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[Donald X.]

What are we plundering, anyway? We're plundering loot. So the set has some.

Loot is a pile of 30 cards, with 15 unique ones at 2 copies each. You shuffle it before the game, put it face down, and when something says "gain a Loot," you take the top one. You also have to show us all what you got. You can't just buy Loot; it's not in the Supply. Something has to tell you to gain one.

Let's see all 15.



As you can see, your basic loot is a Gold with +Buy and some other bonus. But some have no +Buy, and a few aren't a Gold.

Some cards that use Loot:



Sack of Loot just gains a Loot, with no hurdles beyond getting the Sack. There you go: some Loot.

Pickaxe is a trasher, and makes Loot if you trash a good enough card. This Loot goes straight to your hand though.

Wealthy Village requires you to get a variety of Treasures in play in order to get your Loot; otherwise it's just a Village for $5.

And Jewelled Egg needs to be trashed to make a Loot.

For the rest of the week I'll have a mix of Events and Traits for the landscapes. Here are today's:



Of course Events could involve Loot. Peril sends someone to their certain death, but you do get the Loot they were after.

Prosper gets you a pile of Treasures, or maybe just a Loot and a Gold; it's up to you and the board.

Cheap is another Trait, simply making a pile cheaper. This happens after setup; it can't affect what ends up being a Young Witch's bane or whatever.

Next time: next time.

[Oyvind]

Donald’s post.

I'm simply loving this! Can't wait to get this set to my tabletop!

So, unless we have some piles with a weird number of cards, I think we can now safely deduce that there won't be any Victory cards in this set. 40 Randomizers, 30 Loot and 30 combined Events/Traits means there are exactly 400 cards left in the set, so I assume all the kingdom cards will be in piles of 10.

[JonnyGerman]

For my money Dominion has all the randomness it needs in the shuffle. Cards like Castles and Tournament are my least favourite, introducing unnecessary randomness by giving players different opportunities by (mostly) pure chance. Loot looks to have the same problem, tho hopefully in a less swingy way as the loots are more similar to each other than, say, Princess and Followers.

I think it would have been better to take the most interesting 2 or 3 loots and make each of them a regular treasure.

[Hockey Mask]

Prosper could be…prosperous.

[Sade]

Monty Hall vs. a Dominion player:

[Lotoreo]

For my money Dominion has all the randomness it needs in the shuffle. Cards like Castles and Tournament are my least favourite, introducing unnecessary randomness by giving players different opportunities by (mostly) pure chance. Loot looks to have the same problem, tho hopefully in a less swingy way as the loots are more similar to each other than, say, Princess and Followers.

I think it would have been better to take the most interesting 2 or 3 loots and make each of them a regular treasure.

There is two loots of each. You can have a house rule for 2 player games, where you have separate piles. I think thats how I would play it, if I ever played with physical copies.

[allanfieldhouse]

Donald's Loot post.

I'm simply loving this! Can't wait to get this set to my tabletop!

Could you maybe not quote the entire giant post with tons of images right below the giant post with tons of images?

[Gherald]

Loot's effects on the game seem more like Black Market than Tournament prizes to me.

Now that we know what loots are and how strong they are individually (Gold+, not Spoils-like nor Silvers with abilities), I still wonder what the $7 King's Cache is. A treasure that gains a loot to hand? Possibly loot OR a treasure? Playing a treasure 3 times a la King's Court seems less likely to me now, but still plausible. It could even be a duration loot gainer if the set needs that, though I would think there's a different card for that.

[majiponi]

What is the cost of Cheap Wayfarer?

At the start of the turn: $5?
When I gain a Wayfarer: $4?
When I gain a Silver: $2?

[Jeebus]

What is the cost of Cheap Wayfarer?

At the start of the turn: $5?
When I gain a Wayfarer: $4?
When I gain a Silver: $2?

