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[GendoIkari]

Based on a conversation in an Outpost + Lich thread: If you play any Duration card and use Way of the Squirrel, will the Duration be discarded this turn or next? While you are discarding your in-play cards during your clean-up phase, the Duration is not yet done doing stuff; it still needs give you +2 cards at the end of the turn. But on the other hand, it doesn't do anything next turn, so this turn is the last turn that it will do anything.

The more general question; is the Duration discard rule looking for whether or not the Duration is done doing stuff, or is it looking for whether or not the Duration will do something on a future turn?

[AJD]

What Donald said in the Lich/Outpost threat isn't that Outpost stays in play on a Lich turn because it's making you draw five cards in Cleanup (during the turn), but rather because it still has yet to try (and fail) to give you an extra turn (which happens after the end of the turn).

[Davio]

Based on a conversation in an Outpost + Lich thread: If you play any Duration card and use Way of the Squirrel, will the Duration be discarded this turn or next? While you are discarding your in-play cards during your clean-up phase, the Duration is not yet done doing stuff; it still needs give you +2 cards at the end of the turn. But on the other hand, it doesn't do anything next turn, so this turn is the last turn that it will do anything.

The more general question; is the Duration discard rule looking for whether or not the Duration is done doing stuff, or is it looking for whether or not the Duration will do something on a future turn?

If the card you are playing is a Duration card, it only stays in play if at least one of its plays was for its own abilities. If it does stay in play, you will have to remember for your next turn how many times you actually played the Duration card for its abilities.

Source: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Way

So if you play a Duration card as a Way this turn, it is not played for its Duration effect and can be cleaned up as normal.
If you played it as a Duration card this turn and at the start of your next turn, you play it as a Way, it gets cleaned up that turn as well.

I don't think it matters much if it's the Way of the Squirrel or any other way. It just so happens that with Way of the Squirrel you have to remember to give yourself those 2 cards, there is no indicator for it on the table.

[Awaclus]

Based on a conversation in an Outpost + Lich thread: If you play any Duration card and use Way of the Squirrel, will the Duration be discarded this turn or next? While you are discarding your in-play cards during your clean-up phase, the Duration is not yet done doing stuff; it still needs give you +2 cards at the end of the turn. But on the other hand, it doesn't do anything next turn, so this turn is the last turn that it will do anything.

The more general question; is the Duration discard rule looking for whether or not the Duration is done doing stuff, or is it looking for whether or not the Duration will do something on a future turn?

If the card you are playing is a Duration card, it only stays in play if at least one of its plays was for its own abilities. If it does stay in play, you will have to remember for your next turn how many times you actually played the Duration card for its abilities.

Source: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Way

So if you play a Duration card as a Way this turn, it is not played for its Duration effect and can be cleaned up as normal.
If you played it as a Duration card this turn and at the start of your next turn, you play it as a Way, it gets cleaned up that turn as well.

I don't think it matters much if it's the Way of the Squirrel or any other way. It just so happens that with Way of the Squirrel you have to remember to give yourself those 2 cards, there is no indicator for it on the table.

Duration cards don't have "Duration effects", they have regular effects that just happen to be on cards with the Duration type, which makes the cards affected by the Duration rules. Possession, for example, is not affected by the Duration rules and gets discarded before it finishes giving the extra turns, not because its effect is relevantly different from Outpost, but because its type line is. If there was a Way with "At the start of your next turn, +2 Cards", Duration cards played as that Way would stay in play during your clean-up this turn because they're Durations and they care about the fact that they haven't finished doing all of their effects yet, whereas non-Duration cards would not.

The question here is: if a Duration card has an unfinished effect set up for later this turn, does it get discarded from play during cleanup? To me, it seems pretty clear that it should get discarded because that's how it works on ShiT and clearly if it was intended for Duration cards to stay in play when played as WotSquirrel, Donald X. would have written that in the Ways FAQ. But, in principle, it is a question worth asking because the current wording of the Duration rule technically returns a contradiction if you ask it what to do with a Duration played as WotSquirrel.

[Davio]

Duration cards don't have a monopoly on stuff which happens later and that you need to remember.
In a game without Duration cards, you could still play Way of the Squirrel (even multiple times per turn) and have to remember to draw those extra cards.

So I don't think a Duration card should stay out just because you played it with a Way which does something later.
Ignoring the 'duration rule' if you choose to play a Duration card as a Way seems like the most straightforward rule to me.

[Jeebus]

Donald has explained this earlier regarding Outpost v.1. If Outpost v.1 only causes you to draw 3 cards, and doesn't give you an extra turn, it still stays in play, just from the fact that it has stuff left to do in the part of Clean-up when you discard your cards:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/454333/article/4119563#4119563

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/456393/article/5397101#5397101

It seems to me that a Duration played with the Way of the Squirrel should stay in play until Clean-up of the following turn, unless Donald changes the ruling.

[Jeebus]

There is a difference in that you're following a Way instead of the Duration's instructions. But we know that a Duration played with Way of the Chameleon causes the Duration to stay in play (even though we're not following the Duration's instructions). This seems like the same situation.

[Davio]

There is a difference in that you're following a Way instead of the Duration's instructions. But we know that a Duration played with Way of the Chameleon causes the Duration to stay in play (even though we're not following the Duration's instructions). This seems like the same situation.

Well with Chameleon you could argue that it has to stay in play because it was played for one of its own original abilities. That is what the "Duration+way" rule specifies anyway.

