Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 [3]  All

Author Topic: Seaside 2E Preview 3  (Read 13207 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2511
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1630
    • View Profile
Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #50 on: May 19, 2022, 04:16:53 am »
+1

As far as I know there hasn't been a real "when you play" effect until Corsair; and ironically it doesn't use "when you play" wording.

There are Merchant, Sauna and Champion. It was ruled that these were all "after-resolve", like Coin of the Realm and Royal Carriage. But then Champion got errata, so that it's "first", like Reactions. (The "first" still seems to be missing from the card though, at least in the wiki.)

Of course, until not so long ago, all Reactions said "when another player plays", and we just needed to know that they were supposed be happen first and not after.

There's no implicit "first". By default, "when" means "after". First you put the Silver or Gold into play, then you get the +Coins from it, then you trash it.

Wait, when did that get changed? When-play definitely used to happen after you put the card into play, but before you execute its effects. According to the wiki, it still does, but I guess that could be out of date.

The wiki is wrong. Merchant and Sauna don't belong there. There was some discussion of them possibly being timed as Reactions (not as Enchantress), but Donald ruled that they are "after".
That page also has other mistakes, btw.

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2511
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1630
    • View Profile
Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2022, 04:32:33 am »
+1

I don't think Corsair has a good phrasing. "Until then, each other player" seems weird. "Each other player" means that each player does something in turn. What is really meant is "Until then, the first time another player plays a Silver or Gold each turn". Highwayman has the same problem, but doesn't seem quite so off.

A problem with both cards is that in terms of timing, "each other player" is supposed to mean that the effect is resolved by the player being addressed.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2022, 10:38:21 am by Jeebus »
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11790
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +12818
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2022, 05:30:29 am »
+1

Of course, until not so long ago, all Reactions said "when another player plays", and we just needed to know that they were supposed be happen first and not after.

So did Urchin.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

Oyvind

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 175
  • Respect: +118
    • View Profile
Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #53 on: May 19, 2022, 06:57:09 am »
+4

Fall expansion?!?
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2511
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1630
    • View Profile
Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #54 on: May 19, 2022, 07:28:14 am »
+2

So... I play Sauna and then Silver, trashing a Lich from my hand. I choose to gain a card with two types, so my opponent plays Falconer using Way of the Mouse with Vassal, hitting Corsair. Now I have to trash the Silver I played, if it was my first.

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7494
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10715
    • View Profile
Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #55 on: May 19, 2022, 09:32:26 am »
+1

Fall expansion?!?

Fall expansion!

Y'know, assuming not too many delays.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9680
  • Respect: +10692
    • View Profile
Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #56 on: May 19, 2022, 10:30:41 am »
+1

There was some discussion before about how Enchantress can't be read literally though. You have to have an implied "would" in there somewhere for it to make sense ("instead" without "would" never makes sense really). In the case of Enchantress, the "correct" wording would be "when you would follow a card's instructions" rather than "when you play a card".

Updated Citadel is the same; it says "when you play" but that's not literally how it should be read.

As far as I know there hasn't been a real "when you play" effect until Corsair; and ironically it doesn't use "when you play" wording.

The general idea is that "When you do X" happens after X. That is also true when X is "play", but unfortunately the Enchantress-like effects (Enchantress, Ways, Highwayman) have also used that wording. As has been said, those effects can usually be distinguished because they explicitely "meddle with" the execution of the card, which Corsair does not mention anything about.

Space permitting, the "after" is sometimes explictely spelled out, like just recently on Fellowship of Scribes. That shouldn't mean it isn't the exact same timing (well, I don't think there is a Way for Silver/Gold to be an Action also), but another example is opponent's Corsair +  your Merchant. If you play the first Silver that turn later, both trigger at exactly the same time and are ordered in the same timing window (which usually doesn't matter).

This all makes sense, it just seems like an unfortunate leap to have to make to know when you trash that Silver or Gold; since the wording of the ability only tells you that you trash it; without any "when" or "the first time" to tell you.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Oyvind

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 175
  • Respect: +118
    • View Profile
Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #57 on: May 19, 2022, 10:43:01 am »
+1

Fall expansion?!?

Fall expansion!

Y'know, assuming not too many delays.

Its an expensive and fantastic time to be a Dominion addict!
Logged

4est

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 349
  • Shuffle iT Username: 4est
  • Respect: +1361
    • View Profile
Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #58 on: May 19, 2022, 10:46:41 am »
0

Fall expansion?!?

Fall expansion!

Y'know, assuming not too many delays.

Wow, that's neat! We're getting a lot of Dominion this year.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9680
  • Respect: +10692
    • View Profile
Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #59 on: May 19, 2022, 10:55:54 am »
0

Fall expansion?!?

What's the context of this post? Was fall expansion mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread?
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

scolapasta

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 574
  • Respect: +734
    • View Profile
Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #60 on: May 19, 2022, 10:59:42 am »
+4

Fall expansion?!?

