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[infangthief]

The only other time I've been in a game with you, you asked some question about your rationale. It was days before I noticed your cleverness.

Sorry, that probably came out wrong. I mean, I was slow.

[MiX]

But I was voting for you, not MiX.

Yeah, this...hmm...uh...townpoints for e, I suppose. Way more for infang though, I liked these posts.

Giving reads information away is great! Mostly because there aren't set in stone at all, so I want to give them a little bit more confirmation bias.

[faust]

Galzria is town.

I never get the purpose of these posts. Except to boast about how you were right later, I suppose.

Why does it annoy you?

I just dislike information being revealed for no reason. It helps scum more than it helps us.

What about Galzria's scum-to-chum list?

Well it's not great, but I can at least see that creating a readslist has some value in helping to organize your thoughts (though preferably they wouldn't get posted).

[faust]

Giving reads information away is great! Mostly because there aren't set in stone at all, so I want to give them a little bit more confirmation bias.

I'm like 70% sure that I'm being trolled at this point.

[EFHW]

Galzria is town.

I never get the purpose of these posts. Except to boast about how you were right later, I suppose.

I usually post them when I want to semi-randomly assign town to someone so that I can forget about them and focus on other people to find scum.

I don't get it. Semi-random doesn't seem to fit putting someone to the side and focusing on others to find scum.

It’s like giving someone a day pass. Saying you aren’t going to look at them until later.

So you announce in thread that they are town? Sorry about belaboring this, but what you are saying sounds strange to me.

[jotheonah]

Is it just me or does it seem like joth finds a reason to suggest no exile in every game lately?

I can live with this meta.

Cool. but why? specifically in this game on specifically Day 1 I feel like this is the literal opportune Day in any game outside of a all VT game. Why is NoEx good here day 1?

(haven't fully caught up)

So, ok. Assume there are better and worse town PRs. In a normal game, you have some protection against the day 1 exile accidentally hitting your best PRs. There are X-1 claims, which are often believed. So the calculus of exile vs no exile includes the fact that the exile is relatively safe in terms of hitting your best PRs. In this game, our best PRs don't even know their roles. So we could hit our cop or our vig or whatever you think is the best role in there much more easily than in a normal game.

[jotheonah]

It was joke of sorts. My train of thought went this way: in order for us to ask "why would scum!fang do this to town!MiX" requires us to know for certain that either MiX is town or fang is scum. This involves a flip. So what MiX was really asking was for us to exile himself (flipping town) so we could do the wagon analysis D2 on you to determine that you are scum.

I mean, we could exile you for the flip and make the determination that MiX is scum, but it is funnier pointing out that MiX was (indirectly) asking to exile himself

vote: e for this post. Something about saying "it was a joke of sorts" instead of just "it was a joke" pings me scummy. Like e is afraid that just calling it a joke will seem like scum trying to back off a read, and compensating with that hedge. This is a very weak day 1 case but it was about time I voted.

[faust]

Is it just me or does it seem like joth finds a reason to suggest no exile in every game lately?

I can live with this meta.

Cool. but why? specifically in this game on specifically Day 1 I feel like this is the literal opportune Day in any game outside of a all VT game. Why is NoEx good here day 1?

(haven't fully caught up)

So, ok. Assume there are better and worse town PRs. In a normal game, you have some protection against the day 1 exile accidentally hitting your best PRs. There are X-1 claims, which are often believed. So the calculus of exile vs no exile includes the fact that the exile is relatively safe in terms of hitting your best PRs. In this game, our best PRs don't even know their roles. So we could hit our cop or our vig or whatever you think is the best role in there much more easily than in a normal game.

This goes at things from completely the wrong way. Forcing a PR to claim is only very marginally better than exiling them. The calculus for exiles should in fact take this into account: In pursuing an exile, we should assume to out (and thus effectively all but lose) some average X of town PRs. The higher X is, the stronger the case for no exile. In this game, X = 0.

[jotheonah]

This is why I love playing with you faust. We have exactly opposite brains. I think sometimes it leads us down a rabbit hole of suspicion with each other, but it also really helps expand my understanding of the game.

[jotheonah]

Like you can roughly divide this forum into humanities people and math people and we're wired very differently. It's interesting to think about how much of a role that has played in games over the years.

[J Reggie]

Night 1 only

• The N2 town hatch is chosen. If it is not investigative, there is a 50% chance it will hatch N1 instead. This means that if this player is exiled D1, there will be no N2 town hatch. If the N2 town hatch fails due to too many town being hatched, this choice is discarded.
  

Hi J Reggie, where it says "if this player is exiled D1", should that be "D2"?
Also, at what point during Night 1 is the N2 town hatch chosen? Before or after kills? Could there be no N2 town hatch because the selected player got killed N1?

Yes, that should read "D2".

It is before night kills, so that player could also be night killed.

[MiX]

Giving reads information away is great! Mostly because there aren't set in stone at all, so I want to give them a little bit more confirmation bias.

I'm like 70% sure that I'm being trolled at this point.