[Jeebus]

There is a difference in that you're following a Way instead of the Duration's instructions. But we know that a Duration played with Way of the Chameleon causes the Duration to stay in play (even though we're not following the Duration's instructions). This seems like the same situation.

Well with Chameleon you could argue that it has to stay in play because it was played for one of its own original abilities. That is what the "Duration+way" rule specifies anyway.

No, we're not following any of the Duration's instructions. Chameleon works exactly like all other Ways. That's why we can't use Chameleon on an Enchanted card or vice versa. Playing a card using Way of the Mouse playing a Duration also causes the card to stay in play.

[Davio]

There is a difference in that you're following a Way instead of the Duration's instructions. But we know that a Duration played with Way of the Chameleon causes the Duration to stay in play (even though we're not following the Duration's instructions). This seems like the same situation.

Well with Chameleon you could argue that it has to stay in play because it was played for one of its own original abilities. That is what the "Duration+way" rule specifies anyway.

No, we're not following any of the Duration's instructions. Chameleon works exactly like all other Ways. That's why we can't use Chameleon on an Enchanted card or vice versa. Playing a card using Way of the Mouse playing a Duration also causes the card to stay in play.

So with regards to Way of the Chameleon you argue that the original card's instructions are 'copied' to the Way so we are no longer following the original card's instructions, but instead the Way's instructions which are exactly the same as the original instructions (with cards and coins reversed)?

If that's true the question remains: if the Duration card is played with Chameleon and it has a Duration effect which is still valid even if it was triggered by the Way instead of the card, does that count as at least one of its plays was for its own abilities?

It seems like the answer for Way of the Chameleon is yes even if the cards and coins are reversed. In the rules it even has an example with Merchant Ship. If you play Merchant Ship with Way of the Chameleon you get +2 cards this turn and +2 coins next turn.

[Jeebus]

So with regards to Way of the Chameleon you argue that the original card's instructions are 'copied' to the Way so we are no longer following the original card's instructions, but instead the Way's instructions which are exactly the same as the original instructions (with cards and coins reversed)?

Yes, but I'm not really arguing it, it's what Donald has said. You can find it in this forum, maybe under the preview thread, else in the rules forum.

If that's true the question remains: if the Duration card is played with Chameleon and it has a Duration effect which is still valid even if it was triggered by the Way instead of the card, does that count as at least one of its plays was for its own abilities?

I see what you mean by "for its own abilities" now. You're referring to the rule about Throning a Duration and using a Way. When that rule says "for its own abilities" it means specifically NOT using the Way, so it's not really relevant here.

It seems like the answer for Way of the Chameleon is yes even if the cards and coins are reversed. In the rules it even has an example with Merchant Ship. If you play Merchant Ship with Way of the Chameleon you get +2 cards this turn and +2 coins next turn.

When you use a Way, you are never resolving the card's instructions.

There is actually a special rule about Ways and Durations, which can be phrased: "When a Way resolves an effect that would cause it to stay in play, the played card stays instead." That's why Duration with Way of the Chameleon stays in play, and it's also why Mouse playing a Duration makes the played card stay in play.

[Davio]

Okay I think I understand, but I can't find that last rule anywhere.

The bottom line is: what even is a Duration and what does it all mean?
There are cards with lasting effects or postponed effects which are not Duration cards.
There are Duration cards which no longer do anything and thus are no longer Duration cards?

I'm confused. 

[GendoIkari]

Okay I think I understand, but I can't find that last rule anywhere.

The bottom line is: what even is a Duration and what does it all mean?
There are cards with lasting effects or postponed effects which are not Duration cards.
There are Duration cards which no longer do anything and thus are no longer Duration cards?

I'm confused. 

Types as a rule are questions of game design principles and not hard-fast rules. Witch isn't an attack because it gives out Curses; it's an attack because Donald chose to put "Attack" on the bottom of the card. He chose to put that on the bottom of the card so that Moat could be used to stop you from having to gain a Curse.

Similarly, a card isn't a Duration because it does something next turn, it's a Duration when Donald chooses to put "Duration" at the bottom. As a general rule, he chooses to do so on cards that do something next turn. But cards don't automatically become Durations just because they do something next turn, and a card with the exact same text as Smithy but with the type Duration is still a Duration card just as much as any other Duration. It's just one that wouldn't ever be affected by the only rule that makes Durations act differently than non-Durations (that you don't discard them during cleanup if they aren't done).

[AJD]

...I don't understand what all of the controversy here is about.

1. A Duration card is an orange card that says Duration in on the bottom. If no Duration cards are involved, a card is discarded from play even if it is going to do something on the next turn (like Possession).
2. If a Duration card does have something to do after the end of this turn, it stays in play. This is true even even if it was played using Way of the Chameleon.
3. If a Duration card is played "leaving it there", never entering the play area, then the card that played the Duration card remains in play, even if it is not itself a Duration card, such as Band of Misfits, Estate, or any non-Duration card acting through Way of the Mouse.

