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Author Topic: Seaside 2E Announced  (Read 11516 times)

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LastFootnote

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Re: Seaside 2E Announced
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2022, 11:11:00 pm »
0

Honestly wharf should be removed. Itís too strong and does everything. If it didnít have the +buy it would still be super strong and worth it. It just gives too much, and if I had a time machine itís definitely one of 7 seaside cards Iíd rethink. And the second edition is kind of a time machine.

Also, I have a feeling 7 cards will be replaced and we get 2 extraó for a few reasons: seaside already has more blank cards, and if any of NV, island, or pirate ship are removed (incredibly likely that pirate ship is removed) the lack of Mats adds room for more new cards. We might even only lose 6 cards.

Right now Seaside has 300 physical cards. If it were going to get more cards, it would be in groups of 100. And I will tell you right now, that's not happening. Seaside will still be 300 cards. It might get cheaper, like Hinterlands is! But it also might not. We are in an inflationary period and board game margins are pretty thin I think.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Seaside 2E Announced
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2022, 03:45:29 pm »
0

Coppersmith and saboteur both cards I never got a chance to try. As a copper strategist thatís definitely a card i would have liked. However there is a card in dominion allies that is similar and stronger than saboteur
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Holger

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Re: Seaside 2E Announced
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2022, 07:49:37 pm »
+1

Navigator is weak powerwise and sifting isnít something that other cards donít do.

Trash at the risk of blowing up good stuff isnít something any other card does (well, Junk Dealer and Upgrade technically do but then you are actively gambling, having no junk in hand and only hoping to draw into junk) so Lookout is unique to some degree.
Cathedral also does this. Initially, its risk is lower than with Lookout since you can choose between 5 cards rather than 3, but unlike Lookout you can't stop "playing" it when the risk of trashing a good card becomes too high.
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Vengil

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Re: Seaside 2E Announced
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2022, 06:41:22 am »
0

Hoping Lookout survives somehow; it's still one of my favorite Seaside cards.

It's also my favorite card... :'(
Please don't delete it!

Maybe remove:
- Navigator
- Explorer
- Embargo (obligatorily removed: it will save material in the box).
- Pearl Diver
- pirate ship
- Gost ship (too powerful?)

I don't want to lose any more cards. Not Lookout!
« Last Edit: January 30, 2022, 07:23:40 am by Vengil »
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Holger

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Re: Seaside 2E Announced
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2022, 07:13:25 am »
0

Honestly wharf should be removed. Itís too strong and does everything. If it didnít have the +buy it would still be super strong and worth it. It just gives too much, and if I had a time machine itís definitely one of 7 seaside cards Iíd rethink. And the second edition is kind of a time machine.

Also, I have a feeling 7 cards will be replaced and we get 2 extraó for a few reasons: seaside already has more blank cards, and if any of NV, island, or pirate ship are removed (incredibly likely that pirate ship is removed) the lack of Mats adds room for more new cards. We might even only lose 6 cards.

Right now Seaside has 300 physical cards. If it were going to get more cards, it would be in groups of 100. And I will tell you right now, that's not happening. Seaside will still be 300 cards. It might get cheaper, like Hinterlands is! But it also might not. We are in an inflationary period and board game margins are pretty thin I think.

Thanks for the information! So Seaside 2E can at most contain 27 kingdom cards (27*11=297, 28*11=308>300). This means that to get 9 new cards Donald has to remove 8 old ones (and there can be at most one VP card among the 27, e.g. Island).

I don't really see Seaside having that many duds that need to be removed, but of course I'd like 9 new and better Seaside cards. :D

FWIW, is the restriction to multiples of 100 physical cards due to packaging or printing issues? AFAIR, all big expansions have had an exact multiple of 100 cards (300, 400 or 500), but small expansions like Alchemists did not (150 cards).
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Dominionaer

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Re: Seaside 2E Announced
« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2022, 07:25:59 am »
+2

FWIW, is the restriction to multiples of 100 physical cards due to packaging or printing issues? AFAIR, all big expansions have had an exact multiple of 100 cards (300, 400 or 500), but small expansions like Alchemists did not (150 cards).

