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Author Topic: Seaside 2E Preview 3  (Read 13204 times)

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Cuzz

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2022, 10:47:34 am »
+9

Gotta say, getting rid of Ambassador is a real bummer, especially since the replacement doesn't preserve any remnants of its effect. If people really hate attacks they don't have to play with them.
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Awaclus

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2022, 11:15:34 am »
0

Gotta say, getting rid of Ambassador is a real bummer, especially since the replacement doesn't preserve any remnants of its effect.

It preserves the remnants that it's a trasher, and depending on your turn 3-4 draws, it can be ridiculously amazing or absolute garbage.
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Gherald

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2022, 11:47:59 am »
+6

I'm going to miss playing estate tennis

Ambassador should be made an honorary promo, such a great card for 2P games
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markusin

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2022, 12:31:44 pm »
+1

There is no doubt. Sailor can play the card the moment it is gained, before Blockade sets it aside.

Edit: Another fun fact for people who haven't yet read Blockade closely, is that the embargo/curse effect only applies while Blockade has its gained card set aside. Anything that interferes with the card remaining set aside by Blockade (such as Sailor putting it into play!), stops the embargo curse effect from happening.

Testing it online on dominion.games, what happens is you can't stop blockade from setting the card aside, since that's the gain location set by blockade (it doesn't visit the discard pile). But then, Sailor doesn't lose track of the card, and it can move the gained card into play from set-aside land. It's similar to how you still gain villa to hand when gaining it with Armory.

Edit: gaining Villa with Blockade will also have the Villa moving to your hand, which suggests that no stop-moving event occurs when you gain something with Blockade, and for that to be true the gained card has to not have moved from the discard pile, I think. Meaning, Blockade moving a card from the supply to the set aside zone during gaining is an atomic thing that cannot be broken down further into steps you can react between.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 12:36:20 pm by markusin »
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IceHot

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2022, 12:43:04 pm »
0

Glad to see Ambassador go (my longest banned card) its pretty broken even in two-player.
Sad to see Explorer go (massively undervalued card) . 
I wont miss pirate ship but I am concerned 5-2 splits are going to see more kingdoms where they are dominant.   Too many 5-2 deck destructors can unbalance the game from the start.  That was one of the problems with saboteur (other than it being a bad buy for anything else).

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LastFootnote

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2022, 01:07:38 pm »
+2

Sad to see Explorer go (massively undervalued card)

If Pirate didn't also gain Treasures to hand, possibly Explorer might have stayed and e.g. Merchant Ship could have been cut instead. But how many Gold gainers does one set need? So in this case a card that left was somewhat a function of the new cards added.

I will also miss Explorer.
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mandioca15

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2022, 02:31:14 pm »
0

If a Corsair is in play, does the first played Silver or Gold by another player have any effect before it is trashed? Do you still get the $2 or $3, or is it just immediately trashed with no effect?
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Awaclus

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2022, 02:47:31 pm »
+2

If a Corsair is in play, does the first played Silver or Gold by another player have any effect before it is trashed? Do you still get the $2 or $3, or is it just immediately trashed with no effect?

You get the effect after you've trashed the treasure.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2022, 02:50:21 pm »
+1

I didn't realize before reading that question that Corsair uses a weird wording. There's no "when". I guess "each other player trashes the first Silver or Gold they play each turn" is supposed to be read as "when each other player plays their first Silver or Gold each turn, they first trash it"?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 04:33:14 pm by GendoIkari »
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mxdata

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2022, 03:13:21 pm »
0

It seems like Pirate would end up being most commonly played by its reaction, and rarely played as an ordinary Action. With Scheme and two Pirates, you could end up with a ton of Golds, with each Pirate's gain triggering the other Pirate's reaction!
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LastFootnote

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2022, 04:35:16 pm »
+3

If a Corsair is in play, does the first played Silver or Gold by another player have any effect before it is trashed? Do you still get the $2 or $3, or is it just immediately trashed with no effect?

You get the effect after you've trashed the treasure.

I didn't realize before reading that question that Corsair uses a weird wording. There's no "when". I guess "each other player trashes the first Silver or Gold they play each turn" is supposed to be read as "when each other player plays their first Silver or Gold each turn, they first trash it"?

