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Author Topic: Allies Preview 4: Recursion  (Read 18536 times)

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Jeebus

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2022, 09:29:03 am »
0

If you play 2 Liches in the same turn, do you skip your next two turns, or just your next one?

I believe the ruling is that skipped turns are cumulative, so playing two Liches will skip your next two turns.

Where is that ruling from?

jbrecken

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2022, 09:32:09 am »
0

If Lich is skipping your next turn, shouldn't it be a duration card?
It does not stay out, so no.

If it doesn't stay out, then how do you remember to skip your turn?  Is there a "skip my turn" token you take instead?
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ahyangyi

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2022, 09:36:33 am »
+1

I guess you need stuff to help you remember fine details such as "getting +$1 at your next turn". But skipping a turn is so big that you don't really need anything to help.

If you somehow played King's Court - King's Court - Lich - Lich - Lich, then you don't really need to remember to skip 9 turns, basically you grab all the points you can and if you still can't guarantee a win you probably already lost.
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faust

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2022, 09:39:05 am »
+1

If Lich is skipping your next turn, shouldn't it be a duration card?
It does not stay out, so no.

Note that Outpost would not have to stay out, but as you cannot play a Outpost during your Outpost turn, Outpost be a Duration is actually a mild buff (no risk to draw one dead card from your deck).
Same with Lich (but the other way around). If it stayed out it would be significantly weaker.
I think the main issue why Lich isn't a Duration is the weird rules implications that would have. If Lich is a Duration, that would imply that it "does something" on the turn you are skipping. But then are you really skipping that turn? And why would Duration-Lich activate on the skipped turn, but not other Durations?
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King Leon

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2022, 09:44:29 am »
+3

Or does it literally mean "does nothing", so not even under-the-line stuff?
And does a Silver which “does nothing” trigger Sauna and Merchant?
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faust

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2022, 09:49:12 am »
0

I now had 3 Wizard games. Each of them was 4/3 vs 5/2. Each of them was decided by getting access to Student. This seems like a major flaw to me. And it's a shame, because it could have easily been avoided: Just change Student so the player to your left gets to decide whether to rotate the pile.
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Davio

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2022, 09:53:20 am »
+4

Or does it literally mean "does nothing", so not even under-the-line stuff?
And does a Silver which “does nothing” trigger Sauna and Merchant?
Maybe the easiest way to reason about Highwayman is that for any first card which has the type "Treasure" when it is played, the card text is essentially blank, but it still has its name and all its types.

So a Silver which does nothing could still be played, but it gives no $0 and Merchant gets its +$1.
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rickert

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2022, 10:02:10 am »
0

So does Lich cause you to skip the rest of your current turn or does it wipe out the next one if you play just one?
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jbrecken

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2022, 10:02:33 am »
0

If Lich is skipping your next turn, shouldn't it be a duration card?
It does not stay out, so no.

Note that Outpost would not have to stay out, but as you cannot play a Outpost during your Outpost turn, Outpost be a Duration is actually a mild buff (no risk to draw one dead card from your deck).
Same with Lich (but the other way around). If it stayed out it would be significantly weaker.
I think the main issue why Lich isn't a Duration is the weird rules implications that would have. If Lich is a Duration, that would imply that it "does something" on the turn you are skipping. But then are you really skipping that turn? And why would Duration-Lich activate on the skipped turn, but not other Durations?

I will likely end up leaving Lich out as a reminder to skip, pretending it says the equivalent of "Set this card aside.  On your next turn, discard it and do nothing else."  So there is possibly some edge case where my discard pile won't contain exactly what it should until my next turn, but it probably won't break the game.
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ben_king

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2022, 10:05:14 am »
+1

If you play 2 Liches in the same turn, do you skip your next two turns, or just your next one?

I believe the ruling is that skipped turns are cumulative, so playing two Liches will skip your next two turns.

Where is that ruling from?