AFAIK Altenburg is printing 50 cards on one sheet.
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Holger

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Re: Seaside 2E Announced
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2022, 07:27:47 am »
+2

Hoping Lookout survives somehow; it's still one of my favorite Seaside cards.

It's also my favorite card... :'(
Please don't delete it!

Maybe remove:
- Navigator
- Explorer
- Embargo (obligatorily removed: it will save material in the box).
 [...]
Embargo can easily be made to work without tokens: You just put the trashed Embargo card sideways under the target pile to indicate the curse penalty.
If RGG wants to save material, the Island mats can also be eliminated (just put Island's target under the Island card and keep it set aside for the rest of the game), as can the Pirate Ship mats if you switch to a different kind of "coin" tokens (to avoid confusing with Coffers when mixing expansions). But I suppose Pirate Ship will be removed anyway...
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Dominionaer

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Re: Seaside 2E Announced
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2022, 07:43:21 am »
0

Embargo can easily be made to work without tokens: You just put the trashed Embargo card sideways under the target pile to indicate the curse penalty.
Question is, wether it then still counts as in Trash
« Last Edit: January 30, 2022, 07:44:27 am by Dominionaer »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Seaside 2E Announced
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2022, 05:06:37 pm »
+1

Really excited for this, especially since the duration cards in the post-Guilds sets have often been my favourites.

I hope Hinterlands 2E is in the pipeline. Like Seaside it also has enough blank space to fit another card. Of the early sets it's probably the one where Events make the most sense, and can be used to substitute cards like Cache and Ill Gotten Gains (freeing up more room for new ideas).

EDIT: Corrected a factual error
« Last Edit: February 01, 2022, 02:13:46 pm by NoMoreFun »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Seaside 2E Announced
« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2022, 10:25:46 pm »
+1

I hope Hinterlands 2E is in the pipeline. Like Seaside it also has enough blank space to fit another card.

Only if you cut at least two of the three Victory cards.
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Oyvind

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Re: Seaside 2E Announced
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2022, 04:52:19 am »
0

I agree with Erick, I believe Navigator and Pearl Diver might be saved, though they both should be among the first to go, but hopefully the same guys can be included in the artwork for some of the new cards, so that this wouldnít be a problem.

I also think they will add a kingdom card slot (going from 26 to 27), so eight will probably be removed. If thatís the case, I hope these are the ones that will leave:
- Cutpurse
- Embargo
- Explorer
- Merchant Ship
- Navigator
- Pearl Diver
- Pirate Ship
- Treasure Map

But I think these will leave:
- Embargo
- Explorer
- Island
- Merchant Ship
- Native Village
- Pirate Ship
- Sea Hag
- Treasure Map

Extra components like mats and tokens only useable by one card are elements Iím pretty certain will be removed, so thatís why I believe that Embargo, Island, Native Village and Pirate Ship all will be removed. Pirate Ship has the added confusion with the coin tokens, so thatís another strong argument for that particular card to be removed. Sea Hag will probably be removed for the same reasons that Saboteur was cut. That leaves three cards, and since Iím not seeing Navigator and Pearl Diver leave, I think Explorer, Merchant Ship and Treasure Map are the weakest ones and will be cut.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 07:50:22 am by Oyvind »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Seaside 2E Announced
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2022, 10:50:30 am »
0

Hey I happen to like Iíll gotten gains. Itís my favorite treasure. Also you couldnít put embargo on the bottom of the pile it needs to be in the trash so I can use grave robber to obtain it again. There is more than 10 embargo tokens for the rare occasions you play it more than twice. Well they better tell us which cards are getting replaced soon, or otherwise there will be a huge riot on the forum and on Facebook over which cards are getting replaced. Either that or an actual war.
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silverspawn

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Re: Seaside 2E Announced
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2022, 11:19:22 am »
0

Making lists is a cool idea. Here is mine for cards I predict will be removed, ordered from most to least confident:

- Lookout
- Navigator
- Sea Hag
- Ghost Ship
- Pirate Ship
- Merchant Ship
- Island
- Pearl Diver

trivialknot

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Re: Seaside 2E Announced
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2022, 12:24:56 pm »
0

Interesting to speculate on which cards will be removed, because Seaside is in a different place from Base or Intrigue 1E.  In those sets, the removed cards were very much on the weak end.  In Seaside, there are a few strong cards that I could see subject to consideration (Wharf, Ambassador, Ghost Ship) but such powerful cards tend to have a lot of fans.  I'm guessing they're here to stay.

