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Author Topic: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"  (Read 9607 times)

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Cuzz

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #50 on: June 08, 2022, 09:07:26 am »
+3

I'm wondering why Dark Ages needs a second edition. That feels like a solid set with almost no duds. I'm struggling to think of a single card in the set that feels like it needs replacing actually, despite it being a very large set.
I agree that the set is very solid but there are two outliers: Rebuild and Cultist are ridiculously overpowered.

Urchin is also OP - a very stupid and unfun card, if you ask me. And does anyone actually like the Knights?

knights are great!

re: cornucopia i think tournament could use a nerfing

Re: Knights, I think this discussion is devolving into a kind of self-parody in which practically every card is deemed obviously problematic and worthy of removal.
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Imrahil3

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #51 on: June 08, 2022, 10:13:22 am »
+3

I'm wondering why Dark Ages needs a second edition. That feels like a solid set with almost no duds. I'm struggling to think of a single card in the set that feels like it needs replacing actually, despite it being a very large set.
I agree that the set is very solid but there are two outliers: Rebuild and Cultist are ridiculously overpowered.

Urchin is also OP - a very stupid and unfun card, if you ask me. And does anyone actually like the Knights?

knights are great!

re: cornucopia i think tournament could use a nerfing

Re: Knights, I think this discussion is devolving into a kind of self-parody in which practically every card is deemed obviously problematic and worthy of removal.

Yeah. If we accumulated all of the logic and reasoning in all these posts as to why any given card is bad for the game and applied it equally across every expansion, I think weíd be left with Workshop and possibly Market. No way that cards like Chapel or Recruiter survive the purge.
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Holger

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #52 on: June 08, 2022, 12:30:24 pm »
+6

I wonder how far these second editions will go? Will Dark Ages get one? It'd be nice to finally see Rebuild and Cultist go, but I'm not sure there are enough other cards to be replaced. Adventures? I hope not, I'd hate to see Miser replaced. Or is Hinterlands it?

I assume that Dark Ages 2E is ready and waiting to be announced.  In past musing about second editions, DXV has listed a number of things that he would like to see changed.  So I am sure that it will be part of this binge of releases. Beyond that:
[...]

I don't think so, since the recommended Seaside 2E/Dark Ages kingdoms in the rulebook only contain 10 existing DA cards. If DA 2E was about to be released, chances are that the recommended kingdoms would include some replaced DA cards, like they do for Base, Intrigue, Prosperity and Hinterlands. (I suppose Donald could intentionally have only used remaining DA cards in order to not spoil a DA 2E. But as I understand his post in this thread, he intentionally included lots of Hinterlands 2E cards in the rulebook as a "hidden" spoiler for careful readers to discover.  :D)

Also, Donald X. is only human - I wouldn't expect him to have two full expansions and three 2nd editions ready to publish in just one year. ;)
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #53 on: June 08, 2022, 04:02:18 pm »
+2

I don't think Ruins add that much to the game considering how much space they take up. "Slightly less bad Curse" isn't that interesting and Charlatan opens up better ways to do that. Death Cart is a very clever design so if Ruins stay I hope there are more cards that interestingly draw on the fact that Ruins are Actions - but I wouldn't miss it that much.

Shelters are nice but they don't really impact the game that much unless Necropolis is the only village, or there's a Way.

With both of them, there's space taken up to account for 5 and 6 player games. Is it worth it?

Losing those 2 frees up 68 cards of space - 6 new cards.

In general I'd like to see non supply cards be more general (like Spoils or Horses) and less an extension of one card (like Mercenary).

500 card Dark Ages seems to add less to the game than 400 Card Menagerie, and even 300 Card Renaissance and Empires. Dark Ages is an advanced enough expansion in terms of rules to handle Landscapes.

Nice. You have successfully gutted everything I enjoy about DA in one stroke ;D
Agreed with that last paragraph, though.

Fun fact about Charlatan- The design intent wasnít to have less-bad Curses, but an Attack that dishes out Coppers with reckless abandon while still scaling well with player count.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #54 on: June 08, 2022, 04:47:00 pm »
0

I have to say I concur with the poster/s who praised Knights. It's one of my favourite cards from Dark Ages. Unless you count Prizes, this is the first pile where each card is different and I love the variety, I find it a lot of fun.