The question at the top of this thread is about situation (2); the question is, does item (2) apply if the card is played according to Way of the Squirrel? For (2) to be relevant, it would have to be the case that drawing your next hand in Cleanup is considered "after the end of this turn" for Duration purposes. Jeebus is right that (in the context of Outpost) Donald did, a long time ago, answer that question in the affirmative. However, more recently (this past weekend) Donald said something that implicates the opposite: he said that the reason Outpost stays in play after a Lich turn is because trying (and failing) to give you an extra turn happens after the end of the current turn; he didn't say anything about the three-card hand being relevant to why or whether Outpost stays in play. The fact that he didn't mention it suggests (but doesn't prove) that it's not relevant, and drawing your next hand is no longer considered "after the end of this turn" for the purposes of Duration evaluation.

[Jeebus]

...I don't understand what all of the controversy here is about.

1. A Duration card is an orange card that says Duration in on the bottom. If no Duration cards are involved, a card is discarded from play even if it is going to do something on the next turn (like Possession).
2. If a Duration card does have something to do after the end of this turn, it stays in play. This is true even even if it was played using Way of the Chameleon.
3. If a Duration card is played "leaving it there", never entering the play area, then the card that played the Duration card remains in play, even if it is not itself a Duration card, such as Band of Misfits, Estate, or any non-Duration card acting through Way of the Mouse.

The question at the top of this thread is about situation (2); the question is, does item (2) apply if the card is played according to Way of the Squirrel? For (2) to be relevant, it would have to be the case that drawing your next hand in Cleanup is considered "after the end of this turn" for Duration purposes. Jeebus is right that (in the context of Outpost) Donald did, a long time ago, answer that question in the affirmative. However, more recently (this past weekend) Donald said something that implicates the opposite: he said that the reason Outpost stays in play after a Lich turn is because trying (and failing) to give you an extra turn happens after the end of the current turn; he didn't say anything about the three-card hand being relevant to why or whether Outpost stays in play. The fact that he didn't mention it suggests (but doesn't prove) that it's not relevant, and drawing your next hand is no longer considered "after the end of this turn" for the purposes of Duration evaluation.

One thing you're saying is not correct: that Durations stay in play if it has something to do "after this turn". That has never been the definition, and isn't the definition in any rulebook. The rule is: "Duration cards are not discarded in Clean-up if they have something left to do". That's why he made that Outpost ruling in the past, not because drawing your next hand us "after this turn" (it isn't).

Maybe Donald has recently decided to change the Duration rule to only apply to "after this turn". I haven't seen it though.

EDIT: Oh, and about the 3-card hand not being mentioned by Donald this weekend: It wouldn't be, because with current Outpost the two effects (3-card hand and extra turn) are linked, unlike in the previous version, so there's never any reason to talk about the 3-card hand alone causing anything.

[AJD]

One thing you're saying is not correct: that Durations stay in play if it has something to do "after this turn". That has never been the definition, and isn't the definition in any rulebook. The rule is: "Duration cards are not discarded in Clean-up if they have something left to do".

Oh gosh, my mistake.

Of course, I note that the rulebook rule "they stay in play until the Clean-up of the last turn that they do something" appears to be in conflict with "Duration cards are not discarded in Clean-up if they have something left to do" in exactly the case we're talking about—i.e., when the current turn is "the last turn that they do something", but they still "have something left to do" on the current turn. And the discussion is about which of the two halves of that rule takes precedence in case they conflict. A very literal reading of them, I think, does imply "not discarded if they have something left to do" takes precedence. (Then there's no actual rules text saying when they do get discarded, I guess, which is why Donald has to make a ruling that it happens at the Cleanup phase of the next turn.

EDIT: Oh, and about the 3-card hand not being mentioned by Donald this weekend: It wouldn't be, because with current Outpost the two effects (3-card hand and extra turn) are linked, unlike in the previous version, so there's never any reason to talk about the 3-card hand alone causing anything.

I don't think that's so; Lich cancels the extra turn but I don't see why it would prevent the 3-card hand.

[Jeebus]

Of course, I note that the rulebook rule "they stay in play until the Clean-up of the last turn that they do something" appears to be in conflict with "Duration cards are not discarded in Clean-up if they have something left to do" in exactly the case we're talking about—i.e., when the current turn is "the last turn that they do something", but they still "have something left to do" on the current turn.

True, they are in conflict. But your quote is from the first edition of the Seaside rulebook. All other rulebooks have the one I quoted.

EDIT: Oh, and about the 3-card hand not being mentioned by Donald this weekend: It wouldn't be, because with current Outpost the two effects (3-card hand and extra turn) are linked, unlike in the previous version, so there's never any reason to talk about the 3-card hand alone causing anything.

I don't think that's so; Lich cancels the extra turn but I don't see why it would prevent the 3-card hand.

As far as I understand how Lich works, it doesn't prevent any extra turns from being set up. This was recently confirmed by Donald in the Outpost + Lich thread. Outpost is not discarded until it's done giving you the extra turn, even when that turn is skipped by Lich. So Outpost stays in play because of the extra turn in any case; the 3-card hand can never make a difference with Outpost v.2.

[GendoIkari]

Right, the entire thing here isn't about Ways, it's just that Way of the Squirrel is the simplest example I know of to make the question relevant. The question is simply whether the Duration discard rule is that it stays in play if it still has something to do next turn, or that it stays in play if it still has something to do after the discard part of cleanup this turn.

[AJD]

Of course, I note that the rulebook rule "they stay in play until the Clean-up of the last turn that they do something" appears to be in conflict with "Duration cards are not discarded in Clean-up if they have something left to do" in exactly the case we're talking about—i.e., when the current turn is "the last turn that they do something", but they still "have something left to do" on the current turn.