Cost reduction only applies to Wayfarer's default cost, so:

At the start of the turn: $5
When I gain a Wayfarer: <no change> [Wayfarer doesn't copy itself - "last other card gained"]
When I gain a Silver: $3

Note that this is the same as with Ferry or Family of Inventors.

[AJD]

I guess since Loot isn't in the supply, there doesn't need to be a special type for cards that refer to them to remind you to get the Loot pile and shuffle it at the beginning of the game? Which is a shame; they could have been called "Ruiners" for maximum confusion.

(More seriously, I am a little confused that there are types that mean you need to prepare the Boons or Hexes during setup, but not one for Loot even though the setup needs appear to be the same.)

[AJD]

Ooh, are Loot cards the first pile of cards not in the Supply that don't say "This is not in the Supply"?

[GendoIkari]

Crazy how much different Prosper is in games with Platinum vs not.

[GendoIkari]

I guess since Loot isn't in the supply, there doesn't need to be a special type for cards that refer to them to remind you to get the Loot pile and shuffle it at the beginning of the game? Which is a shame; they could have been called "Ruiners" for maximum confusion.

(More seriously, I am a little confused that there are types that mean you need to prepare the Boons or Hexes during setup, but not one for Loot even though the setup needs appear to be the same.)

Yeah as I recall, the reason Spoils-gainers didn't get a special type was that there was no setup need when playing games with Spoils, but games with Boons required you to shuffle the Boons. Loot definitely seems the same as Boons in that way.

[faust]

Jewels really should have been named Pearl

[GendoIkari]

Also, boo, Loots are not landscape. 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Any particular reason the top Loot card isn't face up like it would be with Ruins or Knights?

[GendoIkari]

Any particular reason the top Loot card isn't face up like it would be with Ruins or Knights?

Knights and Ruins are in the supply and so can be bought, so it's not an option to have the top one hidden. Thematically, you don't know what sort of loot you're going to find until you find it.

[J Reggie]

Oh man, Prosper is going to be fun with Fortune and Bank and King's Cache, which I predict will be a treasure tripler that has some additional effect.

[Wizard_Amul]

It's going to be a bit confusing that the "Looter" cards from Dark Ages (only Death Cart, Marauder, and Cultist) don't give you Loot--I always thought the type should have been a different name for those cards. Most people playing the game a long time likely won't be confused, but I would think it would be confusing for newer players playing with multiple expansions.

[GendoIkari]

Oh man, Prosper is going to be fun with Fortune and Bank and King's Cache, which I predict will be a treasure tripler that has some additional effect.

Don't forget Pendant.

[mxdata]

Storyteller + Staff could get rather interesting - play an Action card in the middle of resolving Storyteller!

[mxdata]

Storyteller + Staff could get rather interesting - play an Action card in the middle of resolving Storyteller!

Oh, wait, I just realized that possibility already existed with Crown, so it's not a new possibility (and also Spell Scroll would work that way)

[Awaclus]

Oh man, Prosper is going to be fun with Fortune and Bank and King's Cache, which I predict will be a treasure tripler that has some additional effect.

And Merchant Guild.

[J Reggie]

I guess since Loot isn't in the supply, there doesn't need to be a special type for cards that refer to them to remind you to get the Loot pile and shuffle it at the beginning of the game? Which is a shame; they could have been called "Ruiners" for maximum confusion.

(More seriously, I am a little confused that there are types that mean you need to prepare the Boons or Hexes during setup, but not one for Loot even though the setup needs appear to be the same.)

Yeah as I recall, the reason Spoils-gainers didn't get a special type was that there was no setup need when playing games with Spoils, but games with Boons required you to shuffle the Boons. Loot definitely seems the same as Boons in that way.

Giving Loot-gainers a type would have required either not doing events and traits that give you loot or introducing dual-type landscapes, which we've never seen.

[Imrahil3]

Giving Loot-gainers a type would have required either not doing events and traits that give you loot or introducing dual-type landscapes, which we've never seen.

