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Author Topic: Duration and Way of the Squirrel  (Read 6105 times)

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AJD

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2022, 05:15:03 pm »
0

The Way is not really something the card does, based on the fact that the Way causes you to do something else instead of what the card does but a Way (or Enchantress) can't further cause you to do something else instead of that. That's in the Menageie rulebook. And you ruled that Chameleon works the same way; you're not doing what the card says anymore at all.

Jeebus, your interpretation was wrong in that thread from 2020, and it's still wrong, but apparently nobody up to and including Donald X. telling you in so many words that according to the rules the Way is something that the card does can convince you that the Way is something that the card does.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2022, 05:17:23 pm by AJD »
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AJD

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2022, 05:20:19 pm »
+1

Currently I am leaning towards, Durations using Way of the Squirrel will not stay out, because absolutely no-one ever except oops someone sometime and hence this thread, will think they possibly stay out in that situation.

I think this is clearly the best ruling! Does this imply that, in general, a card having an effect at the last part of cleanup isn't enough to trigger the Duration stay-in-play rule? (I.e., that "Outpost makes you draw a smaller hand" isn't why Outpost stays in play, but rather "Outpost triggers an additional turn" is why Outpost stays in play?)
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GendoIkari

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2022, 05:40:14 pm »
+2

Currently I am leaning towards, Durations using Way of the Squirrel will not stay out, because absolutely no-one ever except oops someone sometime and hence this thread, will think they possibly stay out in that situation.

I think this is clearly the best ruling! Does this imply that, in general, a card having an effect at the last part of cleanup isn't enough to trigger the Duration stay-in-play rule? (I.e., that "Outpost makes you draw a smaller hand" isn't why Outpost stays in play, but rather "Outpost triggers an additional turn" is why Outpost stays in play?)

I'm inclined to agree, but far from "clearly" for me. I guess the general thing is, most people are going to think of duration as meaning "next turn", rather than "later this same turn after cleanup".
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Oyvind

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2022, 07:59:06 pm »
0

I believe this would sort itself out if the official rules stated:

- Each Way gives Action cards an additional option: you can play the Action for what it normally does, or play it to do what the Way says to do.
and
- If the card you are playing is a Duration card, it only stays in play if at least one of its plays was for what it normally does. If it does stay in play, you will have to remember for your next turn how many times you actually played the Duration for what it normally does.

or

- Each Way gives Action cards an additional option: you can play the Action for its own abilities, or play it to do what the Way says to do.
and
- If the card you are playing is a Duration card, it only stays in play if at least one of its plays was for its own abilities. If it does stay in play, you will have to remember for your next turn how many times you actually played the Duration card for its own abilities.

I donít know if I understand this correctly, but to me, it seems like these two rule sets say exactly the same thing, just in different ways. If Iím correct, keeping to one of these wordings (or the other; it doesnít really matter which one of them you use) will make it clear you wonít keep the duration card in play for multiple rounds, if you only played it for what the Way says to do, no matter the timing of the effect of the Way, whether itís played as a Chameleon, Mouse, Squirrel or any other Way.
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Jeebus

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2022, 02:43:16 am »
0

The Way is not really something the card does, based on the fact that the Way causes you to do something else instead of what the card does but a Way (or Enchantress) can't further cause you to do something else instead of that. That's in the Menageie rulebook. And you ruled that Chameleon works the same way; you're not doing what the card says anymore at all.

Jeebus, your interpretation was wrong in that thread from 2020, and it's still wrong, but apparently nobody up to and including Donald X. telling you in so many words that according to the rules the Way is something that the card does can convince you that the Way is something that the card does.

 :o You guys stopped arguing in that thread after Donald said he agreed with me.
At some point you had to resort to stating that you didn't care (your words) what Donald had said about how Ways work, in order to support your position.
You can continue arguing your point though, but lets do it in the other thread. (Maybe you can respond to what you had to "think about" after you realized there was a hole in your argument that I had been pointing out almost from the start.)