Band of Misfits is another of my favourite cards from the set, and has even been adjusted to be less confusing. I wasn't aware of problems with this one either (in terms of the new version), especially with an extremely similar card (Overlord) in Empires.

I did accidentally overlook Harvest as being another card in Cornucopia that is considered a dud, in terms of being underpowered.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #55 on: June 08, 2022, 07:40:12 pm »
+1

Well with the way things have been going, Donald has been replacing my favorite cards from the other expansions, so he will likely replace my favorite card from hinterlands too. Iíll gotten gains!

Oh why oh why does Donald always get rid of my favorites and keep my hated cards around. Actually for me there isnít really any cards from hinterlands I hate.

And Iíll gotten gains is only my second favorite. Cartographer is my favorite card from hinterlands. And since cartographer isnít an attack card and is probably the most used card in this expansion I doubt Donald is getting rid of it. But something tells me Iíll gotten gains is going to be killed. Iíll still keep it though.

Like I said I donít hate any of the cards from this expansion but I have noticed some cards are weaker than others. Farmland and duchess.

If Donald replaces any of the following cards Iíll still keep them. And play with them regularly.

Cartographer
Iíll gotten gains
Highway
Trader
Tunnel
Scheme
Stables
Oasis
Nomad camp
Noble brigand
Border village
Haggler
Margrave (if he replaces it with a different milita attack variant then Iíll replace it)

If he replaces any of the other cards then I wonít mind replacing them. And I donít mind if any of the other cards stay either.

Iím going to miss playing Iíll gotten gains online.

Hinterlands was the first expansion I ever bought. My friend had already bought intrigue and seaside and at the time we decided to buy different expansions. Of course now between 4 of my friends we have all the expansions and the only ones I never bought were intrigue, renaissance and Allies. And even though most of my friends have most of the expansions, Iím the only that got nocturne and alchemy.

I wonder if heís going to revise alchemy? I feel thatís the expansion that needs the most work. Possession is banned online, and half of the cards are hardly ever used. I feel like he should do it even if heís only replacing a few of them. Also if he created other cards that make the potions more useful. Or maybe even making the potion give you +1$ every time you play it. Thereís only like 16 of them, it wouldnít take much to change potion. I mean if heís already remastered 4 expansions he should remaster all of the expansions that came before adventures at the very least. Even dark ages has some cards, like rebuild that should be replaced.

Although I guess heís trying to forget he ever created the alchemy expansion in the first place. Although honestly if he made alchemy a little bigger would it be such a bad thing? Yes itís very different from other expansions but look at nocturne that expansion is way more different than alchemy and yet most people still like nocturne over alchemy. Plus night cards were never reintroduced into other expansions, same with reserve cards from adventures they were never reintroduced to other expansions either.  So why not make alchemy a bigger potion expansion. Thereís plenty of room in there for more cards. I like alchemy so much I made several of my own and even made some durations that utilize potions.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2022, 07:57:43 pm by ClouduHieh »
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ems57fcva

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #56 on: June 08, 2022, 08:56:29 pm »
+4

I wonder how far these second editions will go? Will Dark Ages get one? It'd be nice to finally see Rebuild and Cultist go, but I'm not sure there are enough other cards to be replaced. Adventures? I hope not, I'd hate to see Miser replaced. Or is Hinterlands it?

I assume that Dark Ages 2E is ready and waiting to be announced.  In past musing about second editions, DXV has listed a number of things that he would like to see changed.  So I am sure that it will be part of this binge of releases. Beyond that:
[...]

I don't think so, since the recommended Seaside 2E/Dark Ages kingdoms in the rulebook only contain 10 existing DA cards. If DA 2E was about to be released, chances are that the recommended kingdoms would include some replaced DA cards, like they do for Base, Intrigue, Prosperity and Hinterlands. (I suppose Donald could intentionally have only used remaining DA cards in order to not spoil a DA 2E. But as I understand his post in this thread, he intentionally included lots of Hinterlands 2E cards in the rulebook as a "hidden" spoiler for careful readers to discover.  :D)

Also, Donald X. is only human - I wouldn't expect him to have two full expansions and three 2nd editions ready to publish in just one year. ;)

Personally, I am surprised that Hinterlands 2E is being done at this time.  I saw it as a fairly well-done set, and enjoy Trader (although the reaction does not get used often).  From my standpoint, the case for doing a Dark Ages 2E is similar.  If DXV and RGG chose not to do it at this time, it would be a combination of feeling that 3 2E-s is enough for now and Dark Ages being a bit less than a decade old.