Spoiler…?

[J Reggie]

Giving Loot-gainers a type would have required either not doing events and traits that give you loot or introducing dual-type landscapes, which we've never seen.

Spoiler…?

I have no knowledge of such a thing, but it's a possibility.

[GendoIkari]

I guess since Loot isn't in the supply, there doesn't need to be a special type for cards that refer to them to remind you to get the Loot pile and shuffle it at the beginning of the game? Which is a shame; they could have been called "Ruiners" for maximum confusion.

(More seriously, I am a little confused that there are types that mean you need to prepare the Boons or Hexes during setup, but not one for Loot even though the setup needs appear to be the same.)

Yeah as I recall, the reason Spoils-gainers didn't get a special type was that there was no setup need when playing games with Spoils, but games with Boons required you to shuffle the Boons. Loot definitely seems the same as Boons in that way.

Giving Loot-gainers a type would have required either not doing events and traits that give you loot or introducing dual-type landscapes, which we've never seen.

This makes me curious... the sets that had Doom/Fate/Heirloom/Liaison/Looter didn't also have events. But surely they could have, given that we've seen events in 4 different sets now. Would it have simply not been an option to have an event that gives a favor token, or a blessing?

[GendoIkari]

Giving Loot-gainers a type would have required either not doing events and traits that give you loot or introducing dual-type landscapes, which we've never seen.

Spoiler…?

I have no knowledge of such a thing, but it's a possibility.

Doesn't seem like much of a possibility though... Loot is clearly pretty powerful and not easy to get. Hard to imagine how a Trait could cause an ordinary cheap pile like Village to suddenly give out a Loot without making that card way overpowered. And you can't really go with something like "if you have 3 ___ cards in play, gain a loot", because then it doesn't really work with expensive terminals and such.

[mxdata]

Mining Road + Sack of Loot would be extremely strong - and with two Mining Roads in play (or a Throned Mining Road), you could buy a Sack of Loot, play it immediately, then gain and play a Spoil too!

[mxdata]

So far the Traits we've seen make the cards they're applied to better in some way - giving them extra options or making them easier to get as with Cheap. I wonder if there'll be any Traits that weaken the card they're applied to? I suppose Fawning can kinda do that to Province, depending on which card gets Fawning, but that's very much dependent on what card gets it

[mxdata]

Giving Loot-gainers a type would have required either not doing events and traits that give you loot or introducing dual-type landscapes, which we've never seen.

Spoiler…?

I have no knowledge of such a thing, but it's a possibility.

Doesn't seem like much of a possibility though... Loot is clearly pretty powerful and not easy to get. Hard to imagine how a Trait could cause an ordinary cheap pile like Village to suddenly give out a Loot without making that card way overpowered. And you can't really go with something like "if you have 3 ___ cards in play, gain a loot", because then it doesn't really work with expensive terminals and such.

I suppose something like a Trait (call it "Wealthy") that gives Wealthy Village's on-gain effect to the selected card could work

[Awaclus]

Doesn't seem like much of a possibility though... Loot is clearly pretty powerful and not easy to get. Hard to imagine how a Trait could cause an ordinary cheap pile like Village to suddenly give out a Loot without making that card way overpowered. And you can't really go with something like "if you have 3 ___ cards in play, gain a loot", because then it doesn't really work with expensive terminals and such.

It doesn't have to give it on-play.

[GendoIkari]

Doesn't seem like much of a possibility though... Loot is clearly pretty powerful and not easy to get. Hard to imagine how a Trait could cause an ordinary cheap pile like Village to suddenly give out a Loot without making that card way overpowered. And you can't really go with something like "if you have 3 ___ cards in play, gain a loot", because then it doesn't really work with expensive terminals and such.

It doesn't have to give it on-play.

Not saying it does, but pretty much any effect you can do with it will mean that loot is way easier to get in a game if the trait happens to be on a low-cost card.