For the topic in this thread though, it doesn't matter. All that matters is how Chameleon and Mouse work work with Durations. They cause the Duration to stay, so Squirrel does to, according to the rules.

Jeebus

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2022, 02:46:44 am »
0

Currently I am leaning towards, Durations using Way of the Squirrel will not stay out, because absolutely no-one ever except oops someone sometime and hence this thread, will think they possibly stay out in that situation.

I think this is clearly the best ruling! Does this imply that, in general, a card having an effect at the last part of cleanup isn't enough to trigger the Duration stay-in-play rule? (I.e., that "Outpost makes you draw a smaller hand" isn't why Outpost stays in play, but rather "Outpost triggers an additional turn" is why Outpost stays in play?)

I assume not, since Donald also stated in this thread that Durations work the way he said they worked in 2010: they stay in play as long as they have something left to do.

To me it just seems like a special ruling for Way of the Squirrel, since otherwise it would quite often behave differently than what most anybody would think.

Jeebus

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2022, 02:50:13 am »
0

I believe this would sort itself out if the official rules stated:

- Each Way gives Action cards an additional option: you can play the Action for what it normally does, or play it to do what the Way says to do.
and
- If the card you are playing is a Duration card, it only stays in play if at least one of its plays was for what it normally does. If it does stay in play, you will have to remember for your next turn how many times you actually played the Duration for what it normally does.

or

- Each Way gives Action cards an additional option: you can play the Action for its own abilities, or play it to do what the Way says to do.
and
- If the card you are playing is a Duration card, it only stays in play if at least one of its plays was for its own abilities. If it does stay in play, you will have to remember for your next turn how many times you actually played the Duration card for its own abilities.

I donít know if I understand this correctly, but to me, it seems like these two rule sets say exactly the same thing, just in different ways. If Iím correct, keeping to one of these wordings (or the other; it doesnít really matter which one of them you use) will make it clear you wonít keep the duration card in play for multiple rounds, if you only played it for what the Way says to do, no matter the timing of the effect of the Way, whether itís played as a Chameleon, Mouse, Squirrel or any other Way.

But the rule is that you do keep the Duration in play with Chameleon and Mouse. I doubt Donald is going to change that.

Oyvind

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2022, 03:24:12 am »
0

I believe this would sort itself out if the official rules stated:

- Each Way gives Action cards an additional option: you can play the Action for what it normally does, or play it to do what the Way says to do.
and
- If the card you are playing is a Duration card, it only stays in play if at least one of its plays was for what it normally does. If it does stay in play, you will have to remember for your next turn how many times you actually played the Duration for what it normally does.

or

- Each Way gives Action cards an additional option: you can play the Action for its own abilities, or play it to do what the Way says to do.
and
- If the card you are playing is a Duration card, it only stays in play if at least one of its plays was for its own abilities. If it does stay in play, you will have to remember for your next turn how many times you actually played the Duration card for its own abilities.

I donít know if I understand this correctly, but to me, it seems like these two rule sets say exactly the same thing, just in different ways. If Iím correct, keeping to one of these wordings (or the other; it doesnít really matter which one of them you use) will make it clear you wonít keep the duration card in play for multiple rounds, if you only played it for what the Way says to do, no matter the timing of the effect of the Way, whether itís played as a Chameleon, Mouse, Squirrel or any other Way.

But the rule is that you do keep the Duration in play with Chameleon and Mouse. I doubt Donald is going to change that.

When it comes to Way of the Chameleon, youíre obviously right. Sorry, my bad. I havenít seen such a ruling for Way of the Mouse, though. Maybe I just missed it. If Iíve read the rules correctly, the only thing that matters, when it comes to the Way of the Mouse, as far as I can tell, is if the set-aside card is a Duration, not if the card you play as a Mouse is a Duration. The set-aside card isnít in play, so the ruling will only affect the played card. Are you saying that if I play a Merchant Ship using the Way of the Mouse, which has a Moat set-aside, the Merchant Ship stays in play? Maybe it is so, but I really donít see the logic behind that ruling. Can someone please link to where this is stated? I really want to understand this.

