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Author Topic: Seaside 2E Preview 3  (Read 13213 times)

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Donald X.

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Seaside 2E Preview 3
« on: May 18, 2022, 03:00:10 am »
+14

The final three new cards for Seaside. The tension is palpable. Or would be if I left a big blank space here or something.



Explorer is fine. It's been complained about a lot over the years, but well, it's really not so bad. But it was borderline, it was a contender for going, and then I wanted to add Pirate, which is similar. So, out with Explorer.

Pirate gains a Gold next turn, or maybe some other Treasure, and maybe faster than it looks.



Pirate Ship for years has been one of the very weakest cards in the game. At the same time it terrifies casual multiplayer groups, where everyone buys it and so someone who bought it wins. It also requires tokens for again just a single card in the expansion.

I felt like some people would be sad to have no piratey shippy thing, so there's Corsair. It attacks Treasures in a way that doesn't help your opponents.



Ambassador! It's such a classic old Dominion card. At first it just looks silly; later you find out it's a powerhouse. It's not necessarily a problem in 2-player, though you get a sub-game of trashing down with Ambassadors before you get to the main game after that. But in multiplayer, it can just shut you out. As with Ghost Ship, you don't get to see your deck.

Sailor is unrelated, other than also covering trashing. It's a Duration card that ties into Duration cards, by letting them leap into play. And if there aren't any other ones on the board, well it can work with another Sailor.

But wait, there's more. A few cards got errata. My philosophy has shifted on "while in play"; now I think it's way more confusing than "this turn." For some years there I thought the opposite; let's hope I don't reverse again there. So, Lighthouse has a different phrasing to get rid of "while in play." And then Treasury wanted to not be in the tiny font if possible. And it was possible. Here's the whole set, with all current wordings / images, only small.



I know what you're thinking. What about Lookout and Merchant Ship? I always thought casual players hated Lookout, but when I actually polled some, they didn't. And they absolutely loved Merchant Ship, even though for experts it was a shoe-in to go, one of the first cards any of them would think of replacing. And then I had a new Explorer too. So Lookout and Merchant Ship survived (secret history: if I'd replaced Lookout, it would have been with Sentinel). And whatever else you want to ask about probably has a similar story. I got to replace 9 cards, counting blanks; some work went into those choices. Lots of people weighed in, and I playtested the removed cards too, for just how replace-worthy they were.

There you have it, Seaside 2E! I hope you like it. I'll have a little more to say about the cards in the Secret History. And somehow Prosperity 2E will follow just a few weeks after Seaside 2E (there is no more precise date yet okay).
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Awaclus

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2022, 03:17:56 am »
+22

Now they can all be the best $5 ever.
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2022, 04:02:50 am »
+5

Merchant Ship: An old card that never changed.
...
Wharf: The original version didn't have the +1 Buy. It got that to compare more favorably to Merchant Ship.
And some decisions are forever :O
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2022, 04:12:34 am »
+2

Governor + Pirate looks like a fun combo.
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2022, 04:15:03 am »
+4

I'm surprised that Cutpurse made it, and sad that Ghost ship and Ambassador got cut. But all in all I think the choice of replaced Cards is pretty good actually.
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2022, 05:46:17 am »
+2

I thought it was interesting that Sailor can let you play Night-Duration cards during your Action or Buy phase.. but no particularly odd interactions there.
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2022, 05:54:21 am »
+5

Im surprised that Treasure map made it!
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2022, 06:29:01 am »
+6

Merchant Ship: An old card that never changed.
...
Wharf: The original version didn't have the +1 Buy. It got that to compare more favorably to Merchant Ship.
And some decisions are forever :O

Those decisions were based on some really solid reasoning. Wharf with the +buy does indeed compare extremely favorably to Merchant Ship.
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2022, 07:53:44 am »
0

If I play Sailor and then play Blockade, gaining Caravan, do I get to play the Caravan? Or no, because Blockade set it aside?
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2022, 07:58:42 am »
+4

Im a little surprised that since island remained in game that it wasnt erratad to make the mat for it an exile mat.  Seams silly that in a game with island and exiles in play you would need to bring out two mats still when they behave so similarly. 
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2022, 08:02:33 am »
+1

If I play Sailor and then play Blockade, gaining Caravan, do I get to play the Caravan? Or no, because Blockade set it aside?
You can choose to use Sailor's ability, just like you could choose to use, say, Cargo Ship or Innovation's ability. All these things are optional ("You may"). If you don't use an optional ability, the instructions of Blockade proceed and apply as normal.
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2022, 08:16:09 am »
+3

Im a little surprised that since island remained in game that it wasnt erratad to make the mat for it an exile mat.  Seams silly that in a game with island and exiles in play you would need to bring out two mats still when they behave so similarly.
But itd be the only Exile card in the expansion. If any change would be made it should be to just set it aside under the Island.
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2022, 08:21:16 am »
+6

Im a little surprised that since island remained in game that it wasnt erratad to make the mat for it an exile mat.  Seams silly that in a game with island and exiles in play you would need to bring out two mats still when they behave so similarly.

Island with Exile plays a little differently, as you can get your Islands back off the mat by gaining one. That could actually be relevant in gameplay.

I'm more surprised it wasn't reworded not to need a mat at all ("set aside for the rest of the game"). Native Village could also be reworded to avoid mats but it seems like mats was easier.
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2022, 08:29:08 am »
+1

I'm surprised Cutpurse wasn't errata'd to only attack larger hand sizes
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2022, 08:39:33 am »
0

I love duration carts, so I am happy to see all those new duration carts, but  I think that if you play with only seaside, there are too many of them.
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2022, 09:04:34 am »
0

I'm surprised Cutpurse wasn't errata'd to only attack larger hand sizes
Probably because it would occur rarely, and almost never influence the game in a meaningful way. So why bother adding more words to this card.
And it'd also be a nerf to an already weak card, so I don't really see a reason to change it.
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2022, 09:15:11 am »
+1

If I play Sailor and then play Blockade, gaining Caravan, do I get to play the Caravan? Or no, because Blockade set it aside?
You can choose to use Sailor's ability, just like you could choose to use, say, Cargo Ship or Innovation's ability. All these things are optional ("You may"). If you don't use an optional ability, the instructions of Blockade proceed and apply as normal.

I don't know about this. I think Blockade forcibly sets the card aside, without visiting the discard pile. So, the card is already set aside when Sailor gets to choose to play it. But I don't think it can move it out of set-aside land, and with the new rules requirement of a card needing to move into play to be played the first time (to allow thrones to replay cards that left play after the first play), Sailor cannot play the card gained with Blockade.
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Gherald

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2022, 09:16:46 am »
+3

There is no doubt. Sailor can play the card the moment it is gained, before Blockade sets it aside.

Edit: Another fun fact for people who haven't yet read Blockade closely, is that the embargo/curse effect only applies while Blockade has its gained card set aside. Anything that interferes with the card remaining set aside by Blockade (such as Sailor putting it into play!), stops the embargo curse effect from happening.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 09:53:15 am by Gherald »
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J Reggie

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2022, 09:19:03 am »
+6

What surprises me the most is that now Seaside, the 3rd set, has a way to play Action cards (and Night cards) in your buy phase. I guess it's not that much of a problem rules-wise, but I've always seen that as at least a 12th set thing, potentially confusing to newer players. But I'm sure Donald knows what he's doing!

GendoIkari

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2022, 09:33:44 am »
+5

So what's the deal with the mats? Are Island and Native Village mats being re-drawn to look like they should only have 2 mats? The german promotional image/spoiler shows the other 2 mats with their original artwork. But Pirate Ship was the middle of the 3!
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 09:34:50 am by GendoIkari »
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2022, 09:59:35 am »
+2

Currently I am leaning towards, Villa (and pals) will actually end the Buy phase. This can trigger Wine Merchant, Exploration, Pageant, Merchant Guild.

The idea is just, if we asked a casual player, wouldn't they say that the Buy phase ended? I mean after gaining Villa you're no longer in it. We call that "ending."

This would allow the errata'd Treasury to topdeck itself when returning to the Action phase. Not too big of an issue, but it could lead to tracking difficulties for Coins on your turn.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 10:01:47 am by NiCkLeB474 »
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2022, 10:01:32 am »
+3

What surprises me the most is that now Seaside, the 3rd set, has a way to play Action cards (and Night cards) in your buy phase. I guess it's not that much of a problem rules-wise, but I've always seen that as at least a 12th set thing, potentially confusing to newer players. But I'm sure Donald knows what he's doing!