[Holger]

For my money Dominion has all the randomness it needs in the shuffle. Cards like Castles and Tournament are my least favourite, introducing unnecessary randomness by giving players different opportunities by (mostly) pure chance. Loot looks to have the same problem, tho hopefully in a less swingy way as the loots are more similar to each other than, say, Princess and Followers.

I think it would have been better to take the most interesting 2 or 3 loots and make each of them a regular treasure.

I suppose it can be game-deciding to get e.g. an early Prize Goat on a board with no other trashing. In rare cases, it's possible to gain a Loot turn 1: e.g. buy Wealthy Village with 3 Coppers and 2 Heirlooms...

I'm surprised that Cheap exists: If most kingdom cards are designed to be as cheap as possible without breaking things, making a card still cheaper unconditionally should be problematic. Especially when it turns a strong $5 card like Witch into a $4...

[GendoIkari]

I'm surprised that Cheap exists: If most kingdom cards are designed to be as cheap as possible without breaking things, making a card still cheaper unconditionally should be problematic. Especially when it turns a strong $5 card like Witch into a $4...

Seems a bit like Chapel... a card far too good for its cost that breaks the normal rules of things. It may be broken if it were automatically in every game, but instead it just means that games that have it play out differently than normal games of Dominion.

[anordinaryman]

Loots look amazing!! On a first glance I'm going to say it's one of best non-Supply piles (imps ties for me). Boons were a great idea, fun little random bonuses to spice up the game. On first glance, it looks like Loot implements this idea even better since they permanently go into your deck, and their effects are always useful (unlike boons, which sometimes can not help you depending on the situation and when you gain them).

Another way of thinking of it -- it's all the fun of prizes but it's way more balanced (the ways of gaining loot seem to beless random than tournament, and the size of the loot pile and relative strength of each means you don't need to resign if your opponent gets a core loot.) Well done, Donald X!

So far the Traits we've seen make the cards they're applied to better in some way - giving them extra options or making them easier to get as with Cheap. I wonder if there'll be any Traits that weaken the card they're applied to? I suppose Fawning can kinda do that to Province, depending on which card gets Fawning, but that's very much dependent on what card gets it

That was my first idea -- some sort of Trait like "Cursed" that gives you a curse when you gain it unless you discard a treasure or something. But then it's possible playtesting ruled negative traits out as not fun... I also thought about "haunted" that would involve top decking something like "When you gain a Haunted Card, put it and a card from your hand on top of your deck" ... I dunno, I guess we shall all find out soon!

[gpope]

I'm surprised that Cheap exists: If most kingdom cards are designed to be as cheap as possible without breaking things, making a card still cheaper unconditionally should be problematic. Especially when it turns a strong $5 card like Witch into a $4...

Seems a bit like Chapel... a card far too good for its cost that breaks the normal rules of things. It may be broken if it were automatically in every game, but instead it just means that games that have it play out differently than normal games of Dominion.

This is why I find Traits so fascinating and exciting, they promise to really push the envelope of Dominion's design philosophy. In terms of mathematical balance you'd expect most Traits to immediately break the game: you're taking a card that was presumably already balanced the way it was and making it stronger. But Dominion's balance doesn't really work like that, there's no expectation that every card is equal to every other card.

That was my first idea -- some sort of Trait like "Cursed" that gives you a curse when you gain it unless you discard a treasure or something. But then it's possible playtesting ruled negative traits out as not fun... I also thought about "haunted" that would involve top decking something like "When you gain a Haunted Card, put it and a card from your hand on top of your deck" ... I dunno, I guess we shall all find out soon!

I suspect negative Traits are probably harder to make interesting since a card that's markedly worse will usually just get ignored altogether. Double-edged Traits might be interesting to see, though.

[trivialknot]

I'm curious about the choice to have 2 copies of each loot, for a total of 30.  There are 30 gold in the supply, and those almost never even come close to running out.  Are the loot gainers strong enough that gaining over 15 loot total is a common thing?