The Way of the Squirrel is quite different, though, IMHO. I donít think it should matter whether you play a Menagerie or a Lighthouse using the Way of the Squirrel. If it does, why? Or are we going to apply the Duration rule to any action card played as a Squirrel?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2022, 03:31:28 am by Oyvind »
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AJD

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2022, 03:54:49 am »
+1

Jeebus, I apologize; it was uncalled-for and unkind of me to restart that argument, and it would be unproductive for me to continue it now. I still disagree with you, but that's okay, and I didn't have to be a jerk and drag out two-year-old arguments that will just make everyone irritated including us. I'm sorry.
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Jeebus

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2022, 04:32:51 am »
0

When it comes to Way of the Chameleon, youíre obviously right. Sorry, my bad. I havenít seen such a ruling for Way of the Mouse, though. Maybe I just missed it. If Iíve read the rules correctly, the only thing that matters, when it comes to the Way of the Mouse, as far as I can tell, is if the set-aside card is a Duration, not if the card you play as a Mouse is a Duration. The set-aside card isnít in play, so the ruling will only affect the played card. Are you saying that if I play a Merchant Ship using the Way of the Mouse, which has a Moat set-aside, the Merchant Ship stays in play? Maybe it is so, but I really donít see the logic behind that ruling. Can someone please link to where this is stated? I really want to understand this.

The Way of the Squirrel is quite different, though, IMHO. I donít think it should matter whether you play a Menagerie or a Lighthouse using the Way of the Squirrel. If it does, why? Or are we going to apply the Duration rule to any action card played as a Squirrel?

No, it's only if the set-aside card is a Duration that the played card stays.
But it's still the same principle as Way of the Chameleon.

For Chameleon the relevant rule is that Durations (that aren't done) stay in play.
For Mouse the relevant rule is that "leaving it there" cards (like BoM) stay in play as long as the card they played stays in play. (When a BoM plays a Fishing Village from the supply, the BoM stays in play.)

In theory, we could say that playing a card with a Way means that the card is now doing what the Way says. This is like the instrucions on the card changing. In that case it's clear:
Chameleon: The played Duration is setting up a future effect, so it stays.
Mouse: The played card plays a set-aside Duration "leaving it there" (and the Duration is setting up a future effect), so the played card stays.
Squirrel: The played Duration is setting up a future effect (at end of turn), so it stays.

On the other hand, if we say that the card doesn't do anything when we play it since we're following the Way's instructions instead, then neither Chameleon, Mouse or Squirrel would cause the played card to stay: It's not the played card doing the thing that would cause it to stay in play.

I say that the second option is true. The reason why Chameleon, Mouse or Squirrel still cause the Duration to stay, is because we have a special rule about Ways and Durations, which I mentioned earlier in this thread (with a linkt to a post by Donald).

AJD says that the first option is true (maybe with different words). Well, then we don't need the special rule.

The result for these three Ways is the same in any case.

The reason why I say the first option is true, is that Donald has said this, and that otherwise Enchantress could override the Way and vice versa (and we know that they can't). The Ways/Enchantress make us follow other instructions instead of the played card's instructions. If we apply a Way, we're not following the card's instructions anymore, so if we then also apply Enchantress, Enchantress does nothing. Donald has confirmed that Chameleon works the same way. It's the same vice versa, or if we played with two Ways and tried to apply both.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2022, 04:34:29 am by Jeebus »
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Oyvind

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2022, 05:37:38 am »
0

When it comes to Way of the Chameleon, youíre obviously right. Sorry, my bad. I havenít seen such a ruling for Way of the Mouse, though. Maybe I just missed it. If Iíve read the rules correctly, the only thing that matters, when it comes to the Way of the Mouse, as far as I can tell, is if the set-aside card is a Duration, not if the card you play as a Mouse is a Duration. The set-aside card isnít in play, so the ruling will only affect the played card. Are you saying that if I play a Merchant Ship using the Way of the Mouse, which has a Moat set-aside, the Merchant Ship stays in play? Maybe it is so, but I really donít see the logic behind that ruling. Can someone please link to where this is stated? I really want to understand this.

