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Author Topic: Duration and Way of the Squirrel  (Read 6104 times)

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GendoIkari

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Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« on: March 06, 2022, 11:48:58 pm »
+1

Based on a conversation in an Outpost + Lich thread: If you play any Duration card and use Way of the Squirrel, will the Duration be discarded this turn or next? While you are discarding your in-play cards during your clean-up phase, the Duration is not yet done doing stuff; it still needs give you +2 cards at the end of the turn. But on the other hand, it doesn't do anything next turn, so this turn is the last turn that it will do anything.

The more general question; is the Duration discard rule looking for whether or not the Duration is done doing stuff, or is it looking for whether or not the Duration will do something on a future turn?
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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2022, 02:24:50 am »
0

What Donald said in the Lich/Outpost threat isn't that Outpost stays in play on a Lich turn because it's making you draw five cards in Cleanup (during the turn), but rather because it still has yet to try (and fail) to give you an extra turn (which happens after the end of the turn).
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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2022, 04:42:20 am »
0

Based on a conversation in an Outpost + Lich thread: If you play any Duration card and use Way of the Squirrel, will the Duration be discarded this turn or next? While you are discarding your in-play cards during your clean-up phase, the Duration is not yet done doing stuff; it still needs give you +2 cards at the end of the turn. But on the other hand, it doesn't do anything next turn, so this turn is the last turn that it will do anything.

The more general question; is the Duration discard rule looking for whether or not the Duration is done doing stuff, or is it looking for whether or not the Duration will do something on a future turn?

Quote
If the card you are playing is a Duration card, it only stays in play if at least one of its plays was for its own abilities. If it does stay in play, you will have to remember for your next turn how many times you actually played the Duration card for its abilities.
Source: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Way

So if you play a Duration card as a Way this turn, it is not played for its Duration effect and can be cleaned up as normal.
If you played it as a Duration card this turn and at the start of your next turn, you play it as a Way, it gets cleaned up that turn as well.

I don't think it matters much if it's the Way of the Squirrel or any other way. It just so happens that with Way of the Squirrel you have to remember to give yourself those 2 cards, there is no indicator for it on the table.
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Awaclus

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2022, 06:10:14 am »
+2

Based on a conversation in an Outpost + Lich thread: If you play any Duration card and use Way of the Squirrel, will the Duration be discarded this turn or next? While you are discarding your in-play cards during your clean-up phase, the Duration is not yet done doing stuff; it still needs give you +2 cards at the end of the turn. But on the other hand, it doesn't do anything next turn, so this turn is the last turn that it will do anything.

The more general question; is the Duration discard rule looking for whether or not the Duration is done doing stuff, or is it looking for whether or not the Duration will do something on a future turn?

Quote
If the card you are playing is a Duration card, it only stays in play if at least one of its plays was for its own abilities. If it does stay in play, you will have to remember for your next turn how many times you actually played the Duration card for its abilities.
Source: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Way

So if you play a Duration card as a Way this turn, it is not played for its Duration effect and can be cleaned up as normal.
If you played it as a Duration card this turn and at the start of your next turn, you play it as a Way, it gets cleaned up that turn as well.

I don't think it matters much if it's the Way of the Squirrel or any other way. It just so happens that with Way of the Squirrel you have to remember to give yourself those 2 cards, there is no indicator for it on the table.

Duration cards don't have "Duration effects", they have regular effects that just happen to be on cards with the Duration type, which makes the cards affected by the Duration rules. Possession, for example, is not affected by the Duration rules and gets discarded before it finishes giving the extra turns, not because its effect is relevantly different from Outpost, but because its type line is. If there was a Way with "At the start of your next turn, +2 Cards", Duration cards played as that Way would stay in play during your clean-up this turn because they're Durations and they care about the fact that they haven't finished doing all of their effects yet, whereas non-Duration cards would not.

The question here is: if a Duration card has an unfinished effect set up for later this turn, does it get discarded from play during cleanup? To me, it seems pretty clear that it should get discarded because that's how it works on ShiT and clearly if it was intended for Duration cards to stay in play when played as WotSquirrel, Donald X. would have written that in the Ways FAQ. But, in principle, it is a question worth asking because the current wording of the Duration rule technically returns a contradiction if you ask it what to do with a Duration played as WotSquirrel.
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Davio

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2022, 06:38:18 am »
0

Duration cards don't have a monopoly on stuff which happens later and that you need to remember.
In a game without Duration cards, you could still play Way of the Squirrel (even multiple times per turn) and have to remember to draw those extra cards.

So I don't think a Duration card should stay out just because you played it with a Way which does something later.
Ignoring the 'duration rule' if you choose to play a Duration card as a Way seems like the most straightforward rule to me.
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Jeebus

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2022, 07:20:20 am »
+2

Donald has explained this earlier regarding Outpost v.1. If Outpost v.1 only causes you to draw 3 cards, and doesn't give you an extra turn, it still stays in play, just from the fact that it has stuff left to do in the part of Clean-up when you discard your cards:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/454333/article/4119563#4119563

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/456393/article/5397101#5397101

It seems to me that a Duration played with the Way of the Squirrel should stay in play until Clean-up of the following turn, unless Donald changes the ruling.

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2022, 08:05:03 am »
+1

There is a difference in that you're following a Way instead of the Duration's instructions. But we know that a Duration played with Way of the Chameleon causes the Duration to stay in play (even though we're not following the Duration's instructions). This seems like the same situation.

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2022, 09:02:24 am »
0

There is a difference in that you're following a Way instead of the Duration's instructions. But we know that a Duration played with Way of the Chameleon causes the Duration to stay in play (even though we're not following the Duration's instructions). This seems like the same situation.
Well with Chameleon you could argue that it has to stay in play because it was played for one of its own original abilities. That is what the "Duration+way" rule specifies anyway.
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Jeebus

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2022, 09:18:24 am »
+1

There is a difference in that you're following a Way instead of the Duration's instructions. But we know that a Duration played with Way of the Chameleon causes the Duration to stay in play (even though we're not following the Duration's instructions). This seems like the same situation.
Well with Chameleon you could argue that it has to stay in play because it was played for one of its own original abilities. That is what the "Duration+way" rule specifies anyway.

No, we're not following any of the Duration's instructions. Chameleon works exactly like all other Ways. That's why we can't use Chameleon on an Enchanted card or vice versa. Playing a card using Way of the Mouse playing a Duration also causes the card to stay in play.

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2022, 09:33:12 am »
0

There is a difference in that you're following a Way instead of the Duration's instructions. But we know that a Duration played with Way of the Chameleon causes the Duration to stay in play (even though we're not following the Duration's instructions). This seems like the same situation.
Well with Chameleon you could argue that it has to stay in play because it was played for one of its own original abilities. That is what the "Duration+way" rule specifies anyway.

No, we're not following any of the Duration's instructions. Chameleon works exactly like all other Ways. That's why we can't use Chameleon on an Enchanted card or vice versa. Playing a card using Way of the Mouse playing a Duration also causes the card to stay in play.
So with regards to Way of the Chameleon you argue that the original card's instructions are 'copied' to the Way so we are no longer following the original card's instructions, but instead the Way's instructions which are exactly the same as the original instructions (with cards and coins reversed)?

If that's true the question remains: if the Duration card is played with Chameleon and it has a Duration effect which is still valid even if it was triggered by the Way instead of the card, does that count as at least one of its plays was for its own abilities?

It seems like the answer for Way of the Chameleon is yes even if the cards and coins are reversed. In the rules it even has an example with Merchant Ship. If you play Merchant Ship with Way of the Chameleon you get +2 cards this turn and +2 coins next turn.
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Jeebus

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2022, 09:49:46 am »
+1

So with regards to Way of the Chameleon you argue that the original card's instructions are 'copied' to the Way so we are no longer following the original card's instructions, but instead the Way's instructions which are exactly the same as the original instructions (with cards and coins reversed)?

Yes, but I'm not really arguing it, it's what Donald has said. You can find it in this forum, maybe under the preview thread, else in the rules forum.

If that's true the question remains: if the Duration card is played with Chameleon and it has a Duration effect which is still valid even if it was triggered by the Way instead of the card, does that count as at least one of its plays was for its own abilities?

