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Author Topic: How does black market affect cards?  (Read 9147 times)

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O

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How does black market affect cards?
« on: April 03, 2012, 10:54:43 pm »
+5

Black Market has one of the most love/hate relationships with players on Isotropic. (OK, mostly hate.) The random swinginess of the card can be devastating: pulling a mountebank turn 3 in an otherwise BM game is devastating.

Whether black market is worth buying is entirely dependent on the cards in the deck. Sometimes, however, a kind-of-reverse-effect occurs: drawing it from the black market (or simply the existence of black market) makes the card more or less desirable. There are different "levels" in which Black Market can affect a card. The following incomplete list is my attempt at a categorization; feel free to suggest/add.

Concrete improvement: The actual limitations of the card are changed uniquely (relatively) by Black Market:
--Mandarin
--Mint

Competitive Improvement: Their effects become more powerful because you no longer have to worry about the competition of your opponent.

--Tournament (no competition for Prizes)
--Ambassador (One way to win the ambassador war? have your opponent have no ambassadors..)
--Lone Cursers (There are no curse-givers in the supply; you now have free reign to distribute all ten)

Black-Market Improvement: These cards don't necessarily improve from being in the BM deck, but are generally improved because of the inclusion of Black Market in a deck:

--All of Cornucopia (OK... not really.. But Fairgrounds, Menagerie, Fairgrounds, Horn of Plenty, Fairgrounds, Hunting Party to an extent, Fairgrounds, etc.)
-Tactician
-Draw to ___ cards (watchtower, library, jack, occasionally minion)

Neutral Effect: These cards powers don't really change whether found in the BM deck/game, even though you might be ecstatic to find them in the deck:

-Majority of cards, including cursers when there is other cursing on the board.

Negative Delay Effect: Cards that you are less likely to want from the Black Market deck due to the delay in obtaining them.
-Some trashers (trading post, chapel, steward, remake, not Remodel, Expand, Forge)
-Possession/Golem (by the time you pull them out of the deck...)
-I'm sure i'm missing some here.

Single Card negative effects: Cards that you are less likely to only want one of:

Minion
Potion-cost cards
Duke
Hunting party (still good, just not great)
Bridge
Highway
Ill Gotten Gains
Torturer

Degenerate Cards: Waste of BM deck space.
Fools Gold
Treasure Map
Peddler
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 01:31:06 am by O »
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AJD

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Re: How does black market affect cards?
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2012, 11:10:24 pm »
0

Degenerate Cards: Waste of BM deck space.
Fools Gold
Treasure Map

Also Peddler.
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O

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Re: How does black market affect cards?
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2012, 11:24:16 pm »
0

Degenerate Cards: Waste of BM deck space.
Fools Gold
Treasure Map

Also Peddler.

Yerp, forgot that. Added in
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Axxle

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Re: How does black market affect cards?
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2012, 11:26:42 pm »
0

Single Card negative effects: Cards that you are less likely to only want one of:

Minion
Potion-cost cards
Duke
Hunting party (still good, just not great)
Bridge
Highway
I would add IGG to this.

Degenerate Cards: Waste of BM deck space.
Fools Gold
Treasure Map

Also Peddler.
I'd probably add Duchess to this list... and Black Market. I have never seen anyone buy that from the BM deck!  ;D
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We might be from all over the world, but "we all talk this one language  : +1 card + 1 action +1 buy , gain , discard, trash... " - RTT

O

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Re: How does black market affect cards?
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2012, 11:35:56 pm »
+2


I'd probably add Duchess to this list... and Black Market. I have never seen anyone buy that from the BM deck!  ;D

10$ for Duchess+Province in certain games? Degenerate has to be really, really degenerate (OK.. you can buy fools gold to trash for a Gold... shut up)

and...



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Piemaster

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Re: How does black market affect cards?
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2012, 01:13:50 am »
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Can you pull Black Market from Black Market?  The card says one of each Kingdom card not in the supply.
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jonts26

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Re: How does black market affect cards?
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2012, 01:18:06 am »
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You can pull Black Market from the Black Market, but you have to cheat to do so. That's typically frowned upon.
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Robz888

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Re: How does black market affect cards?
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2012, 01:21:46 am »
0

Really great list.

I might add Goons/Monument/Bishop to Competitive Improvement. Being the only person with a card that yields virtual VP when played is a pretty big deal, I think.
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O

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Re: How does black market affect cards?
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2012, 01:27:43 am »
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Really great list.

I might add Goons/Monument/Bishop to Competitive Improvement. Being the only person with a card that yields virtual VP when played is a pretty big deal, I think.

I didn't include these because they aren't really *altered* by the black market. I mean, it can be lovely to pull a T3 chapel from the BM, but that's more because chapel was great in that game anyways, not because of the black market. The same is true with these VP cards.

