Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[scolapasta]

Does anyone think yesterday ending so quickly was weird? I mean, No exile was the right thing to do, but why not allow time for discussion?

We can't do anything during the night, scum can, so any information we could have generated by discussing yesterday instead of today would have strictly benefited scum.

I get your point and if there were any PRs I would agree.

But in a game with only vanilla roles, I don't think it really matters which of us scum target from a "who's left" perspective, while evaluating the NK as a reaction to that discussion could be.

Wait why are you saying this you literally voted no exile yesterday and made the complete opposite argument.

Not sure where you get that I made an opposite argument?

[MiX]

I guess I misinterpreted your D3 post...

Basically people don't vote no exile when you want a discussion because voting no exile means you don't want a discussion. So by voting no exile I assumed you didn't want a discussion. You even said things like "why wait until tomorrow" and "it's clearly the best vote".

[Awaclus]

I think in a vanilla game like we are now, it could've helped town as well.

There is literally not even a hypothetical way in which it could have helped town without scum letting it happen.

[WestCoastDidds]

My thinking is that the odd number benefits town, and it eliminates the risk of a missexile. I recognize that we could have possibly eliminated a baddie, but we’d have needed five to exile and with two baddies that doesn’t seem likely. I can see why scum would be anti-no exile but I’m not sure why town would be.

[scolapasta]

I guess I misinterpreted your D3 post...

Basically people don't vote no exile when you want a discussion because voting no exile means you don't want a discussion. So by voting no exile I assumed you didn't want a discussion. You even said things like "why wait until tomorrow" and "it's clearly the best vote".

OK - I get that, and it sounds like that's also where Awaclus is coming from. My no exile vote wasn't a "I don't want more discussion", I just wanted to improve our odds for today's exile and saw lots of votes flying by. My "tomorrow" was meant to mean the game's "tomorrow", not real world tomorrow.

But I hear what you and Awaclus are saying. I'm still not sure I agree, but I'll have to meditate on that a little more. The "I want to solve this game" side of me feels I could've used that info to improve my scum reads - and I do stand by my "I don't really think it matters any more who scum NK" argument.

I'm happy to retract my vote for now:

Unvote

Let me ask something else then: how come no one else suggested no exile until I did?

[Awaclus]

Let me ask something else then: how come no one else suggested no exile until I did?

I'm just not used to thinking about it until MeLo, since with PRs in the game, it's generally good to delay it as long as possible in case a night kill fails or something.

[Swowl]

Vote Count 4.1

Mathdude (1): Awaclus
Not Voting (6): gkrieg, scolapasta, MiX, mathdude, WCD, Joth

With 7 alive it takes 4 to Exile.
Day 4 starts now and ends Tuesday, March 14th at 8:45pm Forum Time.

[mathdude]

Sorry for the lack of posts. I'll try to respond to a couple things by tonight.

[WestCoastDidds]

I’m feeling kind of stymied by the lack of anything from anyone.

Swowl, if they haven’t checked in when you do a VC, will you please prod Joth and gkrieg?

[MiX]

You can reread mathdude and vote him, that would be nice. Alternatively you can read Awaclus and see if he's town or scum. I think that's the two main questions this game.

[MiX]

Also I am townlocking Didds for that post. If you have a problem, please present me a bad Didds post.

[WestCoastDidds]

I did the reread! I’m fully on board with voting for Math or gkrieg. I’m less suspicious of Awaclus, Scola, and you. No idea about Joth.

[Awaclus]

Alternatively you can read Awaclus and see if he's town or scum.

I just re-read his role QT and came to the conclusion that he's town.

[mathdude]

Well, after a reread of LL, I don't see a whole lot there.  He basically re-read Joseph, said it seems to point to me, and had stuck with voting for me ever since.  He expressed suspicion of Awaclus "before he did the reread".  He then also voted EFHW to make sure we got an exile and he posted when the thread was locked.