As for any hints:  Perhaps the Dark Ages hint is in what the new suggested sets do not use instead of what they use.  In that respect, there are 3 cards that were listed in the 1E suggested games for Seaside and Dark Ages but not in the 2E list:  Death Cart, Feodum, and Urchin.  it also is noteworthy that the cards in the suggested games which use Adventures and beyond the cards for the other sets have not been changed.  I cannot guarantee that these cards are being removed (and Death Cart would surprise me), but the possibility is there.

Otherwise, your remark that DXV is only human is one that I agree with.  I also think that RGG would worry about saturating the Dominion market with all of these new releases.  If Dark Ages 2E is in the pipeline, it almost certainly will be the last update for this year.  I also do not expect the next expansion to be released this year so as to keep the expansions spaced out.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2022, 09:42:35 pm by ems57fcva »
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ems57fcva

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #57 on: June 08, 2022, 10:20:57 pm »
+1

I was looking at the Allies suggested sets of 10.  The following cards are listed in the Allies & Hinterlands section: Farmland, Haggler, Jack of All Trades, Margrave, Tunnel, Border Village, Crossroads, Highway, Inn, and Spice Merchant.  Since DXV was already working on Hinterlands 2E as he was also working on Allies, I think that it is fair to say that those cards are definitely staying.

I won't speculate on what cards will be removed or added:  That will be made clear soon enough.  Based on past experience, it seems that DXV is asking 3 questions:  What does this do for the game?  What does this do to the game?  Can it be replaced with something better?  I see where the last question has driven some unexpected changes.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #58 on: June 08, 2022, 10:50:08 pm »
+8

I was looking at the Allies suggested sets of 10.  The following cards are listed in the Allies & Hinterlands section: Farmland, Haggler, Jack of All Trades, Margrave, Tunnel, Border Village, Crossroads, Highway, Inn, and Spice Merchant.  Since DXV was already working on Hinterlands 2E as he was also working on Allies, I think that it is fair to say that those cards are definitely staying.

This turned out not to be true for Prosperity. The recommended sets of 10 include references to Talisman and Trade Route, which were removed from Prosperity 2E.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #59 on: June 08, 2022, 11:21:02 pm »
+10

I also do not expect the next expansion to be released this year so as to keep the expansions spaced out.

It's public knowledge at this point that there is a whole new expansion planned for this year. There may be delays of course, but so far everything seems to be moving along swiftly. I'm normally pessimistic about releases and even I think it has a pretty decent shot at coming out this year.
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Violet CLM

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #60 on: June 09, 2022, 03:11:41 pm »
+1

Logically, "Nomads" will set up a one-time effect you use the turn after you buy it.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #61 on: June 20, 2022, 09:54:53 am »
0

I suppose that also means that we have a good idea of some cards that are not leaving: Cartographer, Crossroads, Farmland, and Stables.

boo Cartographer blows, same with alchemist.  It almost doubles game-times and is boring AF when it's not your turn for 5 minutes. On my ban list.  My own personal hell would be an alchemist/cartographer game
« Last Edit: June 20, 2022, 01:40:00 pm by Honkeyfresh »
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #62 on: June 20, 2022, 01:40:54 pm »
0

Hinterlands 2E will follow a few weeks or so after Prosperity 2E. I don't have a more precise expectation yet. It will have 9 new cards and an update pack with them, like Seaside and Prosperity.

It seemed fun to let some people find out from the Seaside 2E rulebook.

Dominion Easter Eggs
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #63 on: June 20, 2022, 01:41:56 pm »
0

9 new cards will likely mean that 9 existing cards will be removed, as Hinterlands 1E only has 8 blanks.

In principle two VP cards could be replaced by Actions/Treasures to make room for a 27th card. But with Farmland staying this seems very unlikely - I don't expect Tunnel and Silk Road to both leave.
Or Cache could become an Event, but that would mean "retroactively" introducing an extra mechanics just for one "card".