I see what you mean by "for its own abilities" now. You're referring to the rule about Throning a Duration and using a Way. When that rule says "for its own abilities" it means specifically NOT using the Way, so it's not really relevant here.

It seems like the answer for Way of the Chameleon is yes even if the cards and coins are reversed. In the rules it even has an example with Merchant Ship. If you play Merchant Ship with Way of the Chameleon you get +2 cards this turn and +2 coins next turn.

When you use a Way, you are never resolving the card's instructions.

There is actually a special rule about Ways and Durations, which can be phrased: "When a Way resolves an effect that would cause it to stay in play, the played card stays instead." That's why Duration with Way of the Chameleon stays in play, and it's also why Mouse playing a Duration makes the played card stay in play.

Davio

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2022, 10:02:02 am »
0

Okay I think I understand, but I can't find that last rule anywhere.

The bottom line is: what even is a Duration and what does it all mean?
There are cards with lasting effects or postponed effects which are not Duration cards.
There are Duration cards which no longer do anything and thus are no longer Duration cards?

I'm confused.  ;D
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GendoIkari

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2022, 10:24:59 am »
+1

Okay I think I understand, but I can't find that last rule anywhere.

The bottom line is: what even is a Duration and what does it all mean?
There are cards with lasting effects or postponed effects which are not Duration cards.
There are Duration cards which no longer do anything and thus are no longer Duration cards?

I'm confused.  ;D

Types as a rule are questions of game design principles and not hard-fast rules. Witch isn't an attack because it gives out Curses; it's an attack because Donald chose to put "Attack" on the bottom of the card. He chose to put that on the bottom of the card so that Moat could be used to stop you from having to gain a Curse.

Similarly, a card isn't a Duration because it does something next turn, it's a Duration when Donald chooses to put "Duration" at the bottom. As a general rule, he chooses to do so on cards that do something next turn. But cards don't automatically become Durations just because they do something next turn, and a card with the exact same text as Smithy but with the type Duration is still a Duration card just as much as any other Duration. It's just one that wouldn't ever be affected by the only rule that makes Durations act differently than non-Durations (that you don't discard them during cleanup if they aren't done).
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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2022, 10:29:36 am »
+1

...I don't understand what all of the controversy here is about.

1. A Duration card is an orange card that says Duration in on the bottom. If no Duration cards are involved, a card is discarded from play even if it is going to do something on the next turn (like Possession).
2. If a Duration card does have something to do after the end of this turn, it stays in play. This is true even even if it was played using Way of the Chameleon.
3. If a Duration card is played "leaving it there", never entering the play area, then the card that played the Duration card remains in play, even if it is not itself a Duration card, such as Band of Misfits, Estate, or any non-Duration card acting through Way of the Mouse.

The question at the top of this thread is about situation (2); the question is, does item (2) apply if the card is played according to Way of the Squirrel? For (2) to be relevant, it would have to be the case that drawing your next hand in Cleanup is considered "after the end of this turn" for Duration purposes. Jeebus is right that (in the context of Outpost) Donald did, a long time ago, answer that question in the affirmative. However, more recently (this past weekend) Donald said something that implicates the opposite: he said that the reason Outpost stays in play after a Lich turn is because trying (and failing) to give you an extra turn happens after the end of the current turn; he didn't say anything about the three-card hand being relevant to why or whether Outpost stays in play. The fact that he didn't mention it suggests (but doesn't prove) that it's not relevant, and drawing your next hand is no longer considered "after the end of this turn" for the purposes of Duration evaluation.
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Jeebus

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2022, 11:21:42 am »
+1

...I don't understand what all of the controversy here is about.

1. A Duration card is an orange card that says Duration in on the bottom. If no Duration cards are involved, a card is discarded from play even if it is going to do something on the next turn (like Possession).
2. If a Duration card does have something to do after the end of this turn, it stays in play. This is true even even if it was played using Way of the Chameleon.
3. If a Duration card is played "leaving it there", never entering the play area, then the card that played the Duration card remains in play, even if it is not itself a Duration card, such as Band of Misfits, Estate, or any non-Duration card acting through Way of the Mouse.

