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[jotheonah]

still waiting for EFHW's PM

[infangthief]

Just over 2 hours until end of game - no more challenges after 5:23pm forum time today. Exciting isn't it.

Challenge responses can still be sent after that time.

scolapasta, if you're wanting to challenge something please say which clue number.

[EFHW]

Sorry! Didn't realize you were waiting for me. Let me reconstruct my thinking and I'll pm joth.

[scolapasta]

OK, sure, how about:

Challenge: turn 11

[jotheonah]

We have a problem.

I'm pretty sure EFHW accidentally sent me her answers for a challenge to Turn 11, rather than a challenge to Turn 12. Which is an issue because now that 11 has been challenged, EFHW needs to submit those answers and I'm the one who needs to match them. No real way to maintain integrity there.

[jotheonah]

Unless I'm wrong about any part of that, I swear I'm having a terrible time keeping all this straight.

[scolapasta]

If that's the case, I can rescind that challenge. I'm only doing it because I was absent for a while, and that's the only chance to move up in score right now.

So if challenging 11 breaks thing, I can switch to challenge 13, I guess.

[jotheonah]

Challenge of Turn 12 results:

Galzria and EFHW both said

Rejected: Kick
Accepted: Bowl

Challenge is passed.

[Galzria]

Is there a challenge in progress right now, or are we at final scores?

[jotheonah]

I guess we’re at final scores!

[scolapasta]

What about my challenge? I haven't seen any messages.

[Swowl]

What about my challenge? I haven't seen any messages.

wait which one did you challenge?

[scolapasta]

OK, sure, how about:

Challenge: turn 11

We have a problem.

I'm pretty sure EFHW accidentally sent me her answers for a challenge to Turn 11, rather than a challenge to Turn 12. Which is an issue because now that 11 has been challenged, EFHW needs to submit those answers and I'm the one who needs to match them. No real way to maintain integrity there.

If that's the case, I can rescind that challenge. I'm only doing it because I was absent for a while, and that's the only chance to move up in score right now.

So if challenging 11 breaks thing, I can switch to challenge 13, I guess.

[jotheonah]

Maybe type challenge 13 in bold?

[Swowl]

Maybe type challenge 13 in bold?

So is challenging 13 me and Galz or me and Joth?

[scolapasta]

Maybe type challenge 13 in bold?

I think it's you and galz.

Sorry about no bold. The original challenge was in bold, but was offering to change here if 11 in fact did not work. (Never seemed fully confirmed that the wrong thing had gotten sent)

So is challenging 13 me and Galz or me and Joth?

[infangthief]

I've not been on much, but looks like things are going ok.

Challenge of Turn 12 results:

Galzria and EFHW both said

Rejected: Kick
Accepted: Bowl

Challenge is passed.

Ok, so Galzria and EFHW each gain 2 points. But Swowl loses 2 because he guessed Jeweler, not Bowl, on turn 13. And joth gains 2 points because of that.

Scolapasta is challenging clue 13, so Swowl and Galzria need to PM scolapasta with the words which Galzria proposed and Swowl selected/rejected.

Chaos I'll try and piece it all together tomorrow.

[infangthief]

(This post edited after final challenge results were published in #193)

End of game:

TEMPLE	OLYMPUS	PUMPKIN	RICE
KICK	ASH	BUBBLE	BOWL
SUGAR	JEWELER	WHALE	MILL
BLACKSMITH	POINT	BENCH	UNIVERSITY

Turn 1:
ZEUS

Turn 2:
Clue: Building

Turn 3:
Guess: TEMPLE
Clue: APPRENTICESHIP

Turn 4:
Guess: UNIVERSITY
Clue: DOMINION

Turn 5:
Guess: Blacksmith
Clue: Flour

Turn 6:
Guess: MILL
Clue: GRAINS

Clue 6 was challenged unsuccessfully by infangthief

Turn 7
Guess: Rice
Clue: Edible

Turn 8:
Guess: Sugar
Clue: Blow

Turn 9:
Guess: Bubble
Clue: Sightseer

Clue 9 was challenged successfully by EFHW

Turn 10:
Guess: Whale
Clue: Flame

Clue 10 was challenged unsuccessfully by infangthief.

Turn 11
Guess: point
Clue: Sports

Turn 12:
Guess: Olympus
Clue: Craft

Clue 12 was challenged successfully (guess 13 was wrong) by jotheonah.

Turn 13:
Guess: Jeweler
Clue: Smash

Clue 13 was challenged successfully (guess 14 was wrong) by scolapasta.

Turn 14:
Guess: Pumpkin
Clue: Legs

Turn 15:
Guess: