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Author Topic: Outpost + Lich  (Read 4336 times)

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mxdata

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Outpost + Lich
« on: March 05, 2022, 04:42:07 am »
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If I play Outpost and Lich on the same turn, how exactly does it work?

Outpost says "You only draw 3 cards for your next hand", and it seems to me that that would still apply. But the extra turn that I would have played with that 3-card hand is skipped by Lich. So, does that mean, then, that I would have a starting hand of 3 cards on my next regular turn?

And when would Outpost get discarded?  Would it be at the end of that regular turn?
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Re: Outpost + Lich
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2022, 09:16:19 am »
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Well, clearly you would only have three cards on the next turn you take, as drawing a new hand happens in the cleanup of the turn in which you play the outpost. As for when it gets discarded, the end of the next turn you do take feels right to me, but I'm not sure
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AJD

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Re: Outpost + Lich
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2022, 10:20:03 am »
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Hmm... the rule for Duration cards is, discard them in Cleanup on the last turn they do anything.... If you play Lich, then Outpost or Voyage isn't doing anything on any future turn. Unlike other Durations, who effect is delayed until the next turn you do have, Outpost or Voyage's next-turn effect (of causing you to have that turn) is actually canceled. So I think, discard Outpost on the turn you play it if its extra turn is canceled by Lich.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2022, 02:34:30 pm by AJD »
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Re: Outpost + Lich
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2022, 11:01:49 am »
+2

I think you'd discard Outpost in Clean-up of the next turn that's actually taken, which would usually be the player to your left's next turn.
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Davio

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Re: Outpost + Lich
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2022, 02:13:36 pm »
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Outpost:
Quote
If this is the first time you played an Outpost this turn, and the previous turn wasn't yours, then take an extra turn after this one, and you only draw 3 cards for your next hand.

The question is: do we stop reading at the part where it says "take an extra turn after this one" and just ignore the and clause which comes after it or not?

It looks like the condition for Outpost to do anything is just "did you take a turn before this?"
If you played a Lich and Outpost, the previous turn wasn't yours, so we keep reading.
Then we get to the interesting part:
then take an extra turn after this one, and you only draw 3 cards for your next hand.

The second and part has no other condition, it doesn't say then take an extra turn after this one, if you do, only draw 3 cards for your next hand

So if we follow the rule that we must do as much as we can, we want to take an extra turn, but we can't.
Then we draw 3 cards for our next hand when we get to our Clean-up phase, we can do that.

So we've arrived at the clean-up phase and it gets interesting.

Durations are supposed to be cleaned up when they no longer do anything on the next turn. In this case you could argue that after you've drawn your 3 cards there is nothing left on the card that we need to know for our next turn and it can be immediately discarded. This is contrary to an actual Outpost turn where you need to be reminded that it's an Outpost turn in case you play another Outpost.
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Ingix

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Re: Outpost + Lich
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2022, 02:34:06 pm »
+2

My current understanding is that Outpost (and Voyage) have both one thing left to do that keeps them in play: To create their respective extra turns. Normally, once they are created, the extra turns are taken and thus Outpost/Voyage get discarded during that turn's cleanup.

Now with Lich also played, it means the extra turn is created, but then skipped. So LastFootnote is AFAIK correct: The Outpost/Voyage have nothing left to do at this point, so will be discarded during Cleanup of the next turn that actually happens. That will often be your opponent's next normal turn, but could be another extra turn of you, if you had multiple efffects creating extra turns (relatively easy with Voyage).
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AJD

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Re: Outpost + Lich
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2022, 02:36:30 pm »
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I think you'd discard Outpost in Clean-up of the next turn that's actually taken, which would usually be the player to your left's next turn.