The question at the top of this thread is about situation (2); the question is, does item (2) apply if the card is played according to Way of the Squirrel? For (2) to be relevant, it would have to be the case that drawing your next hand in Cleanup is considered "after the end of this turn" for Duration purposes. Jeebus is right that (in the context of Outpost) Donald did, a long time ago, answer that question in the affirmative. However, more recently (this past weekend) Donald said something that implicates the opposite: he said that the reason Outpost stays in play after a Lich turn is because trying (and failing) to give you an extra turn happens after the end of the current turn; he didn't say anything about the three-card hand being relevant to why or whether Outpost stays in play. The fact that he didn't mention it suggests (but doesn't prove) that it's not relevant, and drawing your next hand is no longer considered "after the end of this turn" for the purposes of Duration evaluation.

One thing you're saying is not correct: that Durations stay in play if it has something to do "after this turn". That has never been the definition, and isn't the definition in any rulebook. The rule is: "Duration cards are not discarded in Clean-up if they have something left to do". That's why he made that Outpost ruling in the past, not because drawing your next hand us "after this turn" (it isn't).

Maybe Donald has recently decided to change the Duration rule to only apply to "after this turn". I haven't seen it though.

EDIT: Oh, and about the 3-card hand not being mentioned by Donald this weekend: It wouldn't be, because with current Outpost the two effects (3-card hand and extra turn) are linked, unlike in the previous version, so there's never any reason to talk about the 3-card hand alone causing anything.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2022, 11:26:53 am by Jeebus »
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AJD

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2022, 11:40:09 am »
+1

One thing you're saying is not correct: that Durations stay in play if it has something to do "after this turn". That has never been the definition, and isn't the definition in any rulebook. The rule is: "Duration cards are not discarded in Clean-up if they have something left to do".

Oh gosh, my mistake.

Of course, I note that the rulebook rule "they stay in play until the Clean-up of the last turn that they do something" appears to be in conflict with "Duration cards are not discarded in Clean-up if they have something left to do" in exactly the case we're talking about—i.e., when the current turn is "the last turn that they do something", but they still "have something left to do" on the current turn. And the discussion is about which of the two halves of that rule takes precedence in case they conflict. A very literal reading of them, I think, does imply "not discarded if they have something left to do" takes precedence. (Then there's no actual rules text saying when they do get discarded, I guess, which is why Donald has to make a ruling that it happens at the Cleanup phase of the next turn.

Quote
EDIT: Oh, and about the 3-card hand not being mentioned by Donald this weekend: It wouldn't be, because with current Outpost the two effects (3-card hand and extra turn) are linked, unlike in the previous version, so there's never any reason to talk about the 3-card hand alone causing anything.

I don't think that's so; Lich cancels the extra turn but I don't see why it would prevent the 3-card hand.
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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2022, 11:55:30 am »
+1

Of course, I note that the rulebook rule "they stay in play until the Clean-up of the last turn that they do something" appears to be in conflict with "Duration cards are not discarded in Clean-up if they have something left to do" in exactly the case we're talking about—i.e., when the current turn is "the last turn that they do something", but they still "have something left to do" on the current turn.

True, they are in conflict. But your quote is from the first edition of the Seaside rulebook. All other rulebooks have the one I quoted.

Quote
EDIT: Oh, and about the 3-card hand not being mentioned by Donald this weekend: It wouldn't be, because with current Outpost the two effects (3-card hand and extra turn) are linked, unlike in the previous version, so there's never any reason to talk about the 3-card hand alone causing anything.

I don't think that's so; Lich cancels the extra turn but I don't see why it would prevent the 3-card hand.

As far as I understand how Lich works, it doesn't prevent any extra turns from being set up. This was recently confirmed by Donald in the Outpost + Lich thread. Outpost is not discarded until it's done giving you the extra turn, even when that turn is skipped by Lich. So Outpost stays in play because of the extra turn in any case; the 3-card hand can never make a difference with Outpost v.2.