True, they are in conflict. But your quote is from the first edition of the Seaside rulebook. All other rulebooks have the one I quoted.

My quote is from the Adventures rulebook, which has both of those clauses.

[Jeebus]

Of course, I note that the rulebook rule "they stay in play until the Clean-up of the last turn that they do something" appears to be in conflict with "Duration cards are not discarded in Clean-up if they have something left to do" in exactly the case we're talking about—i.e., when the current turn is "the last turn that they do something", but they still "have something left to do" on the current turn.

True, they are in conflict. But your quote is from the first edition of the Seaside rulebook. All other rulebooks have the one I quoted.

My quote is from the Adventures rulebook, which has both of those clauses.

Yes, I see now that all rulebooks (with Durations) after Seaside have both: "Duration cards are not discarded in Clean-up if they have something left to do; they stay in play until the Clean-up of the last turn that they do something."

[GendoIkari]

Yes, I see now that all rulebooks (with Durations) after Seaside have both: "Duration cards are not discarded in Clean-up if they have something left to do; they stay in play until the Clean-up of the last turn that they do something."

It's interesting that the contradiction is even written into the rules within a single sentence. It reads to me like one half of that sentence is intended as a more loose overview of the rule while the other is actually the literal rule itself; but it's not really possible to tell which half is which.

[Donald X.]

Right, the entire thing here isn't about Ways, it's just that Way of the Squirrel is the simplest example I know of to make the question relevant. The question is simply whether the Duration discard rule is that it stays in play if it still has something to do next turn, or that it stays in play if it still has something to do after the discard part of cleanup this turn.

The question is, is the Way something the card does? Duration cards do stay in play if they have something left to do after discarding cards in clean-up. The rulebook implies that nothing will happen after discarding in clean-up and I mean normally nothing does. Duration cards also aren't discarded if they're trashed with pre-errata Bonfire, and the Duration rules don't mention that either, if you see what I mean.

Reading the rulebook, I think the Way is something the card does, and thus using a Duration card as Way of the Squirrel would cause it to stay in play. I have not consulted other loud voices on the internet about this yet though.

[Donald X.]

Currently I am leaning towards, Durations using Way of the Squirrel will not stay out, because absolutely no-one ever except oops someone sometime and hence this thread, will think they possibly stay out in that situation.

This would be factored into rulebooks on Marchember 43 or thereabouts.

[GendoIkari]

I am thoroughly confused; did you just respond with back-to-back posts each giving an opposing answer?

[Jeebus]

The question is, is the Way something the card does? Duration cards do stay in play if they have something left to do after discarding cards in clean-up. The rulebook implies that nothing will happen after discarding in clean-up and I mean normally nothing does. Duration cards also aren't discarded if they're trashed with pre-errata Bonfire, and the Duration rules don't mention that either, if you see what I mean.

Reading the rulebook, I think the Way is something the card does, and thus using a Duration card as Way of the Squirrel would cause it to stay in play. I have not consulted other loud voices on the internet about this yet though.

The Way is not really something the card does, based on the fact that the Way causes you to do something else instead of what the card does but a Way (or Enchantress) can't further cause you to do something else instead of that. That's in the Menageie rulebook. And you ruled that Chameleon works the same way; you're not doing what the card says anymore at all.

But importantly, Chameleon and Mouse still cause the card to stay in play as if it were the card setting up the future effect. It should work the same with Squirrel.

Edit: Nobody will of course ever expect that unless they read this thread. Just saying that according to the known rules, it really seems like that's what would technically happen.

[AJD]

The Way is not really something the card does, based on the fact that the Way causes you to do something else instead of what the card does but a Way (or Enchantress) can't further cause you to do something else instead of that. That's in the Menageie rulebook. And you ruled that Chameleon works the same way; you're not doing what the card says anymore at all.

Jeebus, your interpretation was wrong in that thread from 2020, and it's still wrong, but apparently nobody up to and including Donald X. telling you in so many words that according to the rules the Way is something that the card does can convince you that the Way is something that the card does.

[AJD]

Currently I am leaning towards, Durations using Way of the Squirrel will not stay out, because absolutely no-one ever except oops someone sometime and hence this thread, will think they possibly stay out in that situation.

I think this is clearly the best ruling! Does this imply that, in general, a card having an effect at the last part of cleanup isn't enough to trigger the Duration stay-in-play rule? (I.e., that "Outpost makes you draw a smaller hand" isn't why Outpost stays in play, but rather "Outpost triggers an additional turn" is why Outpost stays in play?)

[GendoIkari]

Currently I am leaning towards, Durations using Way of the Squirrel will not stay out, because absolutely no-one ever except oops someone sometime and hence this thread, will think they possibly stay out in that situation.

I think this is clearly the best ruling! Does this imply that, in general, a card having an effect at the last part of cleanup isn't enough to trigger the Duration stay-in-play rule? (I.e., that "Outpost makes you draw a smaller hand" isn't why Outpost stays in play, but rather "Outpost triggers an additional turn" is why Outpost stays in play?)

I'm inclined to agree, but far from "clearly" for me. I guess the general thing is, most people are going to think of duration as meaning "next turn", rather than "later this same turn after cleanup".

[Oyvind]

I believe this would sort itself out if the official rules stated:

- Each Way gives Action cards an additional option: you can play the Action for what it normally does, or play it to do what the Way says to do.
and
- If the card you are playing is a Duration card, it only stays in play if at least one of its plays was for what it normally does. If it does stay in play, you will have to remember for your next turn how many times you actually played the Duration for what it normally does.

or

- Each Way gives Action cards an additional option: you can play the Action for its own abilities, or play it to do what the Way says to do.
and
- If the card you are playing is a Duration card, it only stays in play if at least one of its plays was for its own abilities. If it does stay in play, you will have to remember for your next turn how many times you actually played the Duration card for its own abilities.

I don’t know if I understand this correctly, but to me, it seems like these two rule sets say exactly the same thing, just in different ways. If I’m correct, keeping to one of these wordings (or the other; it doesn’t really matter which one of them you use) will make it clear you won’t keep the duration card in play for multiple rounds, if you only played it for what the Way says to do, no matter the timing of the effect of the Way, whether it’s played as a Chameleon, Mouse, Squirrel or any other Way.

[Jeebus]

The Way is not really something the card does, based on the fact that the Way causes you to do something else instead of what the card does but a Way (or Enchantress) can't further cause you to do something else instead of that. That's in the Menageie rulebook. And you ruled that Chameleon works the same way; you're not doing what the card says anymore at all.

Jeebus, your interpretation was wrong in that thread from 2020, and it's still wrong, but apparently nobody up to and including Donald X. telling you in so many words that according to the rules the Way is something that the card does can convince you that the Way is something that the card does.

  You guys stopped arguing in that thread after Donald said he agreed with me.
At some point you had to resort to stating that you didn't care (your words) what Donald had said about how Ways work, in order to support your position.
You can continue arguing your point though, but lets do it in the other thread. (Maybe you can respond to what you had to "think about" after you realized there was a hole in your argument that I had been pointing out almost from the start.)

For the topic in this thread though, it doesn't matter. All that matters is how Chameleon and Mouse work work with Durations. They cause the Duration to stay, so Squirrel does to, according to the rules.

[Jeebus]

Currently I am leaning towards, Durations using Way of the Squirrel will not stay out, because absolutely no-one ever except oops someone sometime and hence this thread, will think they possibly stay out in that situation.

I think this is clearly the best ruling! Does this imply that, in general, a card having an effect at the last part of cleanup isn't enough to trigger the Duration stay-in-play rule? (I.e., that "Outpost makes you draw a smaller hand" isn't why Outpost stays in play, but rather "Outpost triggers an additional turn" is why Outpost stays in play?)

I assume not, since Donald also stated in this thread that Durations work the way he said they worked in 2010: they stay in play as long as they have something left to do.

To me it just seems like a special ruling for Way of the Squirrel, since otherwise it would quite often behave differently than what most anybody would think.

[Jeebus]

I believe this would sort itself out if the official rules stated:

- Each Way gives Action cards an additional option: you can play the Action for what it normally does, or play it to do what the Way says to do.
and
- If the card you are playing is a Duration card, it only stays in play if at least one of its plays was for what it normally does. If it does stay in play, you will have to remember for your next turn how many times you actually played the Duration for what it normally does.

or

- Each Way gives Action cards an additional option: you can play the Action for its own abilities, or play it to do what the Way says to do.
and
- If the card you are playing is a Duration card, it only stays in play if at least one of its plays was for its own abilities. If it does stay in play, you will have to remember for your next turn how many times you actually played the Duration card for its own abilities.

I don’t know if I understand this correctly, but to me, it seems like these two rule sets say exactly the same thing, just in different ways. If I’m correct, keeping to one of these wordings (or the other; it doesn’t really matter which one of them you use) will make it clear you won’t keep the duration card in play for multiple rounds, if you only played it for what the Way says to do, no matter the timing of the effect of the Way, whether it’s played as a Chameleon, Mouse, Squirrel or any other Way.

But the rule is that you do keep the Duration in play with Chameleon and Mouse. I doubt Donald is going to change that.

[Oyvind]

I believe this would sort itself out if the official rules stated:

- Each Way gives Action cards an additional option: you can play the Action for what it normally does, or play it to do what the Way says to do.
and
- If the card you are playing is a Duration card, it only stays in play if at least one of its plays was for what it normally does. If it does stay in play, you will have to remember for your next turn how many times you actually played the Duration for what it normally does.

or

- Each Way gives Action cards an additional option: you can play the Action for its own abilities, or play it to do what the Way says to do.
and
- If the card you are playing is a Duration card, it only stays in play if at least one of its plays was for its own abilities. If it does stay in play, you will have to remember for your next turn how many times you actually played the Duration card for its own abilities.

I don’t know if I understand this correctly, but to me, it seems like these two rule sets say exactly the same thing, just in different ways. If I’m correct, keeping to one of these wordings (or the other; it doesn’t really matter which one of them you use) will make it clear you won’t keep the duration card in play for multiple rounds, if you only played it for what the Way says to do, no matter the timing of the effect of the Way, whether it’s played as a Chameleon, Mouse, Squirrel or any other Way.

But the rule is that you do keep the Duration in play with Chameleon and Mouse. I doubt Donald is going to change that.