Goons actually suffers a bit because you want to stack goons.
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blueblimp

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Re: How does black market affect cards?
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2012, 01:28:10 am »
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King's Court and Throne Room combo decently with Black Market. For example, I'd include Torturer in "single card negative effects", but if KC is available, KC'ing a single Torturer is pretty scary.
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tlloyd

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Re: How does black market affect cards?
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2012, 03:29:24 am »
0

Degenerate Cards: Waste of BM deck space.
Fools Gold
Treasure Map
Peddler

I would suggest that most potion-cost cards are in this list. Unless there are potion-cost cards in the Kingdom, it's almost never worth buying a potion in the hopes of pulling a potion-cost card from the black market. (although I did get a lone Familiar that way once, which really annoyed my opponent)
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O

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Re: How does black market affect cards?
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2012, 03:37:34 am »
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Degenerate Cards: Waste of BM deck space.
Fools Gold
Treasure Map
Peddler

I would suggest that most potion-cost cards are in this list. Unless there are potion-cost cards in the Kingdom, it's almost never worth buying a potion in the hopes of pulling a potion-cost card from the black market. (although I did get a lone Familiar that way once, which really annoyed my opponent)

I thought Iso had it so potion costs were only in BM if they were in the game.
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verikt

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Re: How does black market affect cards?
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2012, 06:17:35 am »
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Quote
Whether black market is worth buying is entirely dependent on the cards in the deck.
I strongly disagree. BM is very useful in a deck with tactician, minion, library or watchtower. Any deck where you want to get your money out of hand and keep it. Even if there are no cards worth buying.
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tlloyd

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Re: How does black market affect cards?
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2012, 06:51:54 am »
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Quote
Whether black market is worth buying is entirely dependent on the cards in the deck.
I strongly disagree. BM is very useful in a deck with tactician, minion, library or watchtower. Any deck where you want to get your money out of hand and keep it. Even if there are no cards worth buying.

The OP implicitly made this point in his discussion of the "Black Market Improvement" category.
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tlloyd

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Re: How does black market affect cards?
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2012, 06:52:43 am »
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Degenerate Cards: Waste of BM deck space.
Fools Gold
Treasure Map
Peddler

I would suggest that most potion-cost cards are in this list. Unless there are potion-cost cards in the Kingdom, it's almost never worth buying a potion in the hopes of pulling a potion-cost card from the black market. (although I did get a lone Familiar that way once, which really annoyed my opponent)

I thought Iso had it so potion costs were only in BM if they were in the game.

I can't say for sure, but I seem to recall plenty of games where the only potion-cost cards available were in the BM deck.
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DG

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Re: How does black market affect cards?
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2012, 09:15:27 am »
+1

Quarry, King's Court, and Throne work notable well with Black Market in the deck. Swindler and Saboteur can do irreparable damage attacking black market cards. The jester can draw a blank when it finds black market cards.

All terminal actions are slightly weaker since they might clash with the black market. Taking too many terminals from the black market is the typical way that games are lost using black market. All village cards are slightly stronger as they might enable you to play all your black market goodies.

Alternative victory cards can be weak in the black market deck since you can't build a strategy for just one of them and you might turn down an opportunity to buy a promising vp card at the wrong time.

Moneylender could be another trasher you don't often want late game. Apprentice and Salvager could be two trashers you do want for the late game.
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mnavratil

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Re: How does black market affect cards?
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2012, 10:05:59 am »
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I think Tactician should be in the concrete improvement category. Playing money during the action phase fundamentally changes the way you use tactician, and makes its drawbacks (losing your current hand) go away.
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RisingJaguar

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Re: How does black market affect cards?
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2012, 10:31:13 am »
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I think Tactician should be in the concrete improvement category. Playing money during the action phase fundamentally changes the way you use tactician, and makes its drawbacks (losing your current hand) go away.
BUT does it really change when you only have one tactician? If you can consistently draw out your deck (or else this trick is rather useless), I'm not sure if tactician becomes a significant improvement.
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RisingJaguar

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Re: How does black market affect cards?
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2012, 10:40:53 am »
+1

Degenerate Cards: Waste of BM deck space.
Fools Gold
Treasure Map
Peddler

I would suggest that most potion-cost cards are in this list. Unless there are potion-cost cards in the Kingdom, it's almost never worth buying a potion in the hopes of pulling a potion-cost card from the black market. (although I did get a lone Familiar that way once, which really annoyed my opponent)

I thought Iso had it so potion costs were only in BM if they were in the game.
Pretty sure this is correct. 
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kn1tt3r

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Re: How does black market affect cards?
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2012, 10:49:11 am »
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I think Tactician should be in the concrete improvement category. Playing money during the action phase fundamentally changes the way you use tactician, and makes its drawbacks (losing your current hand) go away.
BUT does it really change when you only have one tactician? If you can consistently draw out your deck (or else this trick is rather useless), I'm not sure if tactician becomes a significant improvement.
I think it changes especially for Tactician, because it's a card you usually only want 1-2 copies of.
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RisingJaguar