If I was scum (SM), I just couldn't justify to myself to take out someone who points so directly at me.  And if I was traitor (I believe his death was before recruitment, right?) - I would hope/assume the SM would be smart enough to bus me for town-cred than to try and recruit me and waste a kill.  But I'm neither of those.  So either someone else had a different reason to kill LL (maybe he was one of the more town-read?)... or maybe someone realized it would be pretty easy to use a reread of LL to point to exiling me next.

[jotheonah]

I just realized I forgot about this game because of the quick succession nights. Will catch up tomorrow.

[mathdude]

Anyway, on a more serious note, having reread LaLight, vote: math seems sensible.

This seems very opportunistic, given my previous post.  Would scum be so bold as to immediately throw this on the table?  Ordinarily, I expect scum would wait for someone else to raise the issue, then they would support it.  But I think Awaclus believes he's sufficiently out-of-the-radar (and also just bold enough anyway) that he could get away with this start-of-day prompt even if he is scum.

[mathdude]

Are you trying to get the "easy kill" on me, so you can move on to Ex-LO tomorrow?

No, it's just that the case I made against an EFHW/you team was a good case and a lot of it still applies to you with someone else being the SM, and now that it's just a vanilla game, there's no benefit to trying to get your partner exiled before you. Unless you have any convincing arguments why you aren't scum instead of just throwing accusations at everyone who votes for you.

I have no convincing arguments for why I am NOT scum.  I know just as little in this game as basically everyone else.  I have thrown out some thoughts and some votes.  I have poked and prodded.  And I have admitted that I have no idea who to target in this game.  I'm terrible at vanilla games because I can't read any of you at all.

So if that makes me scummy, then vote me out.  Then the record can finally show you that your tunneling is wrong.

[mathdude]

I think in a vanilla game like we are now, it could've helped town as well.

There is literally not even a hypothetical way in which it could have helped town without scum letting it happen.

Prolonging yesterday's discussions could have helped town.  I agree, it also could have helped scum.  But I think you're completely wrong in saying there was no way it could have helped town.

Consider one case - what if we all posted a scum-to-chum list?  Yes, scum would then have all that info and might make a better night choice.  But then their night choice becomes WIFOM, depending on whether they kill a strong town-read, or someone who's tunneling one of them, or someone who's tunneling a townie to frame them, or something else.  But on the other hand, we would know exactly what LL's scum-to-chum list is today.  We would even be able to compare yesterday's lists to how any of them might change today.

Now I'm not saying that giving those lists would have been a good choice yesterday.  I'm just saying that putting information into public has the ability to help town, even if it may help scum in some way as well.

Are you just being stubborn Awaclus?  Or are you intentionally trying to direct this game in a way that best benefits you and your scum-buddy?

[mathdude]

My thinking is that the odd number benefits town, and it eliminates the risk of a missexile. I recognize that we could have possibly eliminated a baddie, but we’d have needed five to exile and with two baddies that doesn’t seem likely. I can see why scum would be anti-no exile but I’m not sure why town would be.

In a purely vanilla game, the numbers did definitely agree with a "no exile".  But whether it should have happened yesterday or today, I'm now starting to question the idea.

Yesterday would have been harder to exile a scum.  We would have needed 5 of 8 votes... which is 5 of the 6 townies.  Today, we need 4 of 7 votes (which is 4 of 5 townies).  We still need all town except one... but we (each individual townie) needs to get 3 others to agree with us in voting today, where yesterday we needed 4 others to agree.  So by this perspective, getting back to an odd number quickly does seem helpful.

But what if we had prolonged the day yesterday, rather than cutting it short?  And what if we actually did try to get an exile off yesterday, rather than jumping straight to "no exile"?  Bounce ideas back and forth.  Try a wagon or two.  See where people are voting.  See if some people are eager to jump on any wagon or hesitant.  And if we didn't get anywhere, then near the actual end of day, we could swing back to "no exile".  Then today, we would have all kinds more information to analyze.  But we're still sticking (at least mildly, at the moment) to the initial D1 thoughts of "let's vote out mathdude".