What's the context of this post? Was fall expansion mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread?

From the secret history:
Quote
I usually have a section going on about outtakes. Seaside 2E though was worked on at the same time as both Allies and the fall expansion (fall expansion?).
Logged
Feel free to join us at scolapasta's cards for discussion on any of my custom cards.

NoMoreFun

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1983
  • Respect: +2064
    • View Profile
Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #61 on: May 19, 2022, 05:06:10 pm »
+5

I was worried Corsair made Merchant Ship look bad, but I just played a game with both and Merchant Ship is nice payload when your Silvers and Golds aren't long for this world.
Logged

Gherald

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 676
  • Awe: +35
  • Respect: +1393
    • View Profile
Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #62 on: May 19, 2022, 09:06:34 pm »
0

Nice to know Merchant Ship still looks good when Silver and Gold aren't available to you
Logged
My opponent has more loot than me

Honkeyfresh

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 612
  • DSF lowest ratio upvotes-posts 14 yrs & counting
  • Respect: +221
    • View Profile
Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #63 on: May 19, 2022, 10:53:49 pm »
0

That lookout was kept over Ambassador is a travesty.
Logged
"Rap game Julio Franco, Chuck Norris, Texas Ranger/ Ice on my fingers look like I slap-boxed a penguin." -- Riff Raff Proverbs 4:20

"Sometimes I say some things people may think are just outlandish, but I'm going to have the last laugh." -- Riff Raff  Exodus 6:66

Gherald

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 676
  • Awe: +35
  • Respect: +1393
    • View Profile
Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #64 on: May 19, 2022, 11:42:04 pm »
+1

No, it is not. I mean yes I'd rather play with Ambassador myself (and would hope we can keep it around for 2P games), but I also have passing knowledge of target audiences and general game design issues. Funny how decisions get made based on a full set of considerations and not what you or I'd prefer :)
Logged
My opponent has more loot than me

Gherald

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 676
  • Awe: +35
  • Respect: +1393
    • View Profile
Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #65 on: May 19, 2022, 11:51:20 pm »
+12

Meanwhile on r/dominion..."Bon Voyage"

Logged
My opponent has more loot than me

CaptainTheo

  • Alchemist
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Respect: +36
    • View Profile
Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #66 on: May 23, 2022, 05:31:03 pm »
0

I'm fairly happy with the cards that got cut as I found most of them rather tedious and disruptive - surprising there were so many like that in Seaside as it's an expansion that I particularly like. Whereas the ones that were unexpectedly retained (such as Lookout, Merchant Ship, Treasure Map), I like more. The only one that I'll really miss is Pirate Ship, as I favour games with more than two players where it appears to be more effective. Explorer was ok too but it's one I could live without.

Of the new cards:
  • Sea Witch seems almost strictly better than the already-strong Witch, giving the same benefits on the current turn plus an extra benefit on the next turn equivalent to Dungeon's duration effect, with the only downside being that it can miss reshuffles.
  • Monkey feels like an Enchantress without the attack and can even be worse if for some reason your RHO doesn't gain a card at all. Granted, it is liable to be better later in the game, though even +3 cards next turn doesn't seem particularly powerful, given that Smithy reliably gives you those 3 cards immediately and only costs $1 more. I do like the concept of it too.
  • Sea Chart seems very weak. Given that there will usually be nothing but other non-terminal actions in play when you play it, it feel like you will get the extra card less than you will with either Vagrant or Patrician, yet it costs more! It also feels worse than Wishing Well, which costs the same and is considered weak. I still like the concept of this card. If it were priced at $2 it wouldn't feel so bad.
  • More generally, some of the new cards feel a bit complicated but I like how they have some original features not found in existing cards.
Logged

Gherald

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 676
  • Awe: +35
  • Respect: +1393
    • View Profile
Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #67 on: May 24, 2022, 05:10:30 am »
+1

3 cards at the start of a turn is way more useful than needing to play the equivalent of 3 labs (or village-smithy-lab) to net the same +3. Don't underestimate Monkey, the first to play 2 every turn (4 monkeys in deck) most often wins against 1 or 0 monkeys per turn since even if their deck is otherwise better it's hard for them to outpace without simply helping the one with 2 monkeys in play.

Sea Chart is certainly far more useful than Vagrant, closer to being like a Wishing Well that does (multi-)guessing for you. Patrician can eventually become better especially if you're kicking off turns with plays and there's not much else going on, but this requires a thin, high-cost deck which takes awhile to get and there's only 5 to go around. There's nothing to make it want to be more than a 2 cost, people would mostly ignore it much of the game, seldom reaching Emporium.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2022, 07:56:16 am by Gherald »
Logged
My opponent has more loot than me
Pages: 1 2 [3]  All
 

Page created in 0.054 seconds with 21 queries.