I'd be sad to see tunnel or silk road join the ranks of the deprecated.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #64 on: June 20, 2022, 01:47:20 pm »
0

Would bet against either card disappearing.

Donald X. has mentioned before that he would simplify Trader if he had a time machine (which seems like a horrifyingly irresponsible use for a time machine, but I digress),

Golf Clap  8)
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #65 on: June 20, 2022, 01:50:26 pm »
0

I do find Margrave an annoying attack but it offers quite a lot and enough similar attacks (Goons, Ghost Ship) have already been removed recently.

Agree.  I think margrave is a little strong.  Maybe make it discard to 4 and not 3?
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #66 on: June 20, 2022, 01:55:35 pm »
0

Develop is amazeballs. Trader is cool. Very much a silver gainer not a trasher as Imrahil3 said. Would bet against either card disappearing.

The 7 obvious ones are Mandarin, Duchess, Cache, Noble Brigand, IGG, Oracle, Nomad Camp.  Oracle is only bad because it's slow to resolve, some other draw replacement will be better.

Hard to guess what the other two of 9 might be, nothing else in the set has clear issues.  I suppose Develop is too weak if you look at it as just a trasher, but it's more of a weird gainer like Dismantle.

I don't tend to ever play develop unless there is a real good reason (fortress, only trasher and junk etc).
If you think as a gainer more than a trasher are you trashing 3's/4's over coppers a lot?  Ever over estates since usually not a 1 card to gain maybe?

I usually trash estates unless there is a good reason to do something else, wonder if i'm not giving this card its due.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #67 on: June 20, 2022, 01:57:25 pm »
0

I think Spice Merchant is secretly one of the least interesting cards ever printed since you just get it on T1/2 every time. I still don't expect it to go, but I do think there is a strong case, theoretically.

It's like the woodcutter or trashing cards. Id like it more if it cave 3 cards and one action or 2 cards and 2 actions just to jazz  8) it up a bit.  8)
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #68 on: June 20, 2022, 02:01:06 pm »
0

What on earth is the argument for getting rid of Develop?
I think Cartographer should go. It's never good or interesting. Night Watchman is what this card wanted to be.

totally agree. And it's basically no time at all.  Whereas repeatedly drawing and then planning out the best permutations for your order is so damn time consuming/ boring for the opponent.

I'd almost always rather buy a night watchman over a cartographer anyway just based on the difference in price points.  But i have it banned so I never see it anyway...
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #69 on: June 20, 2022, 02:04:13 pm »
0

I wonder how far these second editions will go? Will Dark Ages get one? It'd be nice to finally see Rebuild and Cultist go, but I'm not sure there are enough other cards to be replaced. Adventures? I hope not, I'd hate to see Miser replaced. Or is Hinterlands it?

My guess is they all do.  It's pretty easy money as it doesn't take an entire new set/concept and many people will buy the update.  Plus these cards are all theoretical concepts with light beta testing.  The Second edition is taking the cards out that weren't good/great/fun and replacing them with improved cards so each set is a big improvement and Donald wants to make each set as good as possible.  That german perfectionism/ocd in action  :P
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #70 on: June 20, 2022, 02:07:10 pm »
0

I wonder how far these second editions will go?
Alchemy will become a full-sized set

Please let this happen.  Then they can transmute transmute into a decent card.  I love potion cards.  It'd be nice if there were more of them in general. Plus I personally love when there are decks with 2 or even 3 potion cards in them, and we need more potion cards in general to make this happen more often.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #71 on: June 20, 2022, 02:10:45 pm »
0

I think Cartographer should go. It's never good or interesting. Night Watchman is what this card wanted to be.
Is Night Watchman ever good or interesting?

In junking decks without trashing it is.  For similar reason it is good for end games.  Also being able to assemble your engine parts to spike 5+ maybe with gains/+buys is often better than a silver.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #72 on: June 20, 2022, 02:11:57 pm »
0

cartographer's good for getting performance out of otherwise sloggy decks. The trick is you gotta have a couple of them.
precisely why these games take forever
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #73 on: June 20, 2022, 02:16:08 pm »
0

DXV on Hinterlands in 2012:

Quote
Odds are I wasn't going to be so unhappy with this one either, given how recent it is. The one thing I can say is, I thought the set was simpler than people think it is, and I would be strongly tempted to simplify it a little given that I know people think it's complex. Basically make it a little more like the standalone it didn't end up being. To that end the obv. changes are to drop the reactions from Fool's Gold and Trader, to drop the above-line text on Duchess (just leave it +$2), and make a version of IGG that just has $1 or $2 on the top. Possibly either Inn or Mandarin could change, I like them both as-is but they would be some of the wordiest cards left at that point. Noble Brigand is wordy but it needs those words. Probably all of these changes sound awful to you, dear reader, but that's the way of the world. It's hard to see the value in the simplicity I'd gain, but there really is value there. Anyway I went with the more complex versions and it's not so bad that I did.