There's no implicit "first". By default, "when" means "after". First you put the Silver or Gold into play, then you get the +Coins from it, then you trash it.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2022, 04:47:02 pm »
0

If a Corsair is in play, does the first played Silver or Gold by another player have any effect before it is trashed? Do you still get the $2 or $3, or is it just immediately trashed with no effect?

You get the effect after you've trashed the treasure.

I didn't realize before reading that question that Corsair uses a weird wording. There's no "when". I guess "each other player trashes the first Silver or Gold they play each turn" is supposed to be read as "when each other player plays their first Silver or Gold each turn, they first trash it"?

There's no implicit "first". By default, "when" means "after". First you put the Silver or Gold into play, then you get the +Coins from it, then you trash it.

I was wondering about that, but based my alternate wording off of Awaclus's answer. Royal Carriage uses "directly after you finish player an action card", but you're saying that "when you play an action card" would work the exact same way? Are there any cards that say "when you play" without a "first"?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 04:48:59 pm by GendoIkari »
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2022, 05:02:04 pm »
0

Kinda cute how texts go from "when you buy" to "when you gain during your Buy Phase". First Merchant Guild, now Treasury. It definitely makes the cards fit more organically with events that feel like buying cards, such as Alms and Ride. I'm really curious how Goons is going to be in Prosperity E2.

The errata Treasury got also kills its incredible synergy with Dominate.

Two of the cards that were revealed today are actually more like modern-expansion cards. Sailor is really a Renaissance card, as that card lets you play cards outside of their intended phase. Pirate is a Menagerie card, as it's a card that can play itself through its reaction.

And I'm glad that Seaside has now Duration Attacks; it was kinda lame how all attacks of the Duration introducing expansion were non-Durations. It is kinda ironic that the only attack that survived the cut, Cutpurse, is the attack that IMO was most deserving of a cut. As it's basically just a really shitty Militia.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2022, 05:09:47 pm »
+1

VERY happy that Lookout survived. One of my favorite cards.

I wouldn't have minded seeing both Merchant Ship and Treasury get cut.

I have mixed feelings about Ambassador. I think it ended up being less interesting than it seemed at first. Most of the time you're just passing Estates and Coppers back and forth, which can be frustrating and tedious. Doing devilish things like handing out Curses and Potions didn't come up much in any of the games I played.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 05:21:36 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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infangthief

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2022, 05:23:29 pm »
+1

Are there any cards that say "when you play" without a "first"?
I was thinking about this the other day. Enchantress.
I think anything that said "instead of following its instructions" wouldn't really need the "first". I made a fan card along those lines and reckoned that I didn't need a "first".
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GendoIkari

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2022, 05:26:51 pm »
0

Are there any cards that say "when you play" without a "first"?
I was thinking about this the other day. Enchantress.
I think anything that said "instead of following its instructions" wouldn't really need the "first". I made a fan card along those lines and reckoned that I didn't need a "first".

There was some discussion before about how Enchantress can't be read literally though. You have to have an implied "would" in there somewhere for it to make sense ("instead" without "would" never makes sense really). In the case of Enchantress, the "correct" wording would be "when you would follow a card's instructions" rather than "when you play a card".

Updated Citadel is the same; it says "when you play" but that's not literally how it should be read.

As far as I know there hasn't been a real "when you play" effect until Corsair; and ironically it doesn't use "when you play" wording.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 05:32:22 pm by GendoIkari »
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Holger

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2022, 06:06:51 pm »
+4

What surprises me the most is that now Seaside, the 3rd set, has a way to play Action cards (and Night cards) in your buy phase. I guess it's not that much of a problem rules-wise, but I've always seen that as at least a 12th set thing, potentially confusing to newer players. But I'm sure Donald knows what he's doing!

And additionally, Sailor can also let you play a Treasure (Astrolabe) in your Action phase (if you gain it during your Action phase, e.g. with Smugglers).
I think it's the only card that allows you to play all three types of playable cards (Actions, Nights and Treasures) in the "wrong" phase. :o
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Dwedit

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2022, 07:22:51 pm »
0

Just hitting the Enhance button...

https://i.imgur.com/ozDAy1c.jpg
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mxdata

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2022, 08:19:31 pm »
+1

If a Corsair is in play, does the first played Silver or Gold by another player have any effect before it is trashed? Do you still get the $2 or $3, or is it just immediately trashed with no effect?

