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[Donald X.]

The "choose one" theme from Intrigue returns! Okay it's been on the table for every expansion, but now there is a bunch of it at once. Including cards that can cantrip or do another thing, and cards that do something and then give you a choice of a twist on that something. Well let's start with a split pile, the Townsfolk:



Elder ties the pile together, giving you an extra choice when choose-one-ing (or choose-two-ing). It's optional; you can Elder a Count and take an extra good thing but not an extra bad thing. If I made a card like Elder as a regular pile, game after game there'd be no choose-one on the same board. But it's in a split pile so there are always at least two, Town Crier and Blacksmith. And then Miller can help you line up the combo.

And here are two regular kingdom cards:



Town. A thing of beauty is a joy forever. Modify trashes a card, but then what? Was that the whole point, or did you want to Remodel it? The choice is yours.

And two more Allies:



Band of Nomads gives you a choice, though it doesn't work with Elder. It can be exciting with gainers, and when there aren't any, well it can still make +Buys for you. Architects' Guild doesn't fit the day's theme but I am showing it off anyway. It's the Haggler Ally.

Again, cards can be tried out almost immediately at https://dominion.games/.

[mxdata]

Elder sounds like it will be incredibly strong with some cards. It already looks like it would have a great combination with Town Crier and Blacksmith. Elder + Blacksmith would all a net draw to 8! Or non-terminal draw to 7!

[Jeebus]

So Elder is another card that refers to the abilites of other cards. And this one too opens up some rules questions. What is included in "gives you a choice of abilities"?  "Choose one" is just an example, so then I guess it should also include Barge (draw now and next turn), Border Guard (take Lantern and Horn), Hermit (trash one from discard and one from hand), Raze (trash this and a card from hand), Small Castle (trash this and a Castle from hand), Tournament (gain a Prize and a Duchy (or two Prizes?)), Village Green (now and next turn).

In the case of Raze and Small Castle, what would it entail to do both? The rest of Raze's ability refers to the "trashed card", so I guess you would do it twice? But interpreting Small Castle the same way, would it give you two Castles?

Also, Jester. (It even says "your choice".) You would rarely want to give a copy to both yourself and an opponent, but it could be an end-game move.

[mxdata]

So Elder is another card that refers to the abilites of other cards. And this one too opens up some rules questions. What is included in "gives you a choice of abilities"?  "Choose one" is just an example, so then I guess it should also include Barge (draw now and next turn), Border Guard (take Lantern and Horn), Hermit (trash one from discard and one from hand), Raze (trash this and a card from hand), Small Castle (trash this and a Castle from hand), Tournament (gain a Prize and a Duchy (or two Prizes?)), Village Green (now and next turn).

In the case of Raze and Small Castle, what would it entail to do both? The rest of Raze's ability refers to the "trashed card", so I guess you would do it twice? But interpreting Small Castle the same way, would it give you two Castles?

I feel like with Tournament's gaining, it's not a set of optional abilities, it's a single ability, gaining, which is restricted in a certain way (from the Prize pile or the Duchy Pile), and likewise, the trashing with Hermit, Raze, and Small Castle aren't different abilities, they're a definition of where you're allowed to look to for cards to trash. The now or next turn would definitely result in now and next turn I think

I feel like this card's probably going to have a decently-long FAQ

[AJD]

So Elder is another card that refers to the abilites of other cards. And this one too opens up some rules questions. What is included in "gives you a choice of abilities"?  "Choose one" is just an example, so then I guess it should also include Barge (draw now and next turn), Border Guard (take Lantern and Horn), Hermit (trash one from discard and one from hand), Raze (trash this and a card from hand), Small Castle (trash this and a Castle from hand), Tournament (gain a Prize and a Duchy (or two Prizes?)), Village Green (now and next turn).

In the case of Raze and Small Castle, what would it entail to do both? The rest of Raze's ability refers to the "trashed card", so I guess you would do it twice? But interpreting Small Castle the same way, would it give you two Castles?

Well, certainly not Barge or Village Green, since Elder specifically states "this turn". I too would like to know the scope of what counts as a "choice of abilities"—does "e.g., 'choose one'" only encompass when the word "choose" is used, or a broader range of things that could be construed as choices, as Jeebus suggests?—but I assume the card FAQ will tell us.

[vidicate]

I love how appropriately named Miller is.