It's definitely confusing for new players. It's especially difficult to explain that they can't play drawn Treasures. It would be nice if there were a Treasure phase and a Buy phase, but sadly that's not the case. And honestly I don't know how much it would help anyway.
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2022, 10:03:49 am »
+1

So what's the deal with the mats? Are Island and Native Village mats being re-drawn to look like they should only have 2 mats? The german promotional image/spoiler shows the other 2 mats with their original artwork. But Pirate Ship was the middle of the 3!

If you never knew about Pirate Ship, I doubt most people would realize there was ever a third mat in between them. It seems nonsensical to create new art to solve what doesn't seem to be a problem.

I'll miss the triptych as well, but rare was the game that actually used all three mats.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2022, 10:13:38 am »
+5

So what's the deal with the mats? Are Island and Native Village mats being re-drawn to look like they should only have 2 mats? The german promotional image/spoiler shows the other 2 mats with their original artwork. But Pirate Ship was the middle of the 3!

If you never knew about Pirate Ship, I doubt most people would realize there was ever a third mat in between them. It seems nonsensical to create new art to solve what doesn't seem to be a problem.

I'll miss the triptych as well, but rare was the game that actually used all three mats.

This makes me a little sad... even if you rarely needed all 3 mats in the same game, the fact is that the components were created that way; putting the 3 mats together did make a single continuous muriel. And that was a very cool thing about Seaside, I remember in my early Dominion days always putting all 3 mats out together when I played a game that needed any mat. Just because it was cool. It seems very weird to just now take the middle of those 3 mats and remove them from newer boxes.
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Gherald

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2022, 10:31:01 am »
+5

Errata: Place all Silvers and Golds trashed by Corsair on the Pirate Ship mat.

Problems, we solve them 8)

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2022, 10:47:34 am »
+9

Gotta say, getting rid of Ambassador is a real bummer, especially since the replacement doesn't preserve any remnants of its effect. If people really hate attacks they don't have to play with them.
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2022, 11:15:34 am »
0

Gotta say, getting rid of Ambassador is a real bummer, especially since the replacement doesn't preserve any remnants of its effect.

It preserves the remnants that it's a trasher, and depending on your turn 3-4 draws, it can be ridiculously amazing or absolute garbage.
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Gherald

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2022, 11:47:59 am »
+6

I'm going to miss playing estate tennis

Ambassador should be made an honorary promo, such a great card for 2P games
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2022, 12:31:44 pm »
+1

There is no doubt. Sailor can play the card the moment it is gained, before Blockade sets it aside.

Edit: Another fun fact for people who haven't yet read Blockade closely, is that the embargo/curse effect only applies while Blockade has its gained card set aside. Anything that interferes with the card remaining set aside by Blockade (such as Sailor putting it into play!), stops the embargo curse effect from happening.

Testing it online on dominion.games, what happens is you can't stop blockade from setting the card aside, since that's the gain location set by blockade (it doesn't visit the discard pile). But then, Sailor doesn't lose track of the card, and it can move the gained card into play from set-aside land. It's similar to how you still gain villa to hand when gaining it with Armory.

Edit: gaining Villa with Blockade will also have the Villa moving to your hand, which suggests that no stop-moving event occurs when you gain something with Blockade, and for that to be true the gained card has to not have moved from the discard pile, I think. Meaning, Blockade moving a card from the supply to the set aside zone during gaining is an atomic thing that cannot be broken down further into steps you can react between.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 12:36:20 pm by markusin »
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2022, 12:43:04 pm »
0

Glad to see Ambassador go (my longest banned card) its pretty broken even in two-player.
Sad to see Explorer go (massively undervalued card) . 
I wont miss pirate ship but I am concerned 5-2 splits are going to see more kingdoms where they are dominant.   Too many 5-2 deck destructors can unbalance the game from the start.  That was one of the problems with saboteur (other than it being a bad buy for anything else).

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2022, 01:07:38 pm »
+2

Sad to see Explorer go (massively undervalued card)

If Pirate didn't also gain Treasures to hand, possibly Explorer might have stayed and e.g. Merchant Ship could have been cut instead. But how many Gold gainers does one set need? So in this case a card that left was somewhat a function of the new cards added.