Wait, why? You discard Durations during cleanup of the last turn on which they do anything. Liched Outpost doesn't do anything on the player to your left's next turn.
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Ingix

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Re: Outpost + Lich
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2022, 02:44:33 pm »
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That "last turn they do anything" seems to be a simplification, because extra turn generating effects have to work outside of a turn. I gave my "current understanding" in the post above yours.
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BraydonM

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Re: Outpost + Lich
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2022, 05:39:10 pm »
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My current understanding is that Outpost (and Voyage) have both one thing left to do that keeps them in play: To create their respective extra turns. Normally, once they are created, the extra turns are taken and thus Outpost/Voyage get discarded during that turn's cleanup.

Now with Lich also played, it means the extra turn is created, but then skipped. So LastFootnote is AFAIK correct: The Outpost/Voyage have nothing left to do at this point, so will be discarded during Cleanup of the next turn that actually happens. That will often be your opponent's next normal turn, but could be another extra turn of you, if you had multiple efffects creating extra turns (relatively easy with Voyage).
This is incorrect. Taking an extra turn does not require a duration. Seize the Day and Possession both work without a duration, and lich is not a duration. The duration effect on outpost is ďand you only draw 3 cards for your next hand.Ē This wording indicates you will only draw three cards after playing lich and outpost. It never uses words such as ďdraw 3 cards in your next turnĒ skipping a turn doesnít change what your next hand is.

(Voyage is a duration for the only play 3 cards not the extra turn.)
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AJD

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Re: Outpost + Lich
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2022, 05:55:48 pm »
+1

That "last turn they do anything" seems to be a simplification, because extra turn generating effects have to work outside of a turn. I gave my "current understanding" in the post above yours.

"The last turn that they do something" is the literal text of the rules, though. I don't follow your argumentówhat stops them from being discarded at the end of the turn you play them?
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AJD

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Re: Outpost + Lich
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2022, 06:05:42 pm »
+1

My current understanding is that Outpost (and Voyage) have both one thing left to do that keeps them in play: To create their respective extra turns. Normally, once they are created, the extra turns are taken and thus Outpost/Voyage get discarded during that turn's cleanup.

Now with Lich also played, it means the extra turn is created, but then skipped. So LastFootnote is AFAIK correct: The Outpost/Voyage have nothing left to do at this point, so will be discarded during Cleanup of the next turn that actually happens. That will often be your opponent's next normal turn, but could be another extra turn of you, if you had multiple efffects creating extra turns (relatively easy with Voyage).
This is incorrect. Taking an extra turn does not require a duration. Seize the Day and Possession both work without a duration, and lich is not a duration. The duration effect on outpost is ďand you only draw 3 cards for your next hand.Ē This wording indicates you will only draw three cards after playing lich and outpost. It never uses words such as ďdraw 3 cards in your next turnĒ skipping a turn doesnít change what your next hand is.

(Voyage is a duration for the only play 3 cards not the extra turn.)

But "only draw 3 cards for your next hand" is something that happens this turn, not next turn. If that were the only effect of Outpost, it would never stay in play beyond the turn you played it. Affecting the cleanup phase of this turn isn't a "duration effect". The only thing Outpost does that affects a future turn is creating the extra turn, and that's why it stays in play till the end of the extra turn.

"Taking an extra turn does not require a Duration"ótrue, but not relevant. "+1 card on your next turn" also doesn't require a Duration, but that doesn't stop, say, Caravan from being a Duration card and following Duration rules.

If a non-Duration card gives someone an extra turn, it doesn't stay in play because the rules are than non-Duration cards don't stay in play, even if they do something on a future turn. If a Duration card gives someone an extra turn, it does.
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Amuzet

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Re: Outpost + Lich
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2022, 07:45:13 pm »
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I think the simplest way to resolve this is that since Outpost does something after your Cleanup, during your Draw which was the original ABCD's of Dominion turn. That is why Outpost stays in play because it does something after the next Cleanup step. Thats how I think it would work.
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AJD

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Re: Outpost + Lich
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2022, 08:43:17 pm »
+2

The draw is part of the Cleanup phase and always has been, though, at least based on the rules as published. (I don't know if there was a secret-history prerelease version in which Draw was a separate phase.)
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scolapasta

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Re: Outpost + Lich
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2022, 09:12:16 pm »
+1

The draw is part of the Cleanup phase and always has been, though, at least based on the rules as published. (I don't know if there was a secret-history prerelease version in which Draw was a separate phase.)