Well, that commentary seems fairly out of date.  And here's from 2020:

Quote
Hinterlands: The problem here is that mostly I want to tweak cards but keep them, which results in an update pack we can't really sell. So e.g.: move +Buy from Margrave to Cache; drop the Reactions from Fool's Gold and Trader; make Ill-Gotten Gains a $6 that makes $2 and Curses on-gain. There are still cards to replace too though: Noble Brigand (weak), Mandarin (weak, rare weird issues), Oracle (so slow).

And here's the 2021 Thunderminion rankings from best to worst:

Quote
Margrave
Border Village
Highway
Spice Merchant
Stables
Haggler
Inn
Scheme
Jack of All Trades
Crossroads
Fool's Gold
Ill-Gotten Gains
Develop
Oracle
Tunnel
Embassy
Oasis
Farmland
Cartographer
Nomad Camp
Trader
Silk Road
Duchess
Noble Brigand
Mandarin
Cache

Wow! Thanks for the hinterlands through the years parts.

Color me surprised that Spice Merchant is so high on this list and that Silk Road is so low.  I think less experienced players don't understand the fun and power of silk road until they get clobbered a few times with it.
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Honkeyfresh

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #74 on: June 20, 2022, 02:35:52 pm »
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I'm wondering why Dark Ages needs a second edition. That feels like a solid set with almost no duds. I'm struggling to think of a single card in the set that feels like it needs replacing actually, despite it being a very large set.
I agree that the set is very solid but there are two outliers: Rebuild and Cultist are ridiculously overpowered.
I agree that both these are very strong, though I'm not sure I agree that rebuild is OP. I think rebuild is just fine.  Cultist is Op.  Maybe just play another cultist (as in 2 max) because an early 5 just creates more Cultists and slogs your opponent so fast. It's kind of like the goons pin effect in that way.

I think that these cards could be improved upon or at least tweaked a bit.

Storeroom. a lil weak though sometimes it shines.  Would like to see a + action or at least + card before you discard to give it just a lil bump in power.
Beggar.  Honestly this card should be sent to the counting house. it just sux.
Armory. I just find this card blah and boring.  Unless there are +action cards in a deck it's usually not worth getting absent edge case scenarios.
Wandering minstrel:  I actually think this is a little OP. Not really sure how i'd fix it, but it's almost worth 5 a lot of the time.  actions, sifting and hand setting is a really powerful combo.  Maybe if it didn't discard the coins it might be a little more in line with a 4 cost card IMHO?
Rebuild:  This card sux.  It's so OP you can't ignore it.  And then it's largely random as to who wins the rebuild mirror battle.  Just junk it.  A lot of people ban it, or in game ban it through agreement.
Altar: a great card especially in the beginning, but absent heavy draw by the end game it becomes a bloated stone in your deck.  Maybe add a +1 card draw for each pile that is empty?  I think it would make it more fun in the end game and also lead to more fun engines and games.
Hovel/Overgrown Estate: Bet you didnt think a ruin would make the list! I'd make this a victory card.  (in a related non dark ages note, I'd like to see Baron be able to discard these so maybe called them Ruined estates.  Never tried to discard an Overgrown estate by a baron, but my guess is it wouldn't work. also like to see them count for silk roads/shepherds etc



« Last Edit: June 20, 2022, 03:15:33 pm by Honkeyfresh »
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"Rap game Julio Franco, Chuck Norris, Texas Ranger/ Ice on my fingers look like I slap-boxed a penguin." -- Riff Raff Proverbs 4:20

"Sometimes I say some things people may think are just outlandish, but I'm going to have the last laugh." -- Riff Raff  Exodus 6:66
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