When it comes to Way of the Chameleon, you’re obviously right. Sorry, my bad. I haven’t seen such a ruling for Way of the Mouse, though. Maybe I just missed it. If I’ve read the rules correctly, the only thing that matters, when it comes to the Way of the Mouse, as far as I can tell, is if the set-aside card is a Duration, not if the card you play as a Mouse is a Duration. The set-aside card isn’t in play, so the ruling will only affect the played card. Are you saying that if I play a Merchant Ship using the Way of the Mouse, which has a Moat set-aside, the Merchant Ship stays in play? Maybe it is so, but I really don’t see the logic behind that ruling. Can someone please link to where this is stated? I really want to understand this.

The Way of the Squirrel is quite different, though, IMHO. I don’t think it should matter whether you play a Menagerie or a Lighthouse using the Way of the Squirrel. If it does, why? Or are we going to apply the Duration rule to any action card played as a Squirrel?

[AJD]

Jeebus, I apologize; it was uncalled-for and unkind of me to restart that argument, and it would be unproductive for me to continue it now. I still disagree with you, but that's okay, and I didn't have to be a jerk and drag out two-year-old arguments that will just make everyone irritated including us. I'm sorry.

[Jeebus]

When it comes to Way of the Chameleon, you’re obviously right. Sorry, my bad. I haven’t seen such a ruling for Way of the Mouse, though. Maybe I just missed it. If I’ve read the rules correctly, the only thing that matters, when it comes to the Way of the Mouse, as far as I can tell, is if the set-aside card is a Duration, not if the card you play as a Mouse is a Duration. The set-aside card isn’t in play, so the ruling will only affect the played card. Are you saying that if I play a Merchant Ship using the Way of the Mouse, which has a Moat set-aside, the Merchant Ship stays in play? Maybe it is so, but I really don’t see the logic behind that ruling. Can someone please link to where this is stated? I really want to understand this.

The Way of the Squirrel is quite different, though, IMHO. I don’t think it should matter whether you play a Menagerie or a Lighthouse using the Way of the Squirrel. If it does, why? Or are we going to apply the Duration rule to any action card played as a Squirrel?

No, it's only if the set-aside card is a Duration that the played card stays.
But it's still the same principle as Way of the Chameleon.

For Chameleon the relevant rule is that Durations (that aren't done) stay in play.
For Mouse the relevant rule is that "leaving it there" cards (like BoM) stay in play as long as the card they played stays in play. (When a BoM plays a Fishing Village from the supply, the BoM stays in play.)

In theory, we could say that playing a card with a Way means that the card is now doing what the Way says. This is like the instrucions on the card changing. In that case it's clear:
Chameleon: The played Duration is setting up a future effect, so it stays.
Mouse: The played card plays a set-aside Duration "leaving it there" (and the Duration is setting up a future effect), so the played card stays.
Squirrel: The played Duration is setting up a future effect (at end of turn), so it stays.

On the other hand, if we say that the card doesn't do anything when we play it since we're following the Way's instructions instead, then neither Chameleon, Mouse or Squirrel would cause the played card to stay: It's not the played card doing the thing that would cause it to stay in play.

I say that the second option is true. The reason why Chameleon, Mouse or Squirrel still cause the Duration to stay, is because we have a special rule about Ways and Durations, which I mentioned earlier in this thread (with a linkt to a post by Donald).

AJD says that the first option is true (maybe with different words). Well, then we don't need the special rule.

The result for these three Ways is the same in any case.

The reason why I say the first option is true, is that Donald has said this, and that otherwise Enchantress could override the Way and vice versa (and we know that they can't). The Ways/Enchantress make us follow other instructions instead of the played card's instructions. If we apply a Way, we're not following the card's instructions anymore, so if we then also apply Enchantress, Enchantress does nothing. Donald has confirmed that Chameleon works the same way. It's the same vice versa, or if we played with two Ways and tried to apply both.

[Oyvind]

When it comes to Way of the Chameleon, you’re obviously right. Sorry, my bad. I haven’t seen such a ruling for Way of the Mouse, though. Maybe I just missed it. If I’ve read the rules correctly, the only thing that matters, when it comes to the Way of the Mouse, as far as I can tell, is if the set-aside card is a Duration, not if the card you play as a Mouse is a Duration. The set-aside card isn’t in play, so the ruling will only affect the played card. Are you saying that if I play a Merchant Ship using the Way of the Mouse, which has a Moat set-aside, the Merchant Ship stays in play? Maybe it is so, but I really don’t see the logic behind that ruling. Can someone please link to where this is stated? I really want to understand this.

The Way of the Squirrel is quite different, though, IMHO. I don’t think it should matter whether you play a Menagerie or a Lighthouse using the Way of the Squirrel. If it does, why? Or are we going to apply the Duration rule to any action card played as a Squirrel?

No, it's only if the set-aside card is a Duration that the played card stays.
But it's still the same principle as Way of the Chameleon.

For Chameleon the relevant rule is that Durations (that aren't done) stay in play.
For Mouse the relevant rule is that "leaving it there" cards (like BoM) stay in play as long as the card they played stays in play. (When a BoM plays a Fishing Village from the supply, the BoM stays in play.)

In theory, we could say that playing a card with a Way means that the card is now doing what the Way says. This is like the instrucions on the card changing. In that case it's clear:
Chameleon: The played Duration is setting up a future effect, so it stays.
Mouse: The played card plays a set-aside Duration "leaving it there" (and the Duration is setting up a future effect), so the played card stays.
Squirrel: The played Duration is setting up a future effect (at end of turn), so it stays.

