3: Loot *
« Reply #63 on: February 17, 2023, 10:41:31 am »
0

Definitive Loot tier list:

S Tier: Figurehead, Sword
A Tier: Spell Scroll, Jewels, Prize Goat
B Tier: Amphora, Puzzle Box, Staff, Insignia
C Tier: Hammer, Orb, Shield
D Tier: Doubloons, Sextant
F Tier: Endless Chalice

interesting looking back on this. i think i agree if you have ample + buy alread.

It does seem though that on many boards you are just desperate for the loots with +buy, which elevates chalice/sextant/shield/orb in your rankings and downgrades spell scroll/figurehead/insignia. Goat and Hammer are situational. I think Insignia tops my least-likely-to-be-useful list.
Yeah I think a lot depends on how you're gaining your Loot. There are plenty of ways where you'll just keep amassing more Loot, so you'll have plenty of +Buy eventually. But in some cases the Loot is harder to come by and you might really need some +Buy from the first Loot you gain.

I would say the Looters where it can be critical to get the +Buy are Peril, Foray, Invasion and the Cursed Trait, and to a lesser extent Search.
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segura

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Re: * Plunder Previews #3: Loot *
« Reply #64 on: February 17, 2023, 01:39:28 pm »
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Having now played several games involving loot, my take is loot is just like Black Market. It's luck of the draw. If you get the better ones, it is to your advantage. If you get the lesser ones, it is to your disadvantage. Totally random. Not my favorite way to determine the outcome of a game. I have gotten spanked in games where we both had loots, but my opponent had the better ones.
It takes away strategy and turns a game into luck of the draw.
Indeed. An early Chalice or Goat is often game deciding. One or two Loots in a row without an extra Buy can be an auto-loss.

The Loot gainers are well done and interesting, Loot itself is not.
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: * Plunder Previews #3: Loot *
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2023, 10:03:28 am »
+1

Yeah, I really wish they just all gave you a Buy. Is Insignia really too overpowered with that extra Buy? Fine, make it +$2 instead. I don't really care, just give me the Buy!

All of the Knights have the trashing attack, and all of the Loots should have a Buy.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2023, 10:06:51 am by allanfieldhouse »
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villafan001

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Re: * Plunder Previews #3: Loot *
« Reply #66 on: February 20, 2023, 09:28:42 am »
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Having now played several games involving loot, my take is loot is just like Black Market. It's luck of the draw. If you get the better ones, it is to your advantage. If you get the lesser ones, it is to your disadvantage. Totally random. Not my favorite way to determine the outcome of a game. I have gotten spanked in games where we both had loots, but my opponent had the better ones.
It takes away strategy and turns a game into luck of the draw.
Indeed. An early Chalice or Goat is often game deciding. One or two Loots in a row without an extra Buy can be an auto-loss.

The Loot gainers are well done and interesting, Loot itself is not.

Playing IRL 2-player you can house-rule workaround this pretty easily. Split the Loots into 2 identical sets of 15, and as and when you gain a Loot, you choose (like Prizes with Tournament) which to gain. Makes for some quite interesting decisions as the relative value of some of the Loots varies considerably depending on what else is in the Kingdom.
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segura

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Re: * Plunder Previews #3: Loot *
« Reply #67 on: February 20, 2023, 12:18:47 pm »
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This is a significant buff that might make them too strong. Also bottleneck issues. Kingdom with no thrashers, Alice gains the two Goats, game over.
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villafan001

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Re: * Plunder Previews #3: Loot *
« Reply #68 on: February 20, 2023, 01:43:04 pm »
+1

This is a significant buff that might make them too strong. Also bottleneck issues. Kingdom with no thrashers, Alice gains the two Goats, game over.

That’s why you’d certainly separate the piles if you’re doing it that way. Agree that the random chance element will have been factored into the card design, it’s something that people like more or less I suppose. I mean, if you’re playing Dominion in the first place you’ve bought in to the concept that there is significant luck involved, but I can see for some people that there comes a line where luck has the potential to overtake skill.

I’m not really sure that 15 unique cards were really needed with the Loot concept, seems to me that it would have been just as interesting with fewer (and then you might have printing room for more copies). I don’t play very often with more than 2P but if Prize Goat is your only trashing option then I could well believe a lot of 3P games end up with a huge imbalance.
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