Donald X. has stated it on the discord (https://discord.com/channels/212660788786102272/890927866538238012/948860629932978226)
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Davio

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2022, 10:07:19 am »
+2

So does Lich cause you to skip the rest of your current turn or does it wipe out the next one if you play just one?
It skips a turn, which, if we're being pedantic does not necessarily have to mean the next turn, maybe you can choose to skip the turn after the next turn?  :P

But a turn starts with resolving effects from any previous turn (Durations and/or other start of turn effects) and ends with clean-up where you draw your next hand.
So if you play this, you finish your current turn, discard and draw a new hand and just wait until your opponent finishes 2 turns and then it's your turn again.

Think of it like a reverse Tactician, with Tactician you basically skip your current turn to get a double turn next turn.
With Lich it's the opposite, you get a double turn now, that's what the +6 cards and +2 actions are for. Say you start your turn with 5 cards and 1 action as usual and play this, now you have 10 cards and 2 actions, hey that's double what you started with!
« Last Edit: March 03, 2022, 10:11:36 am by Davio »
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AJD

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2022, 10:16:45 am »
+11

If you play 2 Liches in the same turn, do you skip your next two turns, or just your next one?

I believe the ruling is that skipped turns are cumulative, so playing two Liches will skip your next two turns.

King's Court - King's Court - Lich - Lich - Lich

Combo for when you have to go make a phone call but don't want to interrupt the game
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GendoIkari

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2022, 10:26:25 am »
+10

I see Allies continues the hidden subtheme of "create a bunch of new rules questions that make the original Band of Misfits look like Smithy".

*Edit* Not a complaint; I think as long as we get clear and well-defined rules that explain these things; there's nothing wrong with having to learn new rules to interpret card text correctly.
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Cuzz

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2022, 10:30:40 am »
0

Just played a game with Wizards. They're fun, but it seems quite problematic that Student is a trasher that you can lock other players out of getting once you have it. If there is no other trashing, it's basically a mandatory opener, even on 5/2.

Not locked out; they can always just buy their way through the pile ;-)
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mxdata

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2022, 10:50:09 am »
+4

Or does it literally mean "does nothing", so not even under-the-line stuff?
And does a Silver which “does nothing” trigger Sauna and Merchant?

I don't see why it wouldn't. When you play a Silver after Sauna or Merchant, it's not the Silver itself that's trashing or giving you an extra $1, it's the Sauna/Merchant doing that. Those cards are looking for a Silver being played, and while the Silver itself does nothing, it's still a card that's called "Silver"
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chipperMDW

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2022, 11:05:28 am »
+2

If Lich is skipping your next turn, shouldn't it be a duration card?
It does not stay out, so no.
This way, you get to skip a turn every turn, not just every other turn.
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vidicate

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2022, 11:07:56 am »
0

Or does it literally mean "does nothing", so not even under-the-line stuff?
And does a Silver which “does nothing” trigger Sauna and Merchant?

I don't see why it wouldn't. When you play a Silver after Sauna or Merchant, it's not the Silver itself that's trashing or giving you an extra $1, it's the Sauna/Merchant doing that. Those cards are looking for a Silver being played, and while the Silver itself does nothing, it's still a card that's called "Silver"

Can confirm that the online previews work this way.
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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2022, 11:09:52 am »
0

Those Wizards are breaking my brain. They feel way overpowered, but I'm sure that impression will turn out to be wrong, or it would never have made it past play-testing.
I don't see it.
Student seems to be an average power level trasher, Conjurer is far from the best Workshop variant, Sorcerer is not that impressive in multiplayer and Lich is (without cards that grant extra turns) like Tactician. Worse as Tactician shines with virtual money, better as the effect is immediate and as there are endgame shennanigans.

And TfB shenanigans.
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mxdata

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2022, 11:44:43 am »
0

If you play 2 Liches in the same turn, do you skip your next two turns, or just your next one?

I believe the ruling is that skipped turns are cumulative, so playing two Liches will skip your next two turns.

Where is that ruling from?

Donald X. has stated it on the discord (https://discord.com/channels/212660788786102272/890927866538238012/948860629932978226)

Makes sense. Extra turns are cumulative with Possession and Voyage, and Outpost has the specific wording it does specifically in order to prevent it from being cumulative, so it would be inconsistent if skipped turns weren't also cumulative
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theNarwhal

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2022, 11:53:09 am »
0

Sorcerer looks way, and I mean, way better than Sorceress.

