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Author Topic: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)  (Read 4694 times)

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DaveColMD

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+4

As with any changes, some are liked, some aren't.

I was disappointed with some of the cards that were removed.
I generally like most of the new cards. Some create some interesting new interactions.

The one thing they did was make these 3 sets a bit more complicated. There are more things to think about, thus potentially slowing a game down. This is especially true when playing the table version where you don't get prompted like online. While this is may not be that big of an issue for the experienced player, for the new and inexperienced player, this makes a game slower and harder to learn.

When I try to get new players interested in the game, I start with the Base and Intrigue. Those are all simple and straight forward cards. The next set I introduced was Seaside, then Prosperity, then Hinterlands. They all introduced 1 or 2 new concepts that could be easily grasped. Seaside, duration cards that did 1 thing for another turn. Prosperity, treasures that did things, victory tokens, and platinum/colony. Hinterlands, on buy/on gain.

Now in each of these cards have been added that do multiple things and add complexity.

In Seaside: Monkey, Blockade, Sailor, Tidepools,  Corsair, Pirate, and Sea Witch.
In Prosperity: Clerk, Investment, Tiara, Charlatan, and Crystal Ball.
In Hinterlands: Guard Dog, Trail, Weaver, Souk, Witch's Hut (wording is confusing).

These add concepts and options to mull that are not simple to the newbie. It's easy to miss the interactions when playing at the table. For example, forgetting that Sailor gets an extra card for each one they player prior gained. Blockade, missing that a player bought the blockaded card. Pirate, missing that a player bought a treasure so you can play it immediately. Sea Witch forgetting that 2 cards have to be discarded on the next turn. Trail forgetting that it can be played when gained, discarded or trashed. Weaver forgetting it can be played when discarded. Clerk, missing that each other player topdecks a card from their hand, or forgetting it doesn't cost an action to play it from your initial hand. Collection, forgetting you get points for buying action cards. Having to keep track of all that or having to figure out the best way to use a card (Tiara, Tidepool, Investment).

It means there is more I have to help keep track of and when you are playing a multiplayer game, it becomes difficult to catch everything as well as play your hand.

I know all these cards won't be in any given kingdom and yes, I realize I can omit complex cards from a game for newbies and even use the v1 cards. But my object is to bring them along slowly introducing new concepts. Now there are more complex interactions to introduce with these cards.
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Imrahil3

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Re: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2022, 11:24:16 am »
0

I agree very much with the general idea but less so your specific examples.

Trail I think is fine, the reaction is basically the only thing the card does, and anyways Hinterlands already had weird Reactions. Clerk is awful for new players though, thatís Adventures-level complexity in what used to be one of the best newbie sets.

Blockade sets a card aside, which is only a little less visible than Embargo tokens. Besides, the player blockading is going to be watching others pretty closely to make sure they donít forget.
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Holger

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Re: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2022, 01:27:08 pm »
+1

Blockade sets a card aside, which is only a little less visible than Embargo tokens. Besides, the player blockading is going to be watching others pretty closely to make sure they donít forget.
IMO there's a big difference in visibility: You have to physically lift the Embargo token to buy a card from that pile, so it's almost impossible to miss.
But a set-aside card lying in an opponent's area together with other cards (Blockade, sometimes other durations) is hard to remember, as usually no other cards in an opponent's area effect you during your turn.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2022, 01:30:08 pm by Holger »
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Imrahil3

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Re: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2022, 03:16:27 pm »
+1

Sure, but does your group not pay any attention to what other players are doing? Between one person wanting to not get a Curse and another person wanting to stop someone else from getting a good card unpunished, I canít imagine Blockade being forgotten all that much.
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kieranmillar

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Re: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2022, 03:42:58 pm »
+7

A lot of this strikes me as simply being less familiar with the cards that were replaced. I find it hard to imagine that you say players were forgetting to earn points from Collection, but presumably with Goons it was easier to remember, when Goons has more text and abilities on it. Collection is simpler!

I totally get forgetting about duration attacks though. I've always found those easier to forget about IRL.