Sure, but you can think of Cleanup as having two sub phases (similar to a Buy phase's "play treasures" and "buy cards" sub phases):
ē Cleanup - discard cards from hand and in play
ē Draw - draw your hand for next turn

In other words, once you start drawing (while Outpost is still doing something), you can't then go back and discard from in play.
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AJD

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Re: Outpost + Lich
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2022, 02:15:34 am »
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The draw is part of the Cleanup phase and always has been, though, at least based on the rules as published. (I don't know if there was a secret-history prerelease version in which Draw was a separate phase.)

Sure, but you can think of Cleanup as having two sub phases (similar to a Buy phase's "play treasures" and "buy cards" sub phases):
ē Cleanup - discard cards from hand and in play
ē Draw - draw your hand for next turn

In other words, once you start drawing (while Outpost is still doing something), you can't then go back and discard from in play.

Okay but... so? It's true that once you start drawing you can't then discard it from play, because discarding comes before drawing in the Cleanup phase. But that just means you're supposed to have discarded it before you started drawing, not that it stays in play just because it does something at the end of the Cleanup phase. The rule is that Durations stay in play if they're scheduled to do something on a future turn, not just if they're scheduled to do something later in the same turn.
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Ingix

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Re: Outpost + Lich
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2022, 03:35:18 am »
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That "last turn they do anything" seems to be a simplification, because extra turn generating effects have to work outside of a turn. I gave my "current understanding" in the post above yours.

"The last turn that they do something" is the literal text of the rules, though. I don't follow your argumentówhat stops them from being discarded at the end of the turn you play them?

What stops Outpost from being discarded the turn you play it (if it "activates", that means if all the conditions to create an extra turn are true)? By the rule you quoted, it would always be discarded the turn you play it, which makes it quite a strange duration card.

On another point of view, thinking about "when will this be discarded" from a strict rules standpoint is the wrong idea, IMO. The general rule is that everything is discarded during Cleanup, but there are exceptions. For Durations, the exception can be formulated as "If it has things left to do after this turn." Since only very few cards do things between turns, this is equivalent to "It will be discarded on the last turn it did something." for almost all durations cards. But for Voyage and Outpost, it is not equivalent.

Agan, this is my understanding of how this works, which explains all the rulings that I'm aware of.
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Davio

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Re: Outpost + Lich
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2022, 04:03:19 am »
+2

I still think Outpost should be able to be discarded in the same Clean-up phase in which it lets you only draw 3 cards.

Making it draw 3 cards is not the reason it's a Duration and needs to stay in play sometimes. The only reason it's a Duration is to remind you on the actual Outpost turn that it's an Outpost turn and it has a minor strategic bonus that you can't draw the dead Outpost card on your Outpost turn.

Outpost does not need to be a Duration card, it could easily be made into a non-Duration card and it would work exactly the same.

But there is a second edition of Seaside coming, maybe Outpost will be changed in it.
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Amuzet

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Re: Outpost + Lich
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2022, 04:57:29 am »
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I agree to the placation that we wait for the Second edition wording!
Scheduling this argument to be picked back up when and if the wording is not updated.
See you then!
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AJD

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Re: Outpost + Lich
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2022, 10:00:12 am »
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That "last turn they do anything" seems to be a simplification, because extra turn generating effects have to work outside of a turn. I gave my "current understanding" in the post above yours.

"The last turn that they do something" is the literal text of the rules, though. I don't follow your argumentówhat stops them from being discarded at the end of the turn you play them?

What stops Outpost from being discarded the turn you play it (if it "activates", that means if all the conditions to create an extra turn are true)? By the rule you quoted, it would always be discarded the turn you play it, which makes it quite a strange duration card.