What makes you say this?

Sorceress pairs perfectly with Sibyl (the next Augur up the line), which lets you draw 4 cards and then topdeck one of them. Topdeck your card, play Sorceress, and voila!

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mxdata

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2022, 12:14:41 pm »
0

Sorcerer looks way, and I mean, way better than Sorceress.

What makes you say this?

Sorceress pairs perfectly with Sibyl (the next Augur up the line), which lets you draw 4 cards and then topdeck one of them. Topdeck your card, play Sorceress, and voila!

Sorcerer and Sorceress have an odd interaction when they're both in the same game. If my opponent plays their Sorcerer, I reveal my top card, and whether I guessed it correctly or not, I now know what it is. If I happened to have a Sorceress in my hand, then I'll know what to guess to play it (barring things like duration draw or another attack that messes up the top of my deck of course)

Also, Chariot Race has a nice synergy with Sorceress if you play Chariot Race first, but has an anti-synergy with Sorcerer (especially in two player games, in multiplayer only the player to your left gets that advantage)
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jbrecken

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2022, 12:21:46 pm »
+1

If it doesn't stay out, then how do you remember to skip your turn?  Is there a "skip my turn" token you take instead?
How do you remember how many Coins, Actions and Buys you have in a wacky King's Court Kingdom?

I usually just repeat my running totals aloud after each card is played, while narrating my turn.  I guess I'd have to constantly mutter to myself "1 skipped turn" while my opponents were playing.
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mxdata

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2022, 12:23:50 pm »
+1

The artwork used by the online implentation for Highwayman's effect is really cool
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Davio

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2022, 12:25:44 pm »
+3

Just played a game with Wizards. They're fun, but it seems quite problematic that Student is a trasher that you can lock other players out of getting once you have it. If there is no other trashing, it's basically a mandatory opener, even on 5/2.

Not locked out; they can always just buy their way through the pile ;-)
Maybe it's me, but I don't think Student is all that overpowered. It trashes just a single card which is not that impressive, BM probably even beats BM+Student.
You have to trash Treasures to get its benefit, but in the early game Coppers are important to reach those critical $5 cards (oftentimes the critical cards are $5+), and Estates are not so you'd rather trash Estates if you can.
And besides trashing, it provides no other value, especially if the Ally isn't that useful.

The topdecking seems powerful, but when you start the game, you only have 10 cards, so say you bought any other trashing card, you'll play it every other turn anyway and increasingly often after you've started thinning.

So you are sacrificing a lot, and I do mean a lot of early game tempo if your strategy depends on Student, so your engine needs to be good enough to catch up.

I don't know if the "Silver test" is still a thing, but there will be many times where you wished it was a Silver. :)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2022, 12:27:04 pm by Davio »
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faust

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2022, 12:30:23 pm »
+2

Just played a game with Wizards. They're fun, but it seems quite problematic that Student is a trasher that you can lock other players out of getting once you have it. If there is no other trashing, it's basically a mandatory opener, even on 5/2.

Not locked out; they can always just buy their way through the pile ;-)
Maybe it's me, but I don't think Student is all that overpowered. It trashes just a single card which is not that impressive, BM probably even beats BM+Student.
You have to trash Treasures to get its benefit, but in the early game Coppers are important to reach those critical $5 cards (oftentimes the critical cards are $5+), and Estates are not so you'd rather trash Estates if you can.
And besides trashing, it provides no other value, especially if the Ally isn't that useful.

The topdecking seems powerful, but when you start the game, you only have 10 cards, so say you bought any other trashing card, you'll play it every other turn anyway and increasingly often after you've started thinning.

So you are sacrificing a lot, and I do mean a lot of early game tempo if your strategy depends on Student, so your engine needs to be good enough to catch up.

I don't know if the "Silver test" is still a thing, but there will be many times where you wished it was a Silver. :)
I'm not sure if this is old meta, but comparing BM+X to BM isn't really a thing anymore; you never play BM+X anyway. Most games have engines. Engines want trashing. If there's no trashing other than Student, you're going to need Student.

The power level is probably comparable to Forager. Sure, there are better trashers, but most games won't have those.
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