I recommend maybe having players read out the text aloud when they play the card the first few times.
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arcee

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Re: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2022, 12:04:45 am »
+6

Why do you see Clerk as so complicated?  Online has it in the core levels, and it seems fine.
Quote
missing that each other player topdecks a card from their hand, or forgetting it doesn't cost an action to play it from your initial hand.
the first part is just not reading the card, and the second is not using the brain.  You can already play a card that's in your hand at start of turn, you wouldn't need that ability!

IMO there's a big difference in visibility: You have to physically lift the Embargo token to buy a card from that pile, so it's almost impossible to miss.
But a set-aside card lying in an opponent's area together with other cards (Blockade, sometimes other durations) is hard to remember, as usually no other cards in an opponent's area effect you during your turn.
.

Maybe the way here is to put your Blockade by its target.  The Blockade player should remember to get their Blockade back and the purchasers will see the Blockade in effect.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2022, 12:07:03 am by arcee »
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2022, 03:16:38 am »
+3

I think the decision to include Reactions that allow the card to play itself, and card that let you play cards outside of their intended phase was kinda dubious. But most of them were pretty simple at that. I do think that including Clerk in Prosperity 2E wasn't the best decision.

Your assessment against the Reactions is rather dumb. Reactions have a different coloring to remind that they have an additional effect. Is Moat also suddenly too complicated?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2022, 03:33:18 am by grrgrrgrr »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2022, 03:40:32 am »
+2

Mind you, "cards that let you play cards outside of their intended phase" has been in the game for a very long time; Black Market was one of the earliest cards released.
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Re: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2022, 10:24:25 am »
+3

but "cards that let you play cards outiside their intended phase" is the kind of thing that only causes problems when the game gets complicated and more effects that care about edge cases are introduced.

Imrahil3

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Re: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2022, 01:09:28 pm »
+7

Mind you, "cards that let you play cards outside of their intended phase" has been in the game for a very long time; Black Market was one of the earliest cards released.
Playing Treasures out of phase is an entirely different animal to playing Actions out of phase. Treasures do the same thing in the Action phase, but Actions in the Buy phase draw Treasures you canít always play and give you Actions that you canít usually use and are overall a mess for inexperienced players.
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Honkeyfresh

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Re: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2022, 01:53:18 pm »
+3

If it really is an issue, which I don't think it is, then you could just remove a few cards from the pool until people learn to read cards and follow their instructions.

Kind of like the card pools thing.

any game is awkward to get used to.  But nothing is going to save a player from not reading or thinking, these concepts are fairly basic.  In any sports/game, it takes a while to use savvy veteran play to get advantages through the synergy of different elements/skills.

Plus either you will be there to set em straight, or they'll likely just play through incorrectly, but for all parties, and never be any the wiser.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2022, 03:15:53 pm by Honkeyfresh »
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Donald X.

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Re: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2022, 02:44:11 pm »
+9

I can only hope that I achieved my objective of putting fairly simple cards into these sets. I still think I have. It's hard to take the OP seriously when it cites e.g. Tide Pools, an extremely simple card.

I do think that Sailor is over-the-top for Seaside; this was not missed but as you can see I decided to print it anyway.
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Honkeyfresh

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Re: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2022, 04:00:26 pm »
0

I can only hope that I achieved my objective of putting fairly simple cards into these sets. I still think I have. It's hard to take the OP seriously when it cites e.g. Tide Pools, an extremely simple card.

I do think that Sailor is over-the-top for Seaside; this was not missed but as you can see I decided to print it anyway.

Glad u did.  sailor is one of my favorite new cards.  It's really sneaky amazing.
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DaveColMD

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Re: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2022, 11:17:11 am »
0

Keep in mind I'm talking about teaching the game to newbees. Yes, Tidal Pools is simple to execute but the complexity comes in when is a good time to have it. So that is some of the complexity I am referring to. Not just the complexity of how the card works, but when it is most useful or when to avoid it. For the old cards it was more straight forward to tell them good always, rarely or never (some of those were gotten ride of - good riddance), or in combination with x. For more of these new card the answer can be only "it depends".