I think DXV has said that Navigator and Pearl Diver can't be removed because the art depicts real people, but perhaps the situation changed?  And what about the Island/Pirate Ship/Native Village triptych?  It's neat but I suppose not strictly necessary to keep them together.

Anyway, my best guesses are:
Navigator
Pearl Diver
Pirate Ship
Merchant Ship
Embargo
Island
Explorer
Treasure Map

I also checked with the rankings to see if they match up with the lowest ranking cards.  Thunderminion's bottom 8 are nearly the same, but Island is swapped out for Treasury.  Admittedly, I wouldn't miss Treasury, it's just not that impactful of a card.  In the current card Glicko rankings, Island is swapped out for Cutpurse.  Another one I wouldn't particularly miss.

Of the above cards, I would most miss Treasure Map.  And, I really like Embargo but I would love if it were redesigned.
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Squidd

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Re: Seaside 2E Announced
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2022, 01:04:08 pm »
+2

Also you couldnít put embargo on the bottom of the pile it needs to be in the trash so I can use grave robber to obtain it again.
This already doesn't work. Embargo is a 2, Graverobber only gains between 3 and 6.
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pubby

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Re: Seaside 2E Announced
« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2022, 01:36:49 pm »
+7

"Seaside" already has two 'e's in it  :o
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BBL

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Re: Seaside 2E Announced
« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2022, 02:02:52 pm »
+3

I wonder if Lookout is simply changed to "You may" and its costs get increased to $4. It is a fine card as it is and I would feel sad to see it go completetly.
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Robz888

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Re: Seaside 2E Announced
« Reply #42 on: January 31, 2022, 03:36:37 pm »
+6

I'm there for you guys with the tough answers.

Seaside:

The biggest thing here is, the set has two cards that hand out junk that cost less than $5. Cards like that tend to dominate games, since people buy them turns 1-2 and start playing them fast, so it's bad to have two of them in one set, even though when they're in the same game the one defends against the other. I just don't want heavy-Seaside games to always have one of those cards. So either Ambassador or Sea Hag should be a more powerful card for $5. Ambassador looks more innocent so probably I would change Sea Hag.

Lookout is the dud of the set. The problem is, some people are terrified of trashing a good card with it. At the same time trashing bad cards looks less exciting to some players. And as a trasher it's not exceptional. So the overall package is a card that a lot of players don't want, but that some experienced players realize is okay but not special. I could instead have some other card more people liked.

Originally the set did not have tokens. Embargo put itself on a pile; Pirate Ship kept one treasure per attack and counted them; Pirate Ship and Native Village did have mats, but they were card-sized (when that changed I got to add Haven back in). If I had known the set would have counters, I would have tried to get more use out of them, just as I made two more VP token cards to go with Monument.

Outpost could be simpler. Ideally it would have you discard 2 at the start of your next turn, rather than having the wonky Clean-up-modifying effect it has. There was not enough time between when I realized that and when the card had to be finalized.

Again some people complain about various other cards but I am having none of it. Pirate Ship is weak but I don't think it should be stronger. I like Treasure Map as is. Fishing Village and Wharf are strong engine-enablers and well we are talking good times there. Pearl Diver and Navigator are not prized, but they look reasonable to me, and as I have said many times, if I made all cards better by making them maximally complex, the game would have no players. Explorer is fine, why do people even complain about Explorer. They can't all be the best $5 ever.

Based on this, I think we can confidently predict Sea Hag and Lookout are dead. Navigator and Pirate Ship seem likely, too. After that I'd guess Pearl Diver and Treasure Map.

Explorer is fine, why do people even complain about Explorer. They can't all be the best $5 ever.

We're holding you to that, Donald!
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trivialknot

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Re: Seaside 2E Announced
« Reply #43 on: January 31, 2022, 04:02:17 pm »
+6

That's DXV's opinion like 10 years ago though.  I too had opinions 10 years ago, I wouldn't like to be held to account for those myself.