I will also miss Explorer.
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2022, 02:31:14 pm »
0

If a Corsair is in play, does the first played Silver or Gold by another player have any effect before it is trashed? Do you still get the $2 or $3, or is it just immediately trashed with no effect?
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2022, 02:47:31 pm »
+2

If a Corsair is in play, does the first played Silver or Gold by another player have any effect before it is trashed? Do you still get the $2 or $3, or is it just immediately trashed with no effect?

You get the effect after you've trashed the treasure.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2022, 02:50:21 pm »
+1

I didn't realize before reading that question that Corsair uses a weird wording. There's no "when". I guess "each other player trashes the first Silver or Gold they play each turn" is supposed to be read as "when each other player plays their first Silver or Gold each turn, they first trash it"?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 04:33:14 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2022, 03:13:21 pm »
0

It seems like Pirate would end up being most commonly played by its reaction, and rarely played as an ordinary Action. With Scheme and two Pirates, you could end up with a ton of Golds, with each Pirate's gain triggering the other Pirate's reaction!
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2022, 04:35:16 pm »
+3

If a Corsair is in play, does the first played Silver or Gold by another player have any effect before it is trashed? Do you still get the $2 or $3, or is it just immediately trashed with no effect?

You get the effect after you've trashed the treasure.

I didn't realize before reading that question that Corsair uses a weird wording. There's no "when". I guess "each other player trashes the first Silver or Gold they play each turn" is supposed to be read as "when each other player plays their first Silver or Gold each turn, they first trash it"?

There's no implicit "first". By default, "when" means "after". First you put the Silver or Gold into play, then you get the +Coins from it, then you trash it.
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2022, 04:47:02 pm »
0

If a Corsair is in play, does the first played Silver or Gold by another player have any effect before it is trashed? Do you still get the $2 or $3, or is it just immediately trashed with no effect?

You get the effect after you've trashed the treasure.

I didn't realize before reading that question that Corsair uses a weird wording. There's no "when". I guess "each other player trashes the first Silver or Gold they play each turn" is supposed to be read as "when each other player plays their first Silver or Gold each turn, they first trash it"?

There's no implicit "first". By default, "when" means "after". First you put the Silver or Gold into play, then you get the +Coins from it, then you trash it.

I was wondering about that, but based my alternate wording off of Awaclus's answer. Royal Carriage uses "directly after you finish player an action card", but you're saying that "when you play an action card" would work the exact same way? Are there any cards that say "when you play" without a "first"?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 04:48:59 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2022, 05:02:04 pm »
0

Kinda cute how texts go from "when you buy" to "when you gain during your Buy Phase". First Merchant Guild, now Treasury. It definitely makes the cards fit more organically with events that feel like buying cards, such as Alms and Ride. I'm really curious how Goons is going to be in Prosperity E2.

The errata Treasury got also kills its incredible synergy with Dominate.

Two of the cards that were revealed today are actually more like modern-expansion cards. Sailor is really a Renaissance card, as that card lets you play cards outside of their intended phase. Pirate is a Menagerie card, as it's a card that can play itself through its reaction.

And I'm glad that Seaside has now Duration Attacks; it was kinda lame how all attacks of the Duration introducing expansion were non-Durations. It is kinda ironic that the only attack that survived the cut, Cutpurse, is the attack that IMO was most deserving of a cut. As it's basically just a really shitty Militia.
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2022, 05:09:47 pm »
+1

VERY happy that Lookout survived. One of my favorite cards.

I wouldn't have minded seeing both Merchant Ship and Treasury get cut.

I have mixed feelings about Ambassador. I think it ended up being less interesting than it seemed at first. Most of the time you're just passing Estates and Coppers back and forth, which can be frustrating and tedious. Doing devilish things like handing out Curses and Potions didn't come up much in any of the games I played.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 05:21:36 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2022, 05:23:29 pm »
+1

Are there any cards that say "when you play" without a "first"?
I was thinking about this the other day. Enchantress.
I think anything that said "instead of following its instructions" wouldn't really need the "first". I made a fan card along those lines and reckoned that I didn't need a "first".
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2022, 05:26:51 pm »
0

Are there any cards that say "when you play" without a "first"?
I was thinking about this the other day. Enchantress.
I think anything that said "instead of following its instructions" wouldn't really need the "first". I made a fan card along those lines and reckoned that I didn't need a "first".