I think the answer is, because it is doing something on the next turn, namely, causing you to have a turn.
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Ingix

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Re: Outpost + Lich
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2022, 01:04:41 pm »
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I'd say that causing you to have turn can't be done "during that turn", that is a bit cyclical to me. Also with Lich being able to skip the Outpost turn, it would then never be discarded, because on the last turn it did something is something that never happened.
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AJD

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Re: Outpost + Lich
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2022, 01:09:11 pm »
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If Lich makes you skip the Outpost turn, then Outpost is discarded on the turn you play it because it's not going to have an effect on a future turn (i.e., creating one)!
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Donald X.

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Re: Outpost + Lich
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2022, 01:14:17 pm »
+6

Ingix has it right; you discard Outpost in the clean-up of the first turn that actually happens with no pending Outpost turn. We don't do the math of "this Lich skip will cancel the Outpost turn" until after Clean-up.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Outpost + Lich
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2022, 01:47:42 pm »
+1

That "last turn they do anything" seems to be a simplification, because extra turn generating effects have to work outside of a turn. I gave my "current understanding" in the post above yours.

"The last turn that they do something" is the literal text of the rules, though. I don't follow your argumentówhat stops them from being discarded at the end of the turn you play them?

What stops Outpost from being discarded the turn you play it (if it "activates", that means if all the conditions to create an extra turn are true)? By the rule you quoted, it would always be discarded the turn you play it, which makes it quite a strange duration card.

On another point of view, thinking about "when will this be discarded" from a strict rules standpoint is the wrong idea, IMO. The general rule is that everything is discarded during Cleanup, but there are exceptions. For Durations, the exception can be formulated as "If it has things left to do after this turn." Since only very few cards do things between turns, this is equivalent to "It will be discarded on the last turn it did something." for almost all durations cards. But for Voyage and Outpost, it is not equivalent.

Agan, this is my understanding of how this works, which explains all the rulings that I'm aware of.

I have always thought Outpost didnít match the technicalities of duration rules; or at least not the original duration rules. However, during the time that you would be discarding cards in cleanup, you havenít drawn yet so Outpost isnít done. Itís like it should be discarded this turn because this is the last turn it does something; but by time itís ready to be discarded, itís too late for this turn.

In other words, even if Outpost didnít give an extra turn at all; and just had you draw 3 instead of 5 while still being a Duration, it would get discarded next turn.

I believe this is confirmed by playing first edition Outpost on an Outpost turn; you still draw 3 cards even though you wonít get another turn, and Outpost still stays out.
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mxdata

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Re: Outpost + Lich
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2022, 02:16:39 pm »
+2

That "last turn they do anything" seems to be a simplification, because extra turn generating effects have to work outside of a turn. I gave my "current understanding" in the post above yours.

"The last turn that they do something" is the literal text of the rules, though. I don't follow your argumentówhat stops them from being discarded at the end of the turn you play them?

What stops Outpost from being discarded the turn you play it (if it "activates", that means if all the conditions to create an extra turn are true)? By the rule you quoted, it would always be discarded the turn you play it, which makes it quite a strange duration card.

On another point of view, thinking about "when will this be discarded" from a strict rules standpoint is the wrong idea, IMO. The general rule is that everything is discarded during Cleanup, but there are exceptions. For Durations, the exception can be formulated as "If it has things left to do after this turn." Since only very few cards do things between turns, this is equivalent to "It will be discarded on the last turn it did something." for almost all durations cards. But for Voyage and Outpost, it is not equivalent.

Agan, this is my understanding of how this works, which explains all the rulings that I'm aware of.

I have always thought Outpost didnít match the technicalities of duration rules; or at least not the original duration rules. However, during the time that you would be discarding cards in cleanup, you havenít drawn yet so Outpost isnít done. Itís like it should be discarded this turn because this is the last turn it does something; but by time itís ready to be discarded, itís too late for this turn.