GendoIkari

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2022, 01:17:45 pm »
+1

Right, the entire thing here isn't about Ways, it's just that Way of the Squirrel is the simplest example I know of to make the question relevant. The question is simply whether the Duration discard rule is that it stays in play if it still has something to do next turn, or that it stays in play if it still has something to do after the discard part of cleanup this turn.
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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2022, 02:18:29 pm »
0

Of course, I note that the rulebook rule "they stay in play until the Clean-up of the last turn that they do something" appears to be in conflict with "Duration cards are not discarded in Clean-up if they have something left to do" in exactly the case we're talking about—i.e., when the current turn is "the last turn that they do something", but they still "have something left to do" on the current turn.

True, they are in conflict. But your quote is from the first edition of the Seaside rulebook. All other rulebooks have the one I quoted.

My quote is from the Adventures rulebook, which has both of those clauses.
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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2022, 02:26:46 pm »
0

Of course, I note that the rulebook rule "they stay in play until the Clean-up of the last turn that they do something" appears to be in conflict with "Duration cards are not discarded in Clean-up if they have something left to do" in exactly the case we're talking about—i.e., when the current turn is "the last turn that they do something", but they still "have something left to do" on the current turn.

True, they are in conflict. But your quote is from the first edition of the Seaside rulebook. All other rulebooks have the one I quoted.

My quote is from the Adventures rulebook, which has both of those clauses.

Yes, I see now that all rulebooks (with Durations) after Seaside have both: "Duration cards are not discarded in Clean-up if they have something left to do; they stay in play until the Clean-up of the last turn that they do something."

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2022, 03:00:04 pm »
+2


Yes, I see now that all rulebooks (with Durations) after Seaside have both: "Duration cards are not discarded in Clean-up if they have something left to do; they stay in play until the Clean-up of the last turn that they do something."

It's interesting that the contradiction is even written into the rules within a single sentence. It reads to me like one half of that sentence is intended as a more loose overview of the rule while the other is actually the literal rule itself; but it's not really possible to tell which half is which.
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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2022, 04:34:25 pm »
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Right, the entire thing here isn't about Ways, it's just that Way of the Squirrel is the simplest example I know of to make the question relevant. The question is simply whether the Duration discard rule is that it stays in play if it still has something to do next turn, or that it stays in play if it still has something to do after the discard part of cleanup this turn.
The question is, is the Way something the card does? Duration cards do stay in play if they have something left to do after discarding cards in clean-up. The rulebook implies that nothing will happen after discarding in clean-up and I mean normally nothing does. Duration cards also aren't discarded if they're trashed with pre-errata Bonfire, and the Duration rules don't mention that either, if you see what I mean.

Reading the rulebook, I think the Way is something the card does, and thus using a Duration card as Way of the Squirrel would cause it to stay in play. I have not consulted other loud voices on the internet about this yet though.
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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2022, 04:44:17 pm »
+1

Currently I am leaning towards, Durations using Way of the Squirrel will not stay out, because absolutely no-one ever except oops someone sometime and hence this thread, will think they possibly stay out in that situation.

This would be factored into rulebooks on Marchember 43 or thereabouts.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2022, 04:58:59 pm »
0

I am thoroughly confused; did you just respond with back-to-back posts each giving an opposing answer?
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Jeebus

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Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2022, 05:01:35 pm »
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The question is, is the Way something the card does? Duration cards do stay in play if they have something left to do after discarding cards in clean-up. The rulebook implies that nothing will happen after discarding in clean-up and I mean normally nothing does. Duration cards also aren't discarded if they're trashed with pre-errata Bonfire, and the Duration rules don't mention that either, if you see what I mean.

Reading the rulebook, I think the Way is something the card does, and thus using a Duration card as Way of the Squirrel would cause it to stay in play. I have not consulted other loud voices on the internet about this yet though.

The Way is not really something the card does, based on the fact that the Way causes you to do something else instead of what the card does but a Way (or Enchantress) can't further cause you to do something else instead of that. That's in the Menageie rulebook. And you ruled that Chameleon works the same way; you're not doing what the card says anymore at all.

But importantly, Chameleon and Mouse still cause the card to stay in play as if it were the card setting up the future effect. It should work the same with Squirrel.

Edit: Nobody will of course ever expect that unless they read this thread. Just saying that according to the known rules, it really seems like that's what would technically happen.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2022, 05:07:52 pm by Jeebus »
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