There was some discussion before about how Enchantress can't be read literally though. You have to have an implied "would" in there somewhere for it to make sense ("instead" without "would" never makes sense really). In the case of Enchantress, the "correct" wording would be "when you would follow a card's instructions" rather than "when you play a card".

Updated Citadel is the same; it says "when you play" but that's not literally how it should be read.

As far as I know there hasn't been a real "when you play" effect until Corsair; and ironically it doesn't use "when you play" wording.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 05:32:22 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2022, 06:06:51 pm »
+4

What surprises me the most is that now Seaside, the 3rd set, has a way to play Action cards (and Night cards) in your buy phase. I guess it's not that much of a problem rules-wise, but I've always seen that as at least a 12th set thing, potentially confusing to newer players. But I'm sure Donald knows what he's doing!

And additionally, Sailor can also let you play a Treasure (Astrolabe) in your Action phase (if you gain it during your Action phase, e.g. with Smugglers).
I think it's the only card that allows you to play all three types of playable cards (Actions, Nights and Treasures) in the "wrong" phase. :o
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2022, 07:22:51 pm »
0

Just hitting the Enhance button...

https://i.imgur.com/ozDAy1c.jpg
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2022, 08:19:31 pm »
+1

If a Corsair is in play, does the first played Silver or Gold by another player have any effect before it is trashed? Do you still get the $2 or $3, or is it just immediately trashed with no effect?

You get the effect after you've trashed the treasure.

I didn't realize before reading that question that Corsair uses a weird wording. There's no "when". I guess "each other player trashes the first Silver or Gold they play each turn" is supposed to be read as "when each other player plays their first Silver or Gold each turn, they first trash it"?

There's no implicit "first". By default, "when" means "after". First you put the Silver or Gold into play, then you get the +Coins from it, then you trash it.

So, presumably if you had both Highwayman and Corsair in play, if the first Treasure you play is a Silver or Gold, it just gets trashed without giving you the +coins?
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2022, 08:38:30 pm »
+1

If a Corsair is in play, does the first played Silver or Gold by another player have any effect before it is trashed? Do you still get the $2 or $3, or is it just immediately trashed with no effect?

You get the effect after you've trashed the treasure.

I didn't realize before reading that question that Corsair uses a weird wording. There's no "when". I guess "each other player trashes the first Silver or Gold they play each turn" is supposed to be read as "when each other player plays their first Silver or Gold each turn, they first trash it"?

There's no implicit "first". By default, "when" means "after". First you put the Silver or Gold into play, then you get the +Coins from it, then you trash it.

So, presumably if you had both Highwayman and Corsair in play, if the first Treasure you play is a Silver or Gold, it just gets trashed without giving you the +coins?

Yeah, though that should be the same no matter which order Corsair worked in.
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2022, 01:54:45 am »
+1

There was some discussion before about how Enchantress can't be read literally though. You have to have an implied "would" in there somewhere for it to make sense ("instead" without "would" never makes sense really). In the case of Enchantress, the "correct" wording would be "when you would follow a card's instructions" rather than "when you play a card".

Updated Citadel is the same; it says "when you play" but that's not literally how it should be read.

As far as I know there hasn't been a real "when you play" effect until Corsair; and ironically it doesn't use "when you play" wording.

The general idea is that "When you do X" happens after X. That is also true when X is "play", but unfortunately the Enchantress-like effects (Enchantress, Ways, Highwayman) have also used that wording. As has been said, those effects can usually be distinguished because they explicitely "meddle with" the execution of the card, which Corsair does not mention anything about.

Space permitting, the "after" is sometimes explictely spelled out, like just recently on Fellowship of Scribes. That shouldn't mean it isn't the exact same timing (well, I don't think there is a Way for Silver/Gold to be an Action also), but another example is opponent's Corsair +  your Merchant. If you play the first Silver that turn later, both trigger at exactly the same time and are ordered in the same timing window (which usually doesn't matter).
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2022, 01:56:37 am »
+2

Now they can all be the best $5 ever.