I also had a thought.  Players who hate RNG could play a variant where each gets their own loot pile with identical ordering.

[Awaclus]

I suspect negative Traits are probably harder to make interesting since a card that's markedly worse will usually just get ignored altogether.

Why would that necessarily be the case? A lot of cards serve a specific purpose and you'll be happy to take even a weak card serving that purpose if it's the only one that's available. I agree that there's more wiggle room in the other direction though.

I'm curious about the choice to have 2 copies of each loot, for a total of 30.  There are 30 gold in the supply, and those almost never even come close to running out.  Are the loot gainers strong enough that gaining over 15 loot total is a common thing?

With these preview games and their rigged kingdoms, it does seem like gaining over 15 loot total is far from outrageous in my experience. Presumably it happens less in real games.

[grrgrrgrr]

Cool stuff so far. Sac of Loot definitely seems very strong here, as it is essentially a Treasure Trove that doesn't gain those pesky Coppers.

What really weirds me out is the choice of descriptions for Trait cards. Particularly that the name of the card is always used to refer to the pile (instead of something "this pile"). This in particular leads to a confusing card text for Cheap.

[GendoIkari]

What really weirds me out is the choice of descriptions for Trait cards. Particularly that the name of the card is always used to refer to the pile (instead of something "this pile"). This in particular leads to a confusing card text for Cheap.

It’s already messed me up a couple of posts ago when I went to say “a cheap card” and then realized that that now has a specific rules meaning in Dominion, so I had to change it to “a low-cost card”.

[mxdata]

What really weirds me out is the choice of descriptions for Trait cards. Particularly that the name of the card is always used to refer to the pile (instead of something "this pile"). This in particular leads to a confusing card text for Cheap.

It’s already messed me up a couple of posts ago when I went to say “a cheap card” and then realized that that now has a specific rules meaning in Dominion, so I had to change it to “a low-cost card”.

That's the difference between a cheap card (a card with a low cost) vs a Cheap card (a card that has the Cheap trait)

(And a Cheap card might not be cheap - a Cheap King's Court is still $6 for example!)

Hunh, also I just realized that it would have no effect on cards like Transmute or Overlord whose cost does not include coins

[mxdata]

Pick Axe + Silver is a rather nice combo - convert your Silvers into Loot!

[mxdata]

Inevitably there'll be kingdoms where the only card that gives Loot is Jeweled Egg, and the kingdom has no trashers

[Imrahil3]

Inevitably there'll be kingdoms where the only card that gives Loot is Jeweled Egg, and the kingdom has no trashers

Literally unplayable.

/s

On a serious note, it’s genius design to give +1 Buy there so that it’s never useless.

[GendoIkari]

Inevitably there'll be kingdoms where the only card that gives Loot is Jeweled Egg, and the kingdom has no trashers

More exciting are the games where Cheap is put on a card that has no in its cost.

[Gherald]

After playing a number of games, it seems to me the RNG of Loots is more impactful than that of, say, Hexes and Boons.  I still think they are more like Black Market than Tournament prizes, but they are also even more Hexes/Boon-ish in their RNG.

Maybe they'll be more fun to play with overall (hard to say this early), but my point is the RNG is kind of crazy. I don't even mean who gets access to which ones, that's not even important usually, games don't last that long. The issue is how soon you're able to get them (without sacrificing too much opportunity cost to building the rest of your engine, since they're mostly a Payload) -- as well as which ones you get very early -- a deck can simply spiral very fast and leave the opponent's in the dust.

Obviously there's always been a randomness component to this game--shuffle luck, starting split and heirloom luck, etc, but what I am saying is Loots add on to that.  Maybe you like them maybe you don't, but the people who dislike Hexes/Boons may end up disliking Loots even more than they dislike those, is my take, unless they really happen to enjoy the other (Black Market-esque) things Loots bring to the table even more.