The Way of the Squirrel is quite different, though, IMHO. I donít think it should matter whether you play a Menagerie or a Lighthouse using the Way of the Squirrel. If it does, why? Or are we going to apply the Duration rule to any action card played as a Squirrel?

No, it's only if the set-aside card is a Duration that the played card stays.
But it's still the same principle as Way of the Chameleon.

For Chameleon the relevant rule is that Durations (that aren't done) stay in play.
For Mouse the relevant rule is that "leaving it there" cards (like BoM) stay in play as long as the card they played stays in play. (When a BoM plays a Fishing Village from the supply, the BoM stays in play.)

In theory, we could say that playing a card with a Way means that the card is now doing what the Way says. This is like the instrucions on the card changing. In that case it's clear:
Chameleon: The played Duration is setting up a future effect, so it stays.
Mouse: The played card plays a set-aside Duration "leaving it there" (and the Duration is setting up a future effect), so the played card stays.
Squirrel: The played Duration is setting up a future effect (at end of turn), so it stays.

On the other hand, if we say that the card doesn't do anything when we play it since we're following the Way's instructions instead, then neither Chameleon, Mouse or Squirrel would cause the played card to stay: It's not the played card doing the thing that would cause it to stay in play.

I say that the second option is true. The reason why Chameleon, Mouse or Squirrel still cause the Duration to stay, is because we have a special rule about Ways and Durations, which I mentioned earlier in this thread (with a linkt to a post by Donald).

AJD says that the first option is true (maybe with different words). Well, then we don't need the special rule.

The result for these three Ways is the same in any case.

The reason why I say the first option is true, is that Donald has said this, and that otherwise Enchantress could override the Way and vice versa (and we know that they can't). The Ways/Enchantress make us follow other instructions instead of the played card's instructions. If we apply a Way, we're not following the card's instructions anymore, so if we then also apply Enchantress, Enchantress does nothing. Donald has confirmed that Chameleon works the same way. It's the same vice versa, or if we played with two Ways and tried to apply both.

Perfekt, da er vi enige om bŚde kameleonen og musa. :)

So, whatís your take on a card like Bandit played using Way of the Squirrel? Neither the played card nor the Way are Durations, and in my opinion that leads us to discard the Bandit at the end of the turn itís played, before applying the effect of the Squirrel. We just have to remember to draw two cards at the end of the turn. Do you agree? Does playing Outpost as a Squirrel work the same way? If not, why not? Iíd argue it does, because weíre now following the instructions on the card-shaped thing (the Way), not the card itself (the Duration). I believe both Bandit and Outpost should be discarded during the clean-up phase the turn theyíre played, if you used Way of the Squirrel instead of the cardís instructions.
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Davio

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2022, 05:55:39 am »
+1

Only Duration cards or cards emulating other Duration cards (such as Band of Misfits) can be kept between turns, so a card like Bandit, if played with a Way, is always discarded.
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Oyvind

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2022, 06:03:32 am »
0

Only Duration cards or cards emulating other Duration cards (such as Band of Misfits) can be kept between turns, so a card like Bandit, if played with a Way, is always discarded.