In other words, even if Outpost didnít give an extra turn at all; and just had you draw 3 instead of 5 while still being a Duration, it would get discarded next turn.

I believe this is confirmed by playing first edition Outpost on an Outpost turn; you still draw 3 cards even though you wonít get another turn, and Outpost still stays out.

That makes sense. On the other hand, that argument could also be made about Way of the Squirrel. Both a Squirreled card and Outpost change how you draw for your next hand, but a Squirreled card doesn't become a Duration

Although, in that case, I suppose you could argue that a Way can't change a card's types, so that's why a Squirreled card remains a non-Duration card, but a hypothetical card that was just Squirrel on its own would be a Duration

EDIT: Maybe not, actually. The Capitalism Project can add Treasure to a card's type, and Inheritance is an Event that adds the Action type to Estates, so there doesn't seem to be a basis for saying types can't be added by landscapes. E.g., a "Way of the Royal Galley" ("Play this card now and at the start of your next turn") would surely be a valid (even if rather unbalanced) Way
« Last Edit: March 06, 2022, 02:27:20 pm by mxdata »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Outpost + Lich
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2022, 05:35:57 pm »
+1

That "last turn they do anything" seems to be a simplification, because extra turn generating effects have to work outside of a turn. I gave my "current understanding" in the post above yours.

"The last turn that they do something" is the literal text of the rules, though. I don't follow your argumentówhat stops them from being discarded at the end of the turn you play them?

What stops Outpost from being discarded the turn you play it (if it "activates", that means if all the conditions to create an extra turn are true)? By the rule you quoted, it would always be discarded the turn you play it, which makes it quite a strange duration card.

On another point of view, thinking about "when will this be discarded" from a strict rules standpoint is the wrong idea, IMO. The general rule is that everything is discarded during Cleanup, but there are exceptions. For Durations, the exception can be formulated as "If it has things left to do after this turn." Since only very few cards do things between turns, this is equivalent to "It will be discarded on the last turn it did something." for almost all durations cards. But for Voyage and Outpost, it is not equivalent.

Agan, this is my understanding of how this works, which explains all the rulings that I'm aware of.

I have always thought Outpost didnít match the technicalities of duration rules; or at least not the original duration rules. However, during the time that you would be discarding cards in cleanup, you havenít drawn yet so Outpost isnít done. Itís like it should be discarded this turn because this is the last turn it does something; but by time itís ready to be discarded, itís too late for this turn.

In other words, even if Outpost didnít give an extra turn at all; and just had you draw 3 instead of 5 while still being a Duration, it would get discarded next turn.

I believe this is confirmed by playing first edition Outpost on an Outpost turn; you still draw 3 cards even though you wonít get another turn, and Outpost still stays out.

That makes sense. On the other hand, that argument could also be made about Way of the Squirrel. Both a Squirreled card and Outpost change how you draw for your next hand, but a Squirreled card doesn't become a Duration

Although, in that case, I suppose you could argue that a Way can't change a card's types, so that's why a Squirreled card remains a non-Duration card, but a hypothetical card that was just Squirrel on its own would be a Duration

EDIT: Maybe not, actually. The Capitalism Project can add Treasure to a card's type, and Inheritance is an Event that adds the Action type to Estates, so there doesn't seem to be a basis for saying types can't be added by landscapes. E.g., a "Way of the Royal Galley" ("Play this card now and at the start of your next turn") would surely be a valid (even if rather unbalanced) Way

Right; Ways never change a cardís type; and types are based purely on the text at the bottom of the card; never based on what effect the card has. Note how Possession is not a Duration, and also not an attack.

But if you play a Duration card and use Way if the Squirrel; does that duration stay in play? I donít actually know for sure; but itís true that at the time you are discarding cards from play during cleanup; that Squirreled duration is not yet done doing things.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2022, 05:37:18 pm by GendoIkari »
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