Is this an in-joke?  I went back and read the OP and I can't figure out what this is in reference to.  Help please!
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2022, 02:09:39 am »
+4

Basically. Ten years ago:
Again some people complain about various other cards but I am having none of it. Pirate Ship is weak but I don't think it should be stronger. I like Treasure Map as is. Fishing Village and Wharf are strong engine-enablers and well we are talking good times there. Pearl Diver and Navigator are not prized, but they look reasonable to me, and as I have said many times, if I made all cards better by making them maximally complex, the game would have no players. Explorer is fine, why do people even complain about Explorer. They can't all be the best $5 ever.
Then it just became a famous dominion turn of phrase when discussing cards that are weaker than others yet seem fine the way they are.
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2022, 02:13:30 am »
+1

There's no implicit "first". By default, "when" means "after". First you put the Silver or Gold into play, then you get the +Coins from it, then you trash it.

Wait, when did that get changed? When-play definitely used to happen after you put the card into play, but before you execute its effects. According to the wiki, it still does, but I guess that could be out of date.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2022, 02:14:54 am by Awaclus »
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #49 on: May 19, 2022, 02:24:50 am »
0

Im surprised that Treasure map made it!
Yeah Treasure Map could have used some self synergy, for instance a simple: "When you gain this, you may put it on top of your deck".
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #50 on: May 19, 2022, 04:16:53 am »
+1

As far as I know there hasn't been a real "when you play" effect until Corsair; and ironically it doesn't use "when you play" wording.

There are Merchant, Sauna and Champion. It was ruled that these were all "after-resolve", like Coin of the Realm and Royal Carriage. But then Champion got errata, so that it's "first", like Reactions. (The "first" still seems to be missing from the card though, at least in the wiki.)

Of course, until not so long ago, all Reactions said "when another player plays", and we just needed to know that they were supposed be happen first and not after.

There's no implicit "first". By default, "when" means "after". First you put the Silver or Gold into play, then you get the +Coins from it, then you trash it.

Wait, when did that get changed? When-play definitely used to happen after you put the card into play, but before you execute its effects. According to the wiki, it still does, but I guess that could be out of date.

The wiki is wrong. Merchant and Sauna don't belong there. There was some discussion of them possibly being timed as Reactions (not as Enchantress), but Donald ruled that they are "after".
That page also has other mistakes, btw.

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2022, 04:32:33 am »
+1

I don't think Corsair has a good phrasing. "Until then, each other player" seems weird. "Each other player" means that each player does something in turn. What is really meant is "Until then, the first time another player plays a Silver or Gold each turn". Highwayman has the same problem, but doesn't seem quite so off.

A problem with both cards is that in terms of timing, "each other player" is supposed to mean that the effect is resolved by the player being addressed.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2022, 10:38:21 am by Jeebus »
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2022, 05:30:29 am »
+1

Of course, until not so long ago, all Reactions said "when another player plays", and we just needed to know that they were supposed be happen first and not after.

So did Urchin.
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #53 on: May 19, 2022, 06:57:09 am »
+4

Fall expansion?!?
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #54 on: May 19, 2022, 07:28:14 am »
+2

So... I play Sauna and then Silver, trashing a Lich from my hand. I choose to gain a card with two types, so my opponent plays Falconer using Way of the Mouse with Vassal, hitting Corsair. Now I have to trash the Silver I played, if it was my first.

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #55 on: May 19, 2022, 09:32:26 am »
+1

Fall expansion?!?

Fall expansion!

Y'know, assuming not too many delays.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #56 on: May 19, 2022, 10:30:41 am »
+1

There was some discussion before about how Enchantress can't be read literally though. You have to have an implied "would" in there somewhere for it to make sense ("instead" without "would" never makes sense really). In the case of Enchantress, the "correct" wording would be "when you would follow a card's instructions" rather than "when you play a card".

Updated Citadel is the same; it says "when you play" but that's not literally how it should be read.

As far as I know there hasn't been a real "when you play" effect until Corsair; and ironically it doesn't use "when you play" wording.

The general idea is that "When you do X" happens after X. That is also true when X is "play", but unfortunately the Enchantress-like effects (Enchantress, Ways, Highwayman) have also used that wording. As has been said, those effects can usually be distinguished because they explicitely "meddle with" the execution of the card, which Corsair does not mention anything about.

Space permitting, the "after" is sometimes explictely spelled out, like just recently on Fellowship of Scribes. That shouldn't mean it isn't the exact same timing (well, I don't think there is a Way for Silver/Gold to be an Action also), but another example is opponent's Corsair +  your Merchant. If you play the first Silver that turn later, both trigger at exactly the same time and are ordered in the same timing window (which usually doesn't matter).