On the other hand, if we say that the card doesn't do anything when we play it since we're following the Way's instructions instead, then neither Chameleon, Mouse or Squirrel would cause the played card to stay: It's not the played card doing the thing that would cause it to stay in play.

I say that the second option is true. The reason why Chameleon, Mouse or Squirrel still cause the Duration to stay, is because we have a special rule about Ways and Durations, which I mentioned earlier in this thread (with a linkt to a post by Donald).

AJD says that the first option is true (maybe with different words). Well, then we don't need the special rule.

The result for these three Ways is the same in any case.

The reason why I say the first option is true, is that Donald has said this, and that otherwise Enchantress could override the Way and vice versa (and we know that they can't). The Ways/Enchantress make us follow other instructions instead of the played card's instructions. If we apply a Way, we're not following the card's instructions anymore, so if we then also apply Enchantress, Enchantress does nothing. Donald has confirmed that Chameleon works the same way. It's the same vice versa, or if we played with two Ways and tried to apply both.

Perfekt, da er vi enige om både kameleonen og musa.

So, what’s your take on a card like Bandit played using Way of the Squirrel? Neither the played card nor the Way are Durations, and in my opinion that leads us to discard the Bandit at the end of the turn it’s played, before applying the effect of the Squirrel. We just have to remember to draw two cards at the end of the turn. Do you agree? Does playing Outpost as a Squirrel work the same way? If not, why not? I’d argue it does, because we’re now following the instructions on the card-shaped thing (the Way), not the card itself (the Duration). I believe both Bandit and Outpost should be discarded during the clean-up phase the turn they’re played, if you used Way of the Squirrel instead of the card’s instructions.

[Davio]

Only Duration cards or cards emulating other Duration cards (such as Band of Misfits) can be kept between turns, so a card like Bandit, if played with a Way, is always discarded.

[Oyvind]

Only Duration cards or cards emulating other Duration cards (such as Band of Misfits) can be kept between turns, so a card like Bandit, if played with a Way, is always discarded.

Agreed. But not an Outpost played with Way of the Squirrel? I don’t understand this. The Squirrel overrides the Outpost, so you keep Outpost in play because… of its nice color? It’s not a card that has anything left to do, only emulating a card-shaped thing that has, but that card-shaped thing isn’t a Duration, so if a Bandit is discarded because it emulates the Way, I’d say an Outpost is as well. It has replaced it’s original effect with that of the Way.

[Jeebus]

Agreed. But not an Outpost played with Way of the Squirrel? I don’t understand this. The Squirrel overrides the Outpost, so you keep Outpost in play because… of its nice color? It’s not a card that has anything left to do, only emulating a card-shaped thing that has, but that card-shaped thing isn’t a Duration, so if a Bandit is discarded because it emulates the Way, I’d say an Outpost is as well. It has replaced it’s original effect with that of the Way.

There are two requirements to keep the card in play when you would normaly discard it in Clean-up:
1) It has the type Duration.
2) It set up something that isn't resolved yet.

Squirrel sets up something that isn't resolved yet, since it hasn't happened yet when you discard your cards in Clean-up. This is the same situation as with Outpost v.1 that I mentioned here.

So any Duration card would stay in play with squirrel, just because of its type.

[Davio]

The only issue is that each Way seems to have a specific ruling which may or may not be independent of other ways, so I guess we need a ruling for Squirrel as well.

[GendoIkari]

The only issue is that each Way seems to have a specific ruling which may or may not be independent of other ways, so I guess we need a ruling for Squirrel as well.

I feel like the Ways issue is detracting from the primary question (and maybe that's my fault for using a Way as my example in the question). Whatever is decided for Way of the Squirrel specifically, the question still remains, what is the rule as it pertains to when you discard a Duration card? Do you discard it in cleanup if it has nothing left to do, or do you discard it in cleanup if this is the last turn that it will do something?

[Jeebus]

I feel like the Ways issue is detracting from the primary question (and maybe that's my fault for using a Way as my example in the question). Whatever is decided for Way of the Squirrel specifically, the question still remains, what is the rule as it pertains to when you discard a Duration card? Do you discard it in cleanup if it has nothing left to do, or do you discard it in cleanup if this is the last turn that it will do something?

But Donald already answered it unequivocally in this thread.

[GendoIkari]

I feel like the Ways issue is detracting from the primary question (and maybe that's my fault for using a Way as my example in the question). Whatever is decided for Way of the Squirrel specifically, the question still remains, what is the rule as it pertains to when you discard a Duration card? Do you discard it in cleanup if it has nothing left to do, or do you discard it in cleanup if this is the last turn that it will do something?

But Donald already answered it unequivocally in this thread.

But in a post where 10 minutes later he responded with the opposite answer about Squirrel, so I didn't think it was clear. Both of those back-to-back posts seemed for focused on the Ways aspect; though I do now see the sentence where he states that "Duration cards do stay in play if they have something left to do after discarding cards in clean-up."

[scolapasta]

One thing to consider is not what makes sense for "us" who analyze the game rules as a computer, trying to extract exact precision. Donald has often made decisions on rules clarifications (and other things too, like font size) which consider the casual player.

With that in mind, what would a casual player think - they play Village then Fishing Village on the same turn, both as Way of the Squirrel (we can assume they had a Villager). Would they differentiate discard Village but not Fishing Village, just because one has Duration in it? Seems unlikely.

So in that sense, the simplest ruling is that they do the same, and among the two options, discarding both seems to make more sense (at least to me).