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Re: How does black market affect cards?
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2012, 11:10:54 am »
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I think Tactician should be in the concrete improvement category. Playing money during the action phase fundamentally changes the way you use tactician, and makes its drawbacks (losing your current hand) go away.
BUT does it really change when you only have one tactician? If you can consistently draw out your deck (or else this trick is rather useless), I'm not sure if tactician becomes a significant improvement.
I think it changes especially for Tactician, because it's a card you usually only want 1-2 copies of.
The situation that tactcian gets a boost in (for having black market) generally needs two.  For all other situations, I agree getting the only tactician is an upgrade.
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timchen

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Re: How does black market affect cards?
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2012, 11:31:02 am »
0

Anyone can tell me how does the black market affect Mint?
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jonts26

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Re: How does black market affect cards?
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2012, 11:47:04 am »
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It lets you selectively play the treasures you want to trash, then play the rest for your normal buy phase.
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jomini

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Re: How does black market affect cards?
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2012, 12:00:43 pm »
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Quote
I didn't include these because they aren't really *altered* by the black market. I mean, it can be lovely to pull a T3 chapel from the BM, but that's more because chapel was great in that game anyways, not because of the black market. The same is true with these VP cards.

Goons actually suffers a bit because you want to stack goons.
Not entirely true. If you have chip cards and the opponents don't, you can adopt a long game strategy that is not open to the other players. For instance, let's say I buy bishop out of the black market deck after my opponent has raced ahead to a 2 province lead in our chapeled decks (say we are both going for menage decks). Before this I would have to make that up buy purchasing 13 more VP than the opponent at some point before the decks run out. Now, I can build an ever more efficient deck and bishop a gold (as long as I can play BM/silver/copper/bishop I can replace this) and gain 4 VP a turn whilst my opponent's deck crashes and sputters. Every turn he spends cleaning out the duchy pile (no +buy assumption) means I make up another point of my deficit.

But what if we both could get bishop? Well he could start using his bishop on provinces and I'd likely be behind as I have to spend an extra turn or two getting up to province trashing. Being able to be the only player playing with an unlimited point horizon drastically changes the game. Likewise, monument can do the same (particularly with TR or KC).

Quote
BUT does it really change when you only have one tactician? If you can consistently draw out your deck (or else this trick is rather useless), I'm not sure if tactician becomes a significant improvement.
Yes. Having BM/tactician means that you can buy some engine component (like village, haven, cellar, etc.) AND have the mega turn next turn if you put it into an engine. Being the only one able to play a +buy can also be insanely huge late game, perhaps even more important than having assured province from a 10 card hand when you reach the late game.

So on both sides of the coin, I say this works well. BM can allow you to use a few coins AND to play tactician that turn - this can be quite huge if you shoehorn a tac into a draw engine. When coming from the BM deck, tac may give you the only +buy in the game and perhaps also the only +action (say allowing you to play double torturer).

Which leads me to another thing that can be huge to get out of the BM deck- another +buy. In a game without +buy, getting woodcutters out of the BM deck can vastly increase your odds of winning.

I would also dispute that peddler is a degenerate card. It's cost is normally prohibitive, but if you can bring down the price enough (say with quarries, bridges, or highways) then it can be a fine purchase as a singleton. Fools gold can work if you have reached the province buying stage and expect to insta-upgrade it to gold (particularly if you can get it for near free with highway or bridge).

Another set of cards I'd put in are all discarding attack cards. Having the only militia/ghost ship/goons/etc. is pretty huge in that you can now do things like gov/council rooom chaining and not pay the full price for so doing. Even without that, there are some types of engines that let you hit the attack reliably, but only if you have a decent number of cards. E.g. cross roads/great hall/IW/village (any) can draw huge hands and cycle you through to your militia. Dropping down to three cards really hurts that engine. Likewise, engines that use heavy cellar (e.g. cross roads/cellar/village/draw) are much less likely to draw through if they start with 2 fewer cards. Then there is the nastiness of discard/masquerade.

Which is also another biggee to get out of the BM deck. Masquerade can function as a curser in some decks (gain a curse, draw it with your engine, pass it to the other guy, lather rinse repeat), it can allow you to pass & trash (e.g. you've been losing the cursing war), and it can allow you to steal the odd VP card late game (in a green enough game that lasts long enough, you will eventually be able to swap a copper for a duchy because the other guy will have no other option).
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timchen

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Re: How does black market affect cards?
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2012, 12:20:35 pm »
0

It lets you selectively play the treasures you want to trash, then play the rest for your normal buy phase.

Quite a concrete improvement...
I can hardly see when this will matter, even limited to the case when you do want to use mint to trash and do happen to draw Mint from the BM early enough. It basically just adds a buy (and $2 from the BM; but a fair comparison probably should be with some other +2 coin card) with whatever treasure you left.
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