On the other hand, DXV has said similar stuff more recently, 2 years ago.  In response to the question "What cards would you remove if later sets had an actual 2E overhaul?"

Quote from: Donald_X
Seaside: Pearl Diver, Navigator, Pirate Ship, Sea Hag, Embargo, Lookout. The first three are duds; Sea Hag because I don't like having two cheap junking attacks in one set and would rather take out Sea Hag than Ambassador, plus some people don't like that it has no upside, just attack; Embargo is a dud but also I get to not include Embargo tokens; Lookout is fine but a lot of casual players don't like it. With any 2E I would try to make better versions of cards that left that had merit to the premise or flavor, and would try to get more use out of extra components. So here, I'd have maybe 3 cards that used the coin tokens, and a different Pirate Ship. I wanted to do a Seaside 2E; it didn't happen because Jay didn't want to ask Valerie if we could replace Harem and give her a new card in Intrigue 2E, and well Seaside has two cards depicting people, Pearl Diver and Navigator. Plus Jay had boxes of Embargo tokens sitting around. It still might happen someday; the usual problem is, it's competing with all other projects.
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brokoli

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Re: Seaside 2E Announced
« Reply #44 on: January 31, 2022, 04:28:48 pm »
+4

Navigator is weak powerwise and sifting isnít something that other cards donít do.

Trash at the risk of blowing up good stuff isnít something any other card does (well, Junk Dealer and Upgrade technically do but then you are actively gambling, having no junk in hand and only hoping to draw into junk) so Lookout is unique to some degree.

Coppersmith also did something no other card does  :(

Not really though after Bank. And Bank has a more reasonable power level, too.

While coppersmith and bank have similar uses, Coppersmith is really focused on copper and when it works it makes you think in a different way than the usual "just thin your deck as soon as possible and throw all your coppers away".
Bank can work in any treasurish deck.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Seaside 2E Announced
« Reply #45 on: January 31, 2022, 04:30:45 pm »
0

I hope Hinterlands 2E is in the pipeline. Like Seaside it also has enough blank space to fit another card.

Only if you cut at least two of the three Victory cards.

Maybe Farmland but definitely not Silk Road and Tunnel.
(I straight up misremembered how many blanks were in Hinterlands and didn't check, well called out)
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brokoli

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Re: Seaside 2E Announced
« Reply #46 on: January 31, 2022, 04:35:51 pm »
+1

It makes me mad, but the more I think about it, the more I am confident that Island will be removed. Now that distant lands exists, now that there are different ways to exile province, Island is not unique anymore. Adding the facts that it allows to remove a matÖ

It's completely irrationnal, it's only a game and only one kingdom card among a hundred of, but I'm really sad  :-[
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silverspawn

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Re: Seaside 2E Announced
« Reply #47 on: January 31, 2022, 04:55:00 pm »
0

Based on this, I think we can confidently predict Sea Hag and Lookout are dead.

Yeah, this was exactly the quote I had in memory. I knew he had singled out lookout as bad, I just didn't know where.

trivialknot

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Re: Seaside 2E Announced
« Reply #48 on: January 31, 2022, 10:23:04 pm »
+2

Since I just play with physical copies, we don't actually need to drop any of the cards just because they get removed from 2E.  So I asked my husband which he would be willing to drop if they were removed.

His list: Haven, Pearl Diver, Cutpurse, Navigator, Pirate Ship, Explorer, Wharf

My list: Pearl Diver, Ambassador, Navigator, Cutpurse, Navigator, Pirate Ship, Explorer, Ghost Ship, Wharf

Although, I think it also might matter what they get replaced with.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Seaside 2E Announced
« Reply #49 on: February 01, 2022, 12:21:24 am »
0

Since I just play with physical copies, we don't actually need to drop any of the cards just because they get removed from 2E.  So I asked my husband which he would be willing to drop if they were removed.

His list: Haven, Pearl Diver, Cutpurse, Navigator, Pirate Ship, Explorer, Wharf

My list: Pearl Diver, Ambassador, Navigator, Cutpurse, Navigator, Pirate Ship, Explorer, Ghost Ship, Wharf

Although, I think it also might matter what they get replaced with.
You would actually want to drop wharf? why?
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