And yes, at the table even our group of 4 experienced players miss things. We're shuffling our deck and getting a new hand or looking at our hand trying to figure out how we want to play it or even miss leaving duration cards out when we clean up because there are lots of cards out there, had to figure out how much $ you had and what to buy, and when you clean up, you rake the cards in forgetting about duration cards or a supplies until the next turn when you wonder if you had duration cards you forgot to leave out. It happens.

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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2022, 12:04:07 am »
+1

I think the new cards are fantastic.

So far, the only card that seems like a semi-dud to me is Weaver. It's not useless, but I feel that everything it does is something that's already been done better. Discard to gain was already done by Tunnel in the same set, but gaining a flood of Golds is more fun than gaining a flood of cheap cards, and the same Tunnel can be discarded and revealed more than once per turn. Also, discard to play was already done by Village Green. And gaining two Silvers was already done by Groom.

Corsair is the other card I'm not sure about. It seems like it completely shuts down any Silver/Gold strategy, so if there's no other source of $ then you just have to rely on Corsair, which is a weak terminal $ card. I don't know. Maybe the +1 Card at the start of next turn is actually really good?

There are only two cards I will really miss. I'll miss Embassy because getting those huge hands before discarding was always fun. And I'll miss Goons because getting millions of VP for buying Coppers was fun, especially with Watchtower.

Still, on the whole I prefer a thousand times the new cards to the old ones. Strategy possibilities have increased greatly now that the boards are no longer clogged by dead spaces. Great work, Donald!
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LastFootnote

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Re: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2022, 12:09:32 am »
+6

And yes, at the table even our group of 4 experienced players miss things. We're shuffling our deck and getting a new hand or looking at our hand trying to figure out how we want to play it or even miss leaving duration cards out when we clean up because there are lots of cards out there, had to figure out how much $ you had and what to buy, and when you clean up, you rake the cards in forgetting about duration cards or a supplies until the next turn when you wonder if you had duration cards you forgot to leave out. It happens.

I recommend playing your Duration cards sideways, then turning them upright when they've fully resolved. That way it's very easy to remember to just clean up the cards that aren't sideways.

I've even started playing my Treasuries, Schemes, and Travellers sideways so that I remember they still have something left to do.
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Re: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2022, 06:46:08 am »
0

Maybe the +1 Card at the start of next turn is actually really good?

It's a Caravan.
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DaveColMD

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Re: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2022, 08:20:42 am »
+1

Just pointing out that easy things can be missed, so adding complexity increases the possibility of missing things especially for newbies.
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Re: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2022, 05:46:11 pm »
0

Maybe the +1 Card at the start of next turn is actually really good?

It's a Caravan.

It's a Caravan that needs +Action. So really, not a Caravan at all.
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Awaclus

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Re: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2022, 05:58:19 pm »
0

Maybe the +1 Card at the start of next turn is actually really good?

It's a Caravan.

It's a Caravan that needs +Action. So really, not a Caravan at all.

The +1 Card at the start of next turn doesn't require +Action other than the one you already spent on the rest of the Corsair, so it's identical to Caravan's +1 Card in that sense, and Caravan doesn't do anything other than giving that +1 Card.
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Awaclus

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Re: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2022, 10:08:14 am »
0

So if Corsair is a Caravan, Enchantress is a Double Caravan? For merely $3? Man, I gotta reevaluate that card!

Corsair is not a Caravan. Corsair's +1 Card is a Caravan.
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Re: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2022, 10:41:09 am »
+5

I can't speak to the other newly revised editions, but I've played Seaside a ton with new players IRL and I think your take on Durations specifically is wrong.

The challenge with newer players and Durations is the fact that Durations break the cadence of Dominion. It's very tough for new players to remember to not discard them at the end of their turn, to activate them at the start of the next turn, and then to discard them on the correct turn. Tricks like turning cards sideways can help, but then they have to remember to turn things sideways and, wait, what does sideways mean again?

So the best Durations for newer players are the ones that are hard to screw up. In Seaside, Tactician is the best card for newer players: it's easy to grok, no one discards it on the turn it is played, and you're darn sure you'll activate it next turn. Haven works well too, but something like Merchant Ship, while conceptually simple, can cause all kinds of problems.