[Jeebus]

I feel like with Tournament's gaining, it's not a set of optional abilities, it's a single ability, gaining, which is restricted in a certain way (from the Prize pile or the Duchy Pile), and likewise, the trashing with Hermit, Raze, and Small Castle aren't different abilities, they're a definition of where you're allowed to look to for cards to trash. The now or next turn would definitely result in now and next turn I think

I feel like this card's probably going to have a decently-long FAQ

No, Tournament gives a choices between two effects (gain a Prize, gain a Duchy). It's not one gaining effect with restrictions. We know this because you can choose either one, even if the pile is empty, in which case you gain nothing. (But I'm fairly certain "gain a Prize" is one gaining effect with restrictions.) So Tournament is functionally the same as Pawn, for instance. You choose between separate effects. Only the wording is different.

The same is true for Hermit, Raze and Small Castle. You can choose an option that will fail, meaning that these are separate effects that you choose from.

[Jeebus]

Well, certainly not Barge or Village Green, since Elder specifically states "this turn". I too would like to know the scope of what counts as a "choice of abilities"—does "e.g., 'choose one'" only encompass when the word "choose" is used, or a broader range of things that could be construed as choices, as Jeebus suggests?—but I assume the card FAQ will tell us.

Barge gives you "a choice of abilities" this turn. One of them happens to be setting up a future ability, but it's still something you do this turn when you play the card.

[NoMoreFun]

Elder seemed busted at first, but it's mostly worse than "+$2, Throne Room". Still, that's still a strong card, it combos quite nicely with the other Townsfolk. and it's fun to think about combos.

[NoMoreFun]

Well, certainly not Barge or Village Green, since Elder specifically states "this turn". I too would like to know the scope of what counts as a "choice of abilities"—does "e.g., 'choose one'" only encompass when the word "choose" is used, or a broader range of things that could be construed as choices, as Jeebus suggests?—but I assume the card FAQ will tell us.

Barge gives you "a choice of abilities" this turn. One of them happens to be setting up a future ability, but it still something you do this turn when you play the card.

The "this turn" seems to come into effect for Amulet (you still only get one choice next turn).

[pst]

Elder sounds like it will be incredibly strong with some cards.

I think the Elder would like a Trusty Steed.

[Jeebus]

Well, certainly not Barge or Village Green, since Elder specifically states "this turn". I too would like to know the scope of what counts as a "choice of abilities"—does "e.g., 'choose one'" only encompass when the word "choose" is used, or a broader range of things that could be construed as choices, as Jeebus suggests?—but I assume the card FAQ will tell us.

Barge gives you "a choice of abilities" this turn. One of them happens to be setting up a future ability, but it still something you do this turn when you play the card.

The "this turn" seems to come into effect for Amulet (you still only get one choice next turn).

No. Amulet gives you a choice this turn, for effects to do this turn, and you get to choose an extra option with Elder. It also gives you a choice next turn, but that is irrelevant. Setting up that ability for next turn (where you get to choose next turn) is part of what Amulet does this turn, but it does that anyway; you don't choose to do it.

Barge gives you a choice this turn, for effects to do this turn. One of them happens to be setting up a future ability, but it still something you do this turn when you play the card.

[ahyangyi]

Elder seemed busted at first, but it's mostly worse than "+$2, Throne Room". Still, that's still a strong card, it combos quite nicely with the other Townsfolk. and it's a fun to think about combos.

Elder+Broker is arguably stronger than Throne Room+Broker+$2  though.

[familiar]

How Elder will combine with Catacomb??

[Dubdubdubdub]

How Elder will combine with Catacomb??

Good one!

I suppose, if you want to put the cards in your hand and then discard them, go ahead I don't think you still get to put them into your hand after you've discarded them, but the wording could definitely be clearer.

[Jeebus]

How Elder will combine with Catacomb??

I guess it depends on how we interpret Elder's ability:

Are we resolving Catacombs once, and the resolving part of it again (similar to playing it with Throne Room)? If so, you could put the cards in hand, then fail to discard them (because the second Catacombs ability lost track), then draw 3.

Or is Elder just "modifying" how we play Catacombs, like Lantern modifies Border Guard, so that instead of choosing one, we choose two different options? In that case, I guess you would discard them from your hand (so it's pointless).

I assume the latter.

[vidicate]

Well, certainly not Barge or Village Green, since Elder specifically states "this turn". I too would like to know the scope of what counts as a "choice of abilities"—does "e.g., 'choose one'" only encompass when the word "choose" is used, or a broader range of things that could be construed as choices, as Jeebus suggests?—but I assume the card FAQ will tell us.

Barge gives you "a choice of abilities" this turn. One of them happens to be setting up a future ability, but it still something you do this turn when you play the card.