You get the effect after you've trashed the treasure.

I didn't realize before reading that question that Corsair uses a weird wording. There's no "when". I guess "each other player trashes the first Silver or Gold they play each turn" is supposed to be read as "when each other player plays their first Silver or Gold each turn, they first trash it"?

There's no implicit "first". By default, "when" means "after". First you put the Silver or Gold into play, then you get the +Coins from it, then you trash it.

So, presumably if you had both Highwayman and Corsair in play, if the first Treasure you play is a Silver or Gold, it just gets trashed without giving you the +coins?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2022, 08:38:30 pm »
+1

If a Corsair is in play, does the first played Silver or Gold by another player have any effect before it is trashed? Do you still get the $2 or $3, or is it just immediately trashed with no effect?

You get the effect after you've trashed the treasure.

I didn't realize before reading that question that Corsair uses a weird wording. There's no "when". I guess "each other player trashes the first Silver or Gold they play each turn" is supposed to be read as "when each other player plays their first Silver or Gold each turn, they first trash it"?

There's no implicit "first". By default, "when" means "after". First you put the Silver or Gold into play, then you get the +Coins from it, then you trash it.

So, presumably if you had both Highwayman and Corsair in play, if the first Treasure you play is a Silver or Gold, it just gets trashed without giving you the +coins?

Yeah, though that should be the same no matter which order Corsair worked in.
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Ingix

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2022, 01:54:45 am »
+1

There was some discussion before about how Enchantress can't be read literally though. You have to have an implied "would" in there somewhere for it to make sense ("instead" without "would" never makes sense really). In the case of Enchantress, the "correct" wording would be "when you would follow a card's instructions" rather than "when you play a card".

Updated Citadel is the same; it says "when you play" but that's not literally how it should be read.

As far as I know there hasn't been a real "when you play" effect until Corsair; and ironically it doesn't use "when you play" wording.

The general idea is that "When you do X" happens after X. That is also true when X is "play", but unfortunately the Enchantress-like effects (Enchantress, Ways, Highwayman) have also used that wording. As has been said, those effects can usually be distinguished because they explicitely "meddle with" the execution of the card, which Corsair does not mention anything about.

Space permitting, the "after" is sometimes explictely spelled out, like just recently on Fellowship of Scribes. That shouldn't mean it isn't the exact same timing (well, I don't think there is a Way for Silver/Gold to be an Action also), but another example is opponent's Corsair +  your Merchant. If you play the first Silver that turn later, both trigger at exactly the same time and are ordered in the same timing window (which usually doesn't matter).
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urza

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2022, 01:56:37 am »
+2

Now they can all be the best $5 ever.

Is this an in-joke?  I went back and read the OP and I can't figure out what this is in reference to.  Help please!
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Gherald

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2022, 02:09:39 am »
+4

Basically. Ten years ago:
Again some people complain about various other cards but I am having none of it. Pirate Ship is weak but I don't think it should be stronger. I like Treasure Map as is. Fishing Village and Wharf are strong engine-enablers and well we are talking good times there. Pearl Diver and Navigator are not prized, but they look reasonable to me, and as I have said many times, if I made all cards better by making them maximally complex, the game would have no players. Explorer is fine, why do people even complain about Explorer. They can't all be the best $5 ever.
Then it just became a famous dominion turn of phrase when discussing cards that are weaker than others yet seem fine the way they are.
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Awaclus

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2022, 02:13:30 am »
+1

There's no implicit "first". By default, "when" means "after". First you put the Silver or Gold into play, then you get the +Coins from it, then you trash it.

Wait, when did that get changed? When-play definitely used to happen after you put the card into play, but before you execute its effects. According to the wiki, it still does, but I guess that could be out of date.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2022, 02:14:54 am by Awaclus »
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #49 on: May 19, 2022, 02:24:50 am »
0

Im surprised that Treasure map made it!
Yeah Treasure Map could have used some self synergy, for instance a simple: "When you gain this, you may put it on top of your deck".
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