[NoMoreFun]

I've had the opposite experience to GHerald. I haven't really cared which Loot I get - I'm happy with the Gold and everything else is a nice bonus which doesn't really decide the game. I put them in the same category as Boons. Perhaps even less bothersome - Loots are harder to get so e.g. Prize Goat being the only trasher doesn't bother me as much as someone getting an early Flame's Gift. 

Spell Scroll has seemed like the dud but that may be because I end up seeing it with Pickaxe and I've turned it into a Gold most times (which may not have been optimal play). Orb's "March" effect seems quite niche (+$3 and +1 Buy is more powerful than most cards in the buy phase) but I'm sure it comes up, even just to play one of the other Loots.

[faust]

Yeah I think the only Loot card that's potentially problematic in this regard is Prize Goat with no other trashing or maybe Sword with Governor/Council Room.

[gpope]

I suspect negative Traits are probably harder to make interesting since a card that's markedly worse will usually just get ignored altogether.

Why would that necessarily be the case? A lot of cards serve a specific purpose and you'll be happy to take even a weak card serving that purpose if it's the only one that's available. I agree that there's more wiggle room in the other direction though.

Hey, I did say "usually." Sure, if there's a good enough combo then it's going to be worth putting up with the downside, and obviously if something like Chapel has a downside you take it anyhow, but for a lot of cards it's going to quickly become more efficient to just find other things to do in the kingdom.

(I admit this may be a failure of imagination on my part, we've seen some relatively subtle/conditional positive Trait previews but I have a harder time picturing subtle negative traits as opposed to big obvious penalties like "+1$ cost" or gaining junk, etc. But this is another reason why I think seeing traits with mixed upside/downside is more likely than pure penalties.)

[Gherald]

Prize Goat's trashing is nice but not that big of a deal, on average by the time you have more than a couple loots the game should be ending in like.. maybe 6-7 or so more turns?  Give or take. So you'll play your early-ish Prize Goat maybe 3 times or so. Personally I don't think I've had a game yet where I play Prize Goat and trash more than twice--not saying getting more trashing benefit doesn't happen and that it might decide the game in some cases, for instance maybe heavy cursing with Haunted Woods and no other trashing, but it's far from typical for this to be the case.

The issue isn't specific Loots always being good or better than others, that's the wrong way to look at it -- it's getting the right one at the right time that's most helpful in that kingdom drawing it as reliable payload.

Loots aren't super powerful, but they are good enough (better than Gold) that you want some and yet they are also stop cards so if you don't build a reliable enough engine while also going for just the right amount of loots (and hopefully ones that are useful with the board), you end up significantly behind. And the fact that they usually have +buy or a gain makes for some rather unpredictable three-piling as well.

Part of this may be our inexperience with the new set's cards and the fact that Preview games are heavier on loot-using cards than will be the case in full random, but I'm seeing a lot of games with loot where one person gets 5+ loots and buys 3 provinces on consecutive turns (i.e. 6 provinces across 2 turns) when the other player has barely started greening yet, maybe has 2 loots and afforded a province or two.  This happens all the time, a wide disparity in outcome that I just don't see as often in normal games and also don't see in Preview games that don't include loot.

Like I was saying we'll have to wait until the entire set has been out a bit and people are used to the new cards and mechanics, but my early take is that games with loot are disparate in their outcomes and basically Boon/Hexes on steroids in the extra unpredictable randomness they introduce, though of course they also add for interesting mechanics and unique abilities in a Black Market-esque way, just unfortunately not allowing for any of the same skill in adapting to them.

If there was a variant of Dominion geared towards more expert players with, say, two changes:

1) Loots, Boons, Hexes, and everything that refers to or uses them are removed from the game  (except maybe Druid and its 3 random setup boons)
2) There's an even, 50/50 chance of Black Market being in the kingdom or not.