Trolled is probably the wrong word, but yes.

Also, I do believe it helps town, or at least me. If it helps scum more, I'm not sure, and in fact I don't care.

It was joke of sorts. My train of thought went this way: in order for us to ask "why would scum!fang do this to town!MiX" requires us to know for certain that either MiX is town or fang is scum. This involves a flip. So what MiX was really asking was for us to exile himself (flipping town) so we could do the wagon analysis D2 on you to determine that you are scum.

I mean, we could exile you for the flip and make the determination that MiX is scum, but it is funnier pointing out that MiX was (indirectly) asking to exile himself

vote: e for this post. Something about saying "it was a joke of sorts" instead of just "it was a joke" pings me scummy. Like e is afraid that just calling it a joke will seem like scum trying to back off a read, and compensating with that hedge. This is a very weak day 1 case but it was about time I voted.

I like this analysis.

This is why I love playing with you faust. We have exactly opposite brains. I think sometimes it leads us down a rabbit hole of suspicion with each other, but it also really helps expand my understanding of the game.

It's really the difference between "we all start with a PR and we discover what we were drawn" and "we get a PR out of the available ones each night". I think the second interpretation is much better to make decisions with.

[infangthief]

But I was voting for you, not MiX.

You know what, that's right. I had it in my head that you were voting for MiX after your first post about him, but you were voting for me

I should really pay better attention.

If you thought I was voting for MiX, what did you mean by OMGUS? Here:

Vote: infangthief

Because OMGUS is a pretty solid case at this point

Do you have a reason to think infang would vote town in RVS as scum?

That's a good point. We should flip you so that way we can ask questions like this on D2

[infangthief]

It's really the difference between "we all start with a PR and we discover what we were drawn" and "we get a PR out of the available ones each night". I think the second interpretation is much better to make decisions with.

And by "available ones" you mean any role that hasn't hatched yet. This is a good clear way of describing it.

[infangthief]

Prod request: scolapasta

[jotheonah]

So if town in this game are green eggs, does that make the mafia ... ham?

[gkrieg13]

Galzria is town.

I never get the purpose of these posts. Except to boast about how you were right later, I suppose.

Why does it annoy you?

I just dislike information being revealed for no reason. It helps scum more than it helps us.

I think this would be true if it meant something to the player actually revealing it.

[gkrieg13]

Galzria is town.

I never get the purpose of these posts. Except to boast about how you were right later, I suppose.

I usually post them when I want to semi-randomly assign town to someone so that I can forget about them and focus on other people to find scum.

I don't get it. Semi-random doesn't seem to fit putting someone to the side and focusing on others to find scum.

It’s like giving someone a day pass. Saying you aren’t going to look at them until later.

So you announce in thread that they are town? Sorry about belaboring this, but what you are saying sounds strange to me.

I'm saying it happens all the time. <person> does something perceived as townie and <someone> else says "<person> gets a day pass", which I have understood to mean that <someone> is not going to consider voting for <person> that Day, and instead look elsewhere.

Same thing as announcing that person is town, at least how I see it.

[gkrieg13]

vote: joth

[faust]

Galzria is town.

I never get the purpose of these posts. Except to boast about how you were right later, I suppose.

Why does it annoy you?

I just dislike information being revealed for no reason. It helps scum more than it helps us.

I think this would be true if it meant something to the player actually revealing it.

Well if it doesn't then it's just spam?

[faust]

Vote: Dylan

[gkrieg13]

Galzria is town.

I never get the purpose of these posts. Except to boast about how you were right later, I suppose.

Why does it annoy you?

I just dislike information being revealed for no reason. It helps scum more than it helps us.

I think this would be true if it meant something to the player actually revealing it.

Well if it doesn't then it's just spam?

I mean, it's like MiX was saying, his reads can change at any time, so it doesn't really reveal very much.

[faust]

Alright so either it's a useful piece of information and then it's useful to scum, or it's not and then it's not useful to anyone. There is no sweet spot in the middle where it somehow becomes useful to town.

[jotheonah]

Alright so either it's a useful piece of information and then it's useful to scum, or it's not and then it's not useful to anyone. There is no sweet spot in the middle where it somehow becomes useful to town.

Look, town can either play as a bunch of individuals keeping everything as close to the vest as possible or as a team pooling information and insights in order to make better decisions as a group. Doing the latter surely gives scum more information, but it also allows town to, you know, play a team game as a team game, work together, learn from each other, and generally improve the quality of their guesses. Whether the opportunity for town collaboration outweighs the opportunities for scum sabotage is, sort of, the whole game.

But to say that you should never share information that might be useful to scum is to say that you should never share information, which is clearly absurd. Even if we decided we wanted to play this game as a bunch of non-collaborative individuals, then we would face the problem of there being no discussion from which to source the information that allows us to make an informed choice.

So, we disclose and discuss our reads.

[jotheonah]

Like, faust, imagine if you will the perfect mafia game played by a team of faust clones. What, exactly, would the discussion consist of. How would the fausts discover the scum!faust in their midst?