If the goal is to make this ruling consistent with the duration rule, then having the duration rule for Outpost be that it stays out because it sets up the next turn (and not because it draws only 3 cards) would seem consistent. Which would then mean that an Outpost played on an Outpost turn would get cleaned up that turn and not stay out. (alternatively, Outpost could be errata'd to remove Duration as a type)

To me this also generally fits the reasoning behind the Duration rule; namely it's to remind you to do things. Things about future turns makes sense to need reminders, because things can happen between Cleanup and the next time your turn starts (even with Outpost, there could be other turns you take before it). Not so much between cleanup sub phase 1 (discarding) and sub phase 2 (drawing), i.e. you don't really need the reminder for those few extra seconds.

[GendoIkari]

With that in mind, what would a casual player think - they play Village then Fishing Village on the same turn, both as Way of the Squirrel (we can assume they had a Villager). Would they differentiate discard Village but not Fishing Village, just because one has Duration in it? Seems unlikely.

I somewhat agree, but in the same way a casual player who plays Voyage and Possession in the same turn could be equally confused about why one stays in play while the other doesn't. Then again, these same players get confused about why you are allowed to reveal Moat when a player plays a Minion and chooses the +.

[Donald X.]

I am thoroughly confused; did you just respond with back-to-back posts each giving an opposing answer?

Yes! In between, I talked to other people.

Currently my ruling is, Durations using Way of the Squirrel do not stay out.

[GendoIkari]

I am thoroughly confused; did you just respond with back-to-back posts each giving an opposing answer?

Yes! In between, I talked to other people.

Currently my ruling is, Durations using Way of the Squirrel do not stay out.

I don't know if this is too non-practical for you to answer, but is that because Durations that don't do anything next turn don't stay out, or because something involving Ways specifically with it being Squirrel and not the Duration that's doing something after cleanup?

[Jeebus]

I feel like the Ways issue is detracting from the primary question (and maybe that's my fault for using a Way as my example in the question). Whatever is decided for Way of the Squirrel specifically, the question still remains, what is the rule as it pertains to when you discard a Duration card? Do you discard it in cleanup if it has nothing left to do, or do you discard it in cleanup if this is the last turn that it will do something?

But Donald already answered it unequivocally in this thread.

But in a post where 10 minutes later he responded with the opposite answer about Squirrel, so I didn't think it was clear. Both of those back-to-back posts seemed for focused on the Ways aspect; though I do now see the sentence where he states that "Duration cards do stay in play if they have something left to do after discarding cards in clean-up."

This is the unequivocal answer about Durations:

"Duration cards do stay in play if they have something left to do after discarding cards in clean-up. The rulebook implies that nothing will happen after discarding in clean-up and I mean normally nothing does. Duration cards also aren't discarded if they're trashed with pre-errata Bonfire, and the Duration rules don't mention that either, if you see what I mean."
(my emphasis)

Normally nothing happens after discarding in clean-up, means that sometimes they do but the rulebook doesn't cover those cases because they are not normal. Outpost making you draw 3 cards is one of those things that happen after discarding (and importantly it's rare that it matters at all; it only did so with Outpost v.1). So Donald is saying here that the sentence "they stay in play until the Clean-up of the last turn that they do something" only covers the normal cases; it also doesn't cover being trashed with Bonfire for instance.

He has not said anything to revert this ruling (which mirrors the one from 2010) after that. What he has said is that Squirrel works differently. There could be several technical explanations for why, for instance he could be changing a ruling about Ways. But what is pretty clear to me, is that he hasn't considered technical explanations at all; he just (understandably) doesn't want Squirrel to work that way.

[Oyvind]

I am thoroughly confused; did you just respond with back-to-back posts each giving an opposing answer?

Yes! In between, I talked to other people.

Currently my ruling is, Durations using Way of the Squirrel do not stay out.

Thanks a lot! By far the most logical ruling, IMHO.

[joefarebrother]

Is there any way to have a duration do something in the cleanup step but not next turn without using ways?

If not, then the question of whether this ruling is a general tweak to the duration rules or a special case for way of the squirrel is not very relevant until some future card makes that situation possible.

[GendoIkari]

Is there any way to have a duration do something in the cleanup step but not next turn without using ways?

If not, then the question of whether this ruling is a general tweak to the duration rules or a special case for way of the squirrel is not very relevant until some future card makes that situation possible.

Right, that's what I meant by saying that the question might be too non-practical to expect Donald to answer it. In Outpost v1, Outpost could make you draw 3 cards in cleanup without making you take an extra, turn, though even then it was ruled that simply trying and failing to make you take another turn counted as a thing that Outpost still needed to do, and that thing happened after the current turn was over.

[Jeebus]

I'm not aware of any other way than with Outpost v.1.
In that sense changing the Duration rule to "after this turn" would probably be the least intrusive rules change if you wanted to make the Squirrel ruling consistent with the rules.

[GendoIkari]

I'm not aware of any other way than with Outpost v.1.
In that sense changing the Duration rule to "after this turn" would probably be the least intrusive rules change if you wanted to make the Squirrel ruling consistent with the rules.

Yes I think this makes the most sense, and I think it's in line with what most people think of when they think of how durations work. They think of durations as being cards that do something next turn; and thus stay in play until next turn. It requires more specific thinking about the technical wording of the rules to realize that a duration could do nothing next turn but still have something left to do during cleanup.