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[majiponi]

Collection is brokenly strong with Supplies, isn't it?

[faust]

Collection is brokenly strong with Supplies, isn't it?

Feels like it has major problems with Horses in general. It's also quite insane with Livery. Would it have been good to restrict it to "when you gain an Action from the supply"?

[urza]

Yeah of course I’m exaggerating. However how would you feel if your most favorite card also got replaced. Out of over hundreds of cards goons is one of my most favorite cards it’s in my top 10. For it to be removed from dominion online and future physical copies is absolute drag for me. Not only that but my most hated card in the whole set gets to stay! Mint is in my top 10 most hated dominion cards. And as matter of fact it also happened to seaside. Embargo is in my top 25 most loved cards and lookout is in my top 10 most hated cards.  When I bought prosperity the there were very few cards I liked from the set to begin with. Goons was prosperity s one redeeming quality in my eyes. Without it it’s a ruined expansion in my eyes. And yes I’m well aware that goons has its pros and cons. But for me the pros outweigh the cons. As for me I wasn’t interested in an expansion with tons of different treasure cards. And now that it was removed, well it won’t be the same without goons my favorite militia variant. And I’m sure I’m not the only one on dominion online that’s going to miss it. Goodbye goons this is cruel world indeed. And not replacing mint is criminal.

There are several things in this post I find baffling, but the main one is: how can anyone hate Lookout?  To be honest, I've never played with it, but it has no interaction.  So if you hate it... just don't buy it?  Same with Mint, mostly, though I guess Mint can provide some explosive starts that you might feel are unfair or something.  Still feels weird to hate it.

And while I can empathize with not wanting Goons to get cut (to a degree), it's really hard to take this post seriously when you say the whole expansion is ruined now.

[Gherald]

No more goon slogs where I get to sit there for a half hour with hand sizes barely able to afford anything and we eventually have nothing better to do but buy out all the coppers? My dominion experience has been ruined!!!!1

[Awaclus]

There are several things in this post I find baffling, but the main one is: how can anyone hate Lookout?  To be honest, I've never played with it, but it has no interaction.  So if you hate it... just don't buy it?  Same with Mint, mostly, though I guess Mint can provide some explosive starts that you might feel are unfair or something.  Still feels weird to hate it.

He has already talked about that elsewhere:

Lookout, and Seahag have no real benefit. And lookout can destroy your deck at the end of the game. One time I drew 2 duchies and province with lookout and it was online when it happened.talk about bad luck!

So I am a copper strategist, yes I know that’s not really a real strategy. So yes I hate mint because I would rather keep my coppers

[GendoIkari]

Nothing gets to be on-buy anymore. It's being phased out everywhere, due to casual players not understanding the distinction between buying and gaining.

And, even for players who understand the distinction, it can be confusing how the timing of on-buy and on-gain effects differ.

Well that’s fixable by making them both happen after the gain.

Wouldn’t this just then be equally confusing to all the players who assume that buy happens first?

[GendoIkari]

Nothing gets to be on-buy anymore. It's being phased out everywhere, due to casual players not understanding the distinction between buying and gaining.

And, even for players who understand the distinction, it can be confusing how the timing of on-buy and on-gain effects differ.

Well that’s fixable by making them both happen after the gain.

Wouldn’t this just then be equally confusing to all the players who assume that buy happens first?

Another possibility that would have required a different design from the start; don’t make make buying a card cause a gain. Make “gain” effectively mean “take without buying”. All cards that now say “when you gain” would have to be “when you buy or gain” instead. But then again I’m not a game designer so I wouldn’t trust my opinions here.

[GendoIkari]

As someone mentioned in the previous thread; I’m surprised by the lack of VP token cards. It always felt weird to me that a new mechanic that needed its own tokens was only used for 3 cards in the set. Now with second edition it’s still only 4 cards.

Also surprised that Goons, the card known for generating insanely huge scores, has been replaced with a card that is likely to generate even higher scores. Granted, the loss of the ability to buy Coppers for points might just balance it out; but hard to say.

[CaptainTheo]

I notice that Collection is very similar to and compares favourably with Plunder, which costs the same. Collection isn't covered up at the start of the game, offers an extra buy and is only worse if you don't gain any Action cards in the turn after playing Collection.

[4est]

All true, although: Collection doesn't let you keep your $2 Lost Cities.