All this being said, I don't think any of this points back to yesterday to say a "quick-hammer" of no exile is scummy.  I think it was general consensus that we want to get back to an odd number of players in a vanilla game.  (In hind sight now, and especially for any future vanilla games, I think this is definitely something to consider though - don't just quickly go "no exile"!)

[MiX]

Theory is cool how about you make a scum to chum list so we can look at it after we exile you.

[mathdude]

I’m feeling kind of stymied by the lack of anything from anyone.

Swowl, if they haven’t checked in when you do a VC, will you please prod Joth and gkrieg?

I think we all have been stymied by this.  And yesterday's quick end didn't help, as I've just explained.  It cut off any discussions that could have happened.

Also I am townlocking Didds for that post. If you have a problem, please present me a bad Didds post.

That post is enough to townlock Didds for you?  Wow, you're easy to convince!  Didds posted something that we were all thinking, and was just the first to put it into words.

However, that still doesn't mean I can present you with a "bad Didds post".

[mathdude]

You can reread mathdude and vote him, that would be nice. Alternatively you can read Awaclus and see if he's town or scum. I think that's the two main questions this game.

There... now you and others have more to "reread".  I've finally posted a few thoughts.

Alternatively you can read Awaclus and see if he's town or scum.

I just re-read his role QT and came to the conclusion that he's town.

You sure are clever.  If only we could take your word on this.

[mathdude]

Theory is cool how about you make a scum to chum list so we can look at it after we exile you.

My list alone will probably be pretty useless.  I admit I have very weak reads this game.  On top of that, I know I will have a slightly biased scum-read towards those who target me the most (I always do).

I assume it would be better to do this closer to the deadline, rather than this early in the day.  Let's let gk and joth actually contribute to this day - otherwise their places in the list will be quite meaningless (if they were even put in the list).  But if I am up for exile, I trust someone would post an intent-to-hammer, and give time for me to post such a list, rather than a quick-hammer (which would be very scummy).

[WestCoastDidds]

Well, after a reread of LL, I don't see a whole lot there.  He basically re-read Joseph, said it seems to point to me, and had stuck with voting for me ever since.  He expressed suspicion of Awaclus "before he did the reread".  He then also voted EFHW to make sure we got an exile and he posted when the thread was locked.

If I was scum (SM), I just couldn't justify to myself to take out someone who points so directly at me.  And if I was traitor (I believe his death was before recruitment, right?) - I would hope/assume the SM would be smart enough to bus me for town-cred than to try and recruit me and waste a kill.  But I'm neither of those.  So either someone else had a different reason to kill LL (maybe he was one of the more town-read?)... or maybe someone realized it would be pretty easy to use a reread of LL to point to exiling me next.

I fully believe he LL got axed because he posted in the thread. It seems to me like that was something only town would do. No reread of him necessary.

I’m also not sure how your time line is messed up. It makes me wonder if it’s purposeful or just too hard to keep all of the (your) whacking and recruiting straight.
D1 no exile
N1 Joseph whacked
D2 EFHW exiled
N2 no nk (presumably traitor recruited)
D3 no exile to get to an odd number
N3 LL whacked
D4 is today

[jotheonah]

I haven't had time for a reread and may not.

Town is small enough now that a towncore approach appeals.

Right now I'm strongly townreading MiX and Didds. Awaclus too, though I'm a bit more wary there. That leaves scum somewhere in scola, gkrieg, or mathdude. I definitely get the sense that gkrieg and mathdude are both people who've had multiple wagons on them that didn't stick, which normally would be scummy, but given the nature of this game it may not be (since there was effectively 1 scum the first couple days).

I think it's a little odd that the day opening post didn't actual identify the night's victim. Can we get confirmation that LaLight was killed by scum rather than modkilled?