Agreed. But not an Outpost played with Way of the Squirrel? I donít understand this. The Squirrel overrides the Outpost, so you keep Outpost in play becauseÖ of its nice color? Itís not a card that has anything left to do, only emulating a card-shaped thing that has, but that card-shaped thing isnít a Duration, so if a Bandit is discarded because it emulates the Way, Iíd say an Outpost is as well. It has replaced itís original effect with that of the Way.
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Jeebus

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2022, 07:49:25 am »
0

Agreed. But not an Outpost played with Way of the Squirrel? I donít understand this. The Squirrel overrides the Outpost, so you keep Outpost in play becauseÖ of its nice color? Itís not a card that has anything left to do, only emulating a card-shaped thing that has, but that card-shaped thing isnít a Duration, so if a Bandit is discarded because it emulates the Way, Iíd say an Outpost is as well. It has replaced itís original effect with that of the Way.

There are two requirements to keep the card in play when you would normaly discard it in Clean-up:
1) It has the type Duration.
2) It set up something that isn't resolved yet.

Squirrel sets up something that isn't resolved yet, since it hasn't happened yet when you discard your cards in Clean-up. This is the same situation as with Outpost v.1 that I mentioned here.

So any Duration card would stay in play with squirrel, just because of its type.

Davio

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2022, 08:56:21 am »
+1

The only issue is that each Way seems to have a specific ruling which may or may not be independent of other ways, so I guess we need a ruling for Squirrel as well.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2022, 10:44:32 am »
0

The only issue is that each Way seems to have a specific ruling which may or may not be independent of other ways, so I guess we need a ruling for Squirrel as well.

I feel like the Ways issue is detracting from the primary question (and maybe that's my fault for using a Way as my example in the question). Whatever is decided for Way of the Squirrel specifically, the question still remains, what is the rule as it pertains to when you discard a Duration card? Do you discard it in cleanup if it has nothing left to do, or do you discard it in cleanup if this is the last turn that it will do something?
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Jeebus

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2022, 10:51:31 am »
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I feel like the Ways issue is detracting from the primary question (and maybe that's my fault for using a Way as my example in the question). Whatever is decided for Way of the Squirrel specifically, the question still remains, what is the rule as it pertains to when you discard a Duration card? Do you discard it in cleanup if it has nothing left to do, or do you discard it in cleanup if this is the last turn that it will do something?

But Donald already answered it unequivocally in this thread.

GendoIkari

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2022, 11:05:37 am »
+1

I feel like the Ways issue is detracting from the primary question (and maybe that's my fault for using a Way as my example in the question). Whatever is decided for Way of the Squirrel specifically, the question still remains, what is the rule as it pertains to when you discard a Duration card? Do you discard it in cleanup if it has nothing left to do, or do you discard it in cleanup if this is the last turn that it will do something?

But Donald already answered it unequivocally in this thread.

But in a post where 10 minutes later he responded with the opposite answer about Squirrel, so I didn't think it was clear. Both of those back-to-back posts seemed for focused on the Ways aspect; though I do now see the sentence where he states that "Duration cards do stay in play if they have something left to do after discarding cards in clean-up."
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scolapasta

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2022, 11:14:50 am »
+1

One thing to consider is not what makes sense for "us" who analyze the game rules as a computer, trying to extract exact precision. Donald has often made decisions on rules clarifications (and other things too, like font size) which consider the casual player.

With that in mind, what would a casual player think - they play Village then Fishing Village on the same turn, both as Way of the Squirrel (we can assume they had a Villager). Would they differentiate discard Village but not Fishing Village, just because one has Duration in it? Seems unlikely.

So in that sense, the simplest ruling is that they do the same, and among the two options, discarding both seems to make more sense (at least to me).

If the goal is to make this ruling consistent with the duration rule, then having the duration rule for Outpost be that it stays out because it sets up the next turn (and not because it draws only 3 cards) would seem consistent. Which would then mean that an Outpost played on an Outpost turn would get cleaned up that turn and not stay out. (alternatively, Outpost could be errata'd to remove Duration as a type)

To me this also generally fits the reasoning behind the Duration rule; namely it's to remind you to do things. Things about future turns makes sense to need reminders, because things can happen between Cleanup and the next time your turn starts (even with Outpost, there could be other turns you take before it). Not so much between cleanup sub phase 1 (discarding) and sub phase 2 (drawing), i.e. you don't really need the reminder for those few extra seconds.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2022, 12:04:35 pm by scolapasta »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2022, 11:23:13 am »
0

With that in mind, what would a casual player think - they play Village then Fishing Village on the same turn, both as Way of the Squirrel (we can assume they had a Villager). Would they differentiate discard Village but not Fishing Village, just because one has Duration in it? Seems unlikely.