[ClouduHieh]

I played lookout quite a few times online and have had to trash a lot of good cards with it. I also drew 3 provinces in a row. It was the only trasher that game and there were a ton of minus point cards, and had absolutely no luck in trashing a single curse. Then I used it one final turn and drew 3 provinces causing me to lose a province. Because it forces you to trash. And then I played it again in another game and drew 2 duchies and a province. Even if it’s my fault for playing it at the end of the game. Lookout is a gamble. And it could cause you to not only trash a good card but also discard a good card. Now whenever lookout is in the game it just sits there collecting dust. It’s a waste of space. Any card that becomes a waste of space I absolutely hate. Mint is the same way it just sits there collecting dust.  I do not like most cards that force me to trash cards, with an exception. Dark ages has lots of forced trash cards like rats and junk dealer which forces you to trash a card from your hand. For one thing it’s from my hand, so it’s easier to choose if I should play it or not. It’s easier to mitigate trashing cards in dark ages simply because of all the synergy that trashing has in dark ages. Plus there’s tons of cards that have effects if they are trashed. There’s lots of different benefits to trashing the various cards. Plus lookout and mint have no trashing synergy with their expansions.  Plus I prefer to trash cards from my hand or discard pile. If it forces you to trash from your deck like lookout then I hate it. I would rather be forced to trash a card if someone attacked me with giant. I don’t have any problems with my opponents dismantling my deck, but I absolutely hate playing with cards that force me to dismantle my deck based on a gamble. And it’s another reason why I hate mint because it forces you to trash all treasures in play, for an action card I find tedious at best. For instance if goons had mints trash all treasure cards in play effect to buy it, I would still love goons. Because like I said I find mints action effect boring. If I’m going to trash all my treasures in play to buy a card, the action itself better be powerful and exciting. I don’t find lookout exciting either. Both lookout and mint are completely boring to me.

Which is why when I get the new cards. I’m removing mint instead of goons and I’m removing lookout instead of embargo. Honestly I don’t understand why any of you like these cards. And I don’t think I ever will. I guess I’m just a different kind of dominion player. I see dominion in a different light. For me dominion is like risk or memoir 44. If I want to play a peaceful game I’ll play Everdell or ark nova. If I want to play a competitive game I’ll play dominion or risk.

[Imrahil3]

My friend played Lookout, revealed three Platina, and still won the game. If you haven’t had good luck with it that’s fine. Nobody’s forcing you to play it. Sounds like you’d have more fun leaving it out of your games entirely. With over 400 cards it’d be a miracle if every player found every card interesting and useful.

For the record, I have a hard time taking you seriously when you write a novel describing how Lookout is “a waste of space.”

But truly, enjoy your continued Goons games. I’ll be right there with you continuing to use the 1E cards.

[Commodore Chuckles]

Also surprised that Goons, the card known for generating insanely huge scores, has been replaced with a card that is likely to generate even higher scores. Granted, the loss of the ability to buy Coppers for points might just balance it out; but hard to say.

As Donald said in the OP, the problem with Goons wasn't the VP-gaining, it was the attack, which didn't fit with the rest of the card and could also lock the other player out of getting it.

Regarding replacing all on-Buy with on-Gain: I personally think it's a mistake. I never had trouble remembering that Goons, Hoard, Haggler, Merchant Guild and Port only worked with buying instead of gaining. Goons and Merchant Guild reminded you with the +Buy, Hoard is rarely played outside of the Buy phase, and Haggler and Port would be obviously stupid if they were on-Gain.

The only cards where I was ever tripped up by this were Noble Brigand and Farmland. In a Hinterlands 2nd Edition Noble Brigand is probably on the chopping block anyway, so that leaves Farmland. After I made the mistake with Farmland it made sense to me why it didn't work on-Gain, but it still annoyed me in the first few seconds after I gained it and realized I couldn't do the upgrading. Meanwhile, while original Merchant Guild never confused me, new Merchant Guild actually did! I actually thought I would get Coffers for gaining anything, until that didn't work and I had to read it carefully.

I think as long "Buy" and "Gain" are separate things, there's guaranteed to be at least some confusion. The only way out is this:

Market
Action - $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Gain
+$1

[grrgrrgrr]

Also surprised that Goons, the card known for generating insanely huge scores, has been replaced with a card that is likely to generate even higher scores. Granted, the loss of the ability to buy Coppers for points might just balance it out; but hard to say.