This all makes sense, it just seems like an unfortunate leap to have to make to know when you trash that Silver or Gold; since the wording of the ability only tells you that you trash it; without any "when" or "the first time" to tell you.
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #57 on: May 19, 2022, 10:43:01 am »
+1

Fall expansion?!?

Fall expansion!

Y'know, assuming not too many delays.

Its an expensive and fantastic time to be a Dominion addict!
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #58 on: May 19, 2022, 10:46:41 am »
0

Fall expansion?!?

Fall expansion!

Y'know, assuming not too many delays.

Wow, that's neat! We're getting a lot of Dominion this year.
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #59 on: May 19, 2022, 10:55:54 am »
0

Fall expansion?!?

What's the context of this post? Was fall expansion mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread?
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #60 on: May 19, 2022, 10:59:42 am »
+4

Fall expansion?!?

What's the context of this post? Was fall expansion mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread?

From the secret history:
Quote
I usually have a section going on about outtakes. Seaside 2E though was worked on at the same time as both Allies and the fall expansion (fall expansion?).
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #61 on: May 19, 2022, 05:06:10 pm »
+5

I was worried Corsair made Merchant Ship look bad, but I just played a game with both and Merchant Ship is nice payload when your Silvers and Golds aren't long for this world.
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #62 on: May 19, 2022, 09:06:34 pm »
0

Nice to know Merchant Ship still looks good when Silver and Gold aren't available to you
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #63 on: May 19, 2022, 10:53:49 pm »
0

That lookout was kept over Ambassador is a travesty.
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #64 on: May 19, 2022, 11:42:04 pm »
+1

No, it is not. I mean yes I'd rather play with Ambassador myself (and would hope we can keep it around for 2P games), but I also have passing knowledge of target audiences and general game design issues. Funny how decisions get made based on a full set of considerations and not what you or I'd prefer :)
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #65 on: May 19, 2022, 11:51:20 pm »
+12

Meanwhile on r/dominion..."Bon Voyage"

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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #66 on: May 23, 2022, 05:31:03 pm »
0

I'm fairly happy with the cards that got cut as I found most of them rather tedious and disruptive - surprising there were so many like that in Seaside as it's an expansion that I particularly like. Whereas the ones that were unexpectedly retained (such as Lookout, Merchant Ship, Treasure Map), I like more. The only one that I'll really miss is Pirate Ship, as I favour games with more than two players where it appears to be more effective. Explorer was ok too but it's one I could live without.

Of the new cards:
  • Sea Witch seems almost strictly better than the already-strong Witch, giving the same benefits on the current turn plus an extra benefit on the next turn equivalent to Dungeon's duration effect, with the only downside being that it can miss reshuffles.
  • Monkey feels like an Enchantress without the attack and can even be worse if for some reason your RHO doesn't gain a card at all. Granted, it is liable to be better later in the game, though even +3 cards next turn doesn't seem particularly powerful, given that Smithy reliably gives you those 3 cards immediately and only costs $1 more. I do like the concept of it too.
  • Sea Chart seems very weak. Given that there will usually be nothing but other non-terminal actions in play when you play it, it feel like you will get the extra card less than you will with either Vagrant or Patrician, yet it costs more! It also feels worse than Wishing Well, which costs the same and is considered weak. I still like the concept of this card. If it were priced at $2 it wouldn't feel so bad.
  • More generally, some of the new cards feel a bit complicated but I like how they have some original features not found in existing cards.
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Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« Reply #67 on: May 24, 2022, 05:10:30 am »
+1

3 cards at the start of a turn is way more useful than needing to play the equivalent of 3 labs (or village-smithy-lab) to net the same +3. Don't underestimate Monkey, the first to play 2 every turn (4 monkeys in deck) most often wins against 1 or 0 monkeys per turn since even if their deck is otherwise better it's hard for them to outpace without simply helping the one with 2 monkeys in play.

Sea Chart is certainly far more useful than Vagrant, closer to being like a Wishing Well that does (multi-)guessing for you. Patrician can eventually become better especially if you're kicking off turns with plays and there's not much else going on, but this requires a thin, high-cost deck which takes awhile to get and there's only 5 to go around. There's nothing to make it want to be more than a 2 cost, people would mostly ignore it much of the game, seldom reaching Emporium.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2022, 07:56:16 am by Gherald »
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