I somewhat agree, but in the same way a casual player who plays Voyage and Possession in the same turn could be equally confused about why one stays in play while the other doesn't. Then again, these same players get confused about why you are allowed to reveal Moat when a player plays a Minion and chooses the +.
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Donald X.

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2022, 11:27:52 am »
+3

I am thoroughly confused; did you just respond with back-to-back posts each giving an opposing answer?
Yes! In between, I talked to other people.

Currently my ruling is, Durations using Way of the Squirrel do not stay out.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2022, 11:59:32 am »
+1

I am thoroughly confused; did you just respond with back-to-back posts each giving an opposing answer?
Yes! In between, I talked to other people.

Currently my ruling is, Durations using Way of the Squirrel do not stay out.

I don't know if this is too non-practical for you to answer, but is that because Durations that don't do anything next turn don't stay out, or because something involving Ways specifically with it being Squirrel and not the Duration that's doing something after cleanup?
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Jeebus

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2022, 12:56:12 pm »
0

I feel like the Ways issue is detracting from the primary question (and maybe that's my fault for using a Way as my example in the question). Whatever is decided for Way of the Squirrel specifically, the question still remains, what is the rule as it pertains to when you discard a Duration card? Do you discard it in cleanup if it has nothing left to do, or do you discard it in cleanup if this is the last turn that it will do something?

But Donald already answered it unequivocally in this thread.

But in a post where 10 minutes later he responded with the opposite answer about Squirrel, so I didn't think it was clear. Both of those back-to-back posts seemed for focused on the Ways aspect; though I do now see the sentence where he states that "Duration cards do stay in play if they have something left to do after discarding cards in clean-up."

This is the unequivocal answer about Durations:

"Duration cards do stay in play if they have something left to do after discarding cards in clean-up. The rulebook implies that nothing will happen after discarding in clean-up and I mean normally nothing does. Duration cards also aren't discarded if they're trashed with pre-errata Bonfire, and the Duration rules don't mention that either, if you see what I mean."
(my emphasis)

Normally nothing happens after discarding in clean-up, means that sometimes they do but the rulebook doesn't cover those cases because they are not normal. Outpost making you draw 3 cards is one of those things that happen after discarding (and importantly it's rare that it matters at all; it only did so with Outpost v.1). So Donald is saying here that the sentence "they stay in play until the Clean-up of the last turn that they do something" only covers the normal cases; it also doesn't cover being trashed with Bonfire for instance.

He has not said anything to revert this ruling (which mirrors the one from 2010) after that. What he has said is that Squirrel works differently. There could be several technical explanations for why, for instance he could be changing a ruling about Ways. But what is pretty clear to me, is that he hasn't considered technical explanations at all; he just (understandably) doesn't want Squirrel to work that way.

Oyvind

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #48 on: March 08, 2022, 04:52:37 pm »
0

I am thoroughly confused; did you just respond with back-to-back posts each giving an opposing answer?
Yes! In between, I talked to other people.

Currently my ruling is, Durations using Way of the Squirrel do not stay out.

Thanks a lot! By far the most logical ruling, IMHO.
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joefarebrother

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #49 on: March 08, 2022, 07:47:09 pm »
+1

Is there any way to have a duration do something in the cleanup step but not next turn without using ways?

If not, then the question of whether this ruling is a general tweak to the duration rules or a special case for way of the squirrel is not very relevant until some future card makes that situation possible.
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