As Donald said in the OP, the problem with Goons wasn't the VP-gaining, it was the attack, which didn't fit with the rest of the card and could also lock the other player out of getting it.

Regarding replacing all on-Buy with on-Gain: I personally think it's a mistake. I never had trouble remembering that Goons, Hoard, Haggler, Merchant Guild and Port only worked with buying instead of gaining. Goons and Merchant Guild reminded you with the +Buy, Hoard is rarely played outside of the Buy phase, and Haggler and Port would be obviously stupid if they were on-Gain.

The only cards where I was ever tripped up by this were Noble Brigand and Farmland. In a Hinterlands 2nd Edition Noble Brigand is probably on the chopping block anyway, so that leaves Farmland. After I made the mistake with Farmland it made sense to me why it didn't work on-Gain, but it still annoyed me in the first few seconds after I gained it and realized I couldn't do the upgrading. Meanwhile, while original Merchant Guild never confused me, new Merchant Guild actually did! I actually thought I would get Coffers for gaining anything, until that didn't work and I had to read it carefully.

I think as long "Buy" and "Gain" are separate things, there's guaranteed to be at least some confusion. The only way out is this:

Market
Action - $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Gain
+$1

I too think that the new wording of Hoard (the buy part) is torturous and more confusing-inducing than the old one. But you also have to think: what after the use of onbuy is phased out to the absolute minimum? Will there be then misconceptions when the use of "when you buy" suddenly pops up?

[Meta]

Another possibility that would have required a different design from the start; don’t make make buying a card cause a gain. Make “gain” effectively mean “take without buying”. All cards that now say “when you gain” would have to be “when you buy or gain” instead. But then again I’m not a game designer so I wouldn’t trust my opinions here.

That's literally what happened with the german edition of the game, where buying and gaining were treated as two completely different things, until it was "fixed" in Hinterlands.
I think that'd be the only solution to make the distinction more clear to casuals without ruining the wording of every card with on-buy effects.

[Awaclus]

If I want to play a competitive game I’ll play dominion

...and if you want to win at a competitive game, you'll buy Lookout.

[Donald X.]

As someone mentioned in the previous thread; I’m surprised by the lack of VP token cards. It always felt weird to me that a new mechanic that needed its own tokens was only used for 3 cards in the set. Now with second edition it’s still only 4 cards.

The intention was to have more; but there were a lot of intentions, all competing, and in the end there are four.

[ClouduHieh]

If you want to win at a competitive game you’ll buy goons, not lookout.

[spineflu]

If you want to win at a competitive game you’ll buy goons, not lookout.

both, honestly. heck, buy lookouts with goons - they're cheap - and then trash the extra lookouts with lookout.

[Awaclus]

If you want to win at a competitive game you’ll buy goons, not lookout.

Want to try a cage match? Lookout forced in the kingdom, I have to buy at least two of them by turn 4, you can play normally with no restrictions.

[dpm]

Even more nuts than Collection + Stampede: Collection + Cavalry + Academy + Way of the Butterfly. 

Yes, this actually happened. 

[NoMoreFun]

Collection is the Goons experience. I like how there's no attack, and it's held back by not being able to buy a Collection for VP with a Collection. But it's so much easier to play multiples and get an enormous VP haul. Costing $5 instead of $6 is also a big help.

It could be a bad case of new toy syndrome, but I think it's the best card in the game. I wonder if it was playtested at $7?

[hedomedo]

Even more nuts than Collection + Stampede: Collection + Cavalry + Academy + Way of the Butterfly. 

Yes, this actually happened.

I just got into a game that was completely broken because of Collection + Stampede. It would be an endless game if the other player wouldn't resign. I think that's broken game design.

[LastFootnote]

Even more nuts than Collection + Stampede: Collection + Cavalry + Academy + Way of the Butterfly. 

Yes, this actually happened.

I just got into a game that was completely broken because of Collection + Stampede. It would be an endless game if the other player wouldn't resign. I think that's broken game design.

It was a known issue, but what’s your suggested solution? Would it be better for Collection to have a confusing, hard-to-remember wording? It would be be great if the combo never came up in random sets online.

[MrHepp]

It was a known issue, but what’s your suggested solution? Would it be better for Collection to have a confusing, hard-to-remember wording? It would be be great if the combo never came up in random sets online.

A possible solution could be to change the wording for Collection to "..., when you gain an Action card from the Supply, ...".