Looking at the new Durations, I see 3-4 Durations that are newbie friendly, which more than doubles the current count in Seaside:

Contrary to your assertion, Blockade is fantastic on this score. Like Haven, the gained card sits under Blockade and helps you remember not to discard and to gain in hand next turn. Then the duration effect helps you keep track of when the card was active. There's a bunch of text, but the concept is simple and thematic, just like Tactician.

Pirate and Monkey (also on your list) seem to be newbie-friendly as well. They don't do anything the turn they're played, which helps you remember not to discard and the fact that they force you to pay attention to other people's turns helps you keep track of when the cards are active.

Tide Pools is borderline: it has some similarities to Tactician, but, since the benefit is front-loaded, I can see it being harder to remember when it did what.

The rest are trickier for newer players, but not for the reasons you suggest. Astrolabe is simple, but it's very tricky to keep track of. With Corsair, the fact that trashing happens after the Treasure provides money can be tricky for new players. Sailor is just a complex card and Sea Witch, well, I wouldn't play Witch with new players so Sea Witch is out on that front alone.

I've played Seaside with new players countless times and I've never heard anyone complain about the issue you brought up (different effects on different turns). That sounds like the sort of problem that someone who knows the game well would just assume newer players might have.

Also, that your concern with Tide Pools is that it's hard to explain to newer players the correct strategy for the card makes me think we have different approaches to playing with new players overall. I don't didactically explain how to play every card. I'll clear up any rules questions and give some pithy summary for certain cards (Tactician: lose a turn to get a mega turn) but otherwise let them explore and learn while I attempt stupid Dominion tricks on my turns.
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Imrahil3

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Re: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2022, 10:51:11 am »
+3

I donít think Pirate is great for new players because itís a really unexpected reaction. Reactions were 99% focused on deflecting Attacks until Hinterlands, I believe. The one Reaction that did not explicitly respond to attacks was Watchtower, but Watchtower can essentially only respond to junking attacks until you get to cards like Cache or Ball.

Itís not bad, but I think it does mess up an otherwise smooth continuity of learning Reactions.

Tide Pools is definitely fine. Itís no worse for new players than Chapel, imo. Yeah, some more newbie is going to burn a couple turns playing too many Tide Pools, but how many of us flooded our decks with terminal actions and swamped ourselves while learning the game?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2022, 11:34:50 am by Imrahil3 »
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Re: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2022, 03:55:51 pm »
0

So if Corsair is a Caravan, Enchantress is a Double Caravan? For merely $3? Man, I gotta reevaluate that card!

Corsair is not a Caravan. Corsair's +1 Card is a Caravan.
Donít worry, I knew what you meant. You even quoted the exact phrase you were responding to for Chucklesí assessment.
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GendoIkari

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Re: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2022, 11:42:47 am »
+4

Keep in mind I'm talking about teaching the game to newbees. Yes, Tidal Pools is simple to execute but the complexity comes in when is a good time to have it. So that is some of the complexity I am referring to. Not just the complexity of how the card works, but when it is most useful or when to avoid it. For the old cards it was more straight forward to tell them good always, rarely or never (some of those were gotten ride of - good riddance), or in combination with x. For more of these new card the answer can be only "it depends".

Well this seems like a different complaint, one that's seems like a very weird thing to complain about. That's not complexity, that's depth of strategy. Why should new players need to be told whether a card is good or not? Clearly the whole fun of the game for a new player is in making that determination for themselves and then either being proven right or wrong. There in no way at all that I can see "it's not obvious how good this card is" as a drawback for any card for any new players.

Quote
And yes, at the table even our group of 4 experienced players miss things. We're shuffling our deck and getting a new hand or looking at our hand trying to figure out how we want to play it or even miss leaving duration cards out when we clean up because there are lots of cards out there, had to figure out how much $ you had and what to buy, and when you clean up, you rake the cards in forgetting about duration cards or a supplies until the next turn when you wonder if you had duration cards you forgot to leave out. It happens.

Yes and my group has on multiple occasions accidentally shuffled in a newly-played duration card during cleanup. That's not an issue with any new cards; that's an issue with duration cards as a whole. *Edit* I saw your other reply where you addressed this; I understand what you mean now.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2022, 11:53:21 am by GendoIkari »
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