.. that would probably make for universally better games, at least for dominion.games rated players in the range of, uh, 55+

[dirkdebeule]

Loot cards become (very) interesting for a lot of upgrade 'Remodelers', turning the Loot into Province (+1) (endgame) or Platinum/Grand Castle (+2)

[Gherald]

The funniest version of that is an opponent's Governor at the end of the game

[Commodore Chuckles]

What really weirds me out is the choice of descriptions for Trait cards. Particularly that the name of the card is always used to refer to the pile (instead of something "this pile"). This in particular leads to a confusing card text for Cheap.

It’s already messed me up a couple of posts ago when I went to say “a cheap card” and then realized that that now has a specific rules meaning in Dominion, so I had to change it to “a low-cost card”.

That's the difference between a cheap card (a card with a low cost) vs a Cheap card (a card that has the Cheap trait)

(And a Cheap card might not be cheap - a Cheap King's Court is still $6 for example!)

Hunh, also I just realized that it would have no effect on cards like Transmute or Overlord whose cost does not include coins

Well, "cheaper" was already an official Dominion term since it appeared on at least 2 cards (Border Village and Lich).

[faust]

Definitive Loot tier list:

S Tier: Figurehead, Sword
A Tier: Spell Scroll, Jewels, Prize Goat
B Tier: Amphora, Puzzle Box, Staff, Insignia
C Tier: Hammer, Orb, Shield
D Tier: Doubloons, Sextant
F Tier: Endless Chalice

[GendoIkari]

Giving Loot-gainers a type would have required either not doing events and traits that give you loot or introducing dual-type landscapes, which we've never seen.

Spoiler…?

I have no knowledge of such a thing, but it's a possibility.

Doesn't seem like much of a possibility though... Loot is clearly pretty powerful and not easy to get. Hard to imagine how a Trait could cause an ordinary cheap pile like Village to suddenly give out a Loot without making that card way overpowered. And you can't really go with something like "if you have 3 ___ cards in play, gain a loot", because then it doesn't really work with expensive terminals and such.

Shut up. 

[Gherald]

Funny how in other conversations people were wondering how a trait could be negative and give out a curse or something like that without being too weakening. Now we know =)

[Valendale]

I love how each of the loots manages to be unique and flavorful.

[villafan001]

I'm surprised that Cheap exists: If most kingdom cards are designed to be as cheap as possible without breaking things, making a card still cheaper unconditionally should be problematic. Especially when it turns a strong $5 card like Witch into a $4...

Seems a bit like Chapel... a card far too good for its cost that breaks the normal rules of things. It may be broken if it were automatically in every game, but instead it just means that games that have it play out differently than normal games of Dominion.

But for every situation like that, there’s another mediocre card which at $1 cheaper suddenly becomes an entirely different proposition. These Traits are great - just like Landmarks, they force experienced players to analyse cards / types / the game in a new way.

[villafan001]

What really weirds me out is the choice of descriptions for Trait cards. Particularly that the name of the card is always used to refer to the pile (instead of something "this pile"). This in particular leads to a confusing card text for Cheap.

It’s already messed me up a couple of posts ago when I went to say “a cheap card” and then realized that that now has a specific rules meaning in Dominion, so I had to change it to “a low-cost card”.

Applying usual conventions of capitalising defined terms, this should be fine.

[ehunt]

Definitive Loot tier list:

S Tier: Figurehead, Sword
A Tier: Spell Scroll, Jewels, Prize Goat
B Tier: Amphora, Puzzle Box, Staff, Insignia
C Tier: Hammer, Orb, Shield
D Tier: Doubloons, Sextant
F Tier: Endless Chalice

interesting looking back on this. i think i agree if you have ample + buy alread.

It does seem though that on many boards you are just desperate for the loots with +buy, which elevates chalice/sextant/shield/orb in your rankings and downgrades spell scroll/figurehead/insignia. Goat and Hammer are situational. I think Insignia tops my least-likely-to-be-useful list.