The "this turn" seems to come into effect for Amulet (you still only get one choice next turn).

No. Amulet gives you a choice this turn, for effects to do this turn, and you get to choose an extra option with Elder. It also gives you a choice next turn, but that is irrelevant. Setting up that ability for next turn (where you get to choose next turn) is part of what Amulet does this turn, but it does that anyway; you don't choose to do it.

Barge gives you a choice this turn, for effects to do this turn. One of them happens to be setting up a future ability, but it still something you do this turn when you play the card.

Uhhh they weren’t disagreeing with you. They were saying that for Amulet the “this turn” part of Elder is relevant, unlike for Barge.

[Jeebus]

Uhhh they weren’t disagreeing with you. They were saying that for Amulet the “this turn” part of Elder is relevant, unlike for Barge.

Ok, yeah I was a little unclear about what they meant, but then I misunderstood. My apologies to NoMoreFun.

[silverspawn]

So let's get the big question out of the way. is Miller a MTG reference because "mill" refers to putting cards from the deck library into the discard pile graveyard?

[vidicate]

So let's get the big question out of the way. is Miller a MTG reference because "mill" refers to putting cards from the deck library into the discard pile graveyard?

Most definitely. I referenced this in an earlier comment up top. 

[dz]

If you go online, you will find out that Elder's text ONLY applies to choose one's and choose two's. Feel free to complain about the wording, it is what it is (I myself would probably give up on keeping the text at max font).

This is also implied through Donald X.'s preview text; if Elder applied to literally all abilities, then what does this sentence mean?

If I made a card like Elder as a regular pile, game after game there'd be no choose-one on the same board.

So Elder doesn't affect Barge, Jester, Border Guard, or even Duchess. It's only for cards like Pawn, Count, Amulet (for one turn), and Town Crier.

Two additional rulings that you can discover from online:
-If you Elder a Scrap and trash a Curse, you get no bonuses.
-If you Elder a Catacombs (and choose both options), you put the 3 cards you're looking at into your hand, then you discard those exact 3 cards and draw 3 new cards. (Catacombs is the only thing moving those 3 cards, so stop-moving doesn't apply here.) Yes it's weird, and would require an extreme edge case to be useful in gameplay.

[Jeebus]

If you go online, you will find out that Elder's text ONLY applies to choose one's and choose two's. Feel free to complain about the wording, it is what it is (I myself would probably give up on keeping the text at max font).

I thought that would be the case. Dominion online is not always correct in its implementation though, so it's not official until Donald says so.

Two additional rulings that you can discover from online:
-If you Elder a Scrap and trash a Curse, you get no bonuses.

I guess I'm missing something, but why does that require a ruling? How could it be thought of differently?

-If you Elder a Catacombs (and choose both options), you put the 3 cards you're looking at into your hand, then you discard those exact 3 cards and draw 3 new cards. (Catacombs is the only thing moving those 3 cards, so stop-moving doesn't apply here.) Yes it's weird, and would require an extreme edge case to be useful in gameplay.

Stop-moving would apply if Elder made you follow the Catacombs instruction an extra time after you followed it the first time. See what I wrote above.

[dz]

If you go online, you will find out that Elder's text ONLY applies to choose one's and choose two's. Feel free to complain about the wording, it is what it is (I myself would probably give up on keeping the text at max font).

I thought that would be the case. Dominion online is not always correct in its implementation though, so it's not official until Donald says so.

I can tell you that Donald X. playtested the online version before previews week. Hopefully that's not a surprise.

Two additional rulings that you can discover from online:
-If you Elder a Scrap and trash a Curse, you get no bonuses.

I guess I'm missing something, but why does that require a ruling? How could it be thought of differently?

People asked about it on discord! I didn't expect the question either.

-If you Elder a Catacombs (and choose both options), you put the 3 cards you're looking at into your hand, then you discard those exact 3 cards and draw 3 new cards. (Catacombs is the only thing moving those 3 cards, so stop-moving doesn't apply here.) Yes it's weird, and would require an extreme edge case to be useful in gameplay.

Stop-moving would apply if Elder made you follow the Catacombs instruction an extra time after you followed it the first time. See what I wrote above.

I guess you're asking, when does Elder's ability apply? If so then it's your second interpretation: you make the choices all at once, and then you do them in the written order.

[familiar]

For Catacombs case, can we discard them and +3 Cards 1st and then put them into my hand?

[ossiangrr]

Are these the final layouts of the printed cards?
This is the second time I've seen an ally that says "spend a Favor, for.." and that comma is just really bothering me grammatically.