[DaveColMD]

Having now played several games involving loot, my take is loot is just like Black Market. It's luck of the draw. If you get the better ones, it is to your advantage. If you get the lesser ones, it is to your disadvantage. Totally random. Not my favorite way to determine the outcome of a game. I have gotten spanked in games where we both had loots, but my opponent had the better ones.
It takes away strategy and turns a game into luck of the draw.

[faust]

Definitive Loot tier list:

S Tier: Figurehead, Sword
A Tier: Spell Scroll, Jewels, Prize Goat
B Tier: Amphora, Puzzle Box, Staff, Insignia
C Tier: Hammer, Orb, Shield
D Tier: Doubloons, Sextant
F Tier: Endless Chalice

interesting looking back on this. i think i agree if you have ample + buy alread.

It does seem though that on many boards you are just desperate for the loots with +buy, which elevates chalice/sextant/shield/orb in your rankings and downgrades spell scroll/figurehead/insignia. Goat and Hammer are situational. I think Insignia tops my least-likely-to-be-useful list.

Yeah I think a lot depends on how you're gaining your Loot. There are plenty of ways where you'll just keep amassing more Loot, so you'll have plenty of +Buy eventually. But in some cases the Loot is harder to come by and you might really need some +Buy from the first Loot you gain.

I would say the Looters where it can be critical to get the +Buy are Peril, Foray, Invasion and the Cursed Trait, and to a lesser extent Search.

[segura]

Having now played several games involving loot, my take is loot is just like Black Market. It's luck of the draw. If you get the better ones, it is to your advantage. If you get the lesser ones, it is to your disadvantage. Totally random. Not my favorite way to determine the outcome of a game. I have gotten spanked in games where we both had loots, but my opponent had the better ones.
It takes away strategy and turns a game into luck of the draw.

Indeed. An early Chalice or Goat is often game deciding. One or two Loots in a row without an extra Buy can be an auto-loss.

The Loot gainers are well done and interesting, Loot itself is not.

[allanfieldhouse]

Yeah, I really wish they just all gave you a Buy. Is Insignia really too overpowered with that extra Buy? Fine, make it +$2 instead. I don't really care, just give me the Buy!

All of the Knights have the trashing attack, and all of the Loots should have a Buy.

[villafan001]

Having now played several games involving loot, my take is loot is just like Black Market. It's luck of the draw. If you get the better ones, it is to your advantage. If you get the lesser ones, it is to your disadvantage. Totally random. Not my favorite way to determine the outcome of a game. I have gotten spanked in games where we both had loots, but my opponent had the better ones.
It takes away strategy and turns a game into luck of the draw.

Indeed. An early Chalice or Goat is often game deciding. One or two Loots in a row without an extra Buy can be an auto-loss.

The Loot gainers are well done and interesting, Loot itself is not.

Playing IRL 2-player you can house-rule workaround this pretty easily. Split the Loots into 2 identical sets of 15, and as and when you gain a Loot, you choose (like Prizes with Tournament) which to gain. Makes for some quite interesting decisions as the relative value of some of the Loots varies considerably depending on what else is in the Kingdom.

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This is a significant buff that might make them too strong. Also bottleneck issues. Kingdom with no thrashers, Alice gains the two Goats, game over.

[villafan001]

This is a significant buff that might make them too strong. Also bottleneck issues. Kingdom with no thrashers, Alice gains the two Goats, game over.

That’s why you’d certainly separate the piles if you’re doing it that way. Agree that the random chance element will have been factored into the card design, it’s something that people like more or less I suppose. I mean, if you’re playing Dominion in the first place you’ve bought in to the concept that there is significant luck involved, but I can see for some people that there comes a line where luck has the potential to overtake skill.

I’m not really sure that 15 unique cards were really needed with the Loot concept, seems to me that it would have been just as interesting with fewer (and then you might have printing room for more copies). I don’t play very often with more than 2P but if Prize Goat is your only trashing option then I could well believe a lot of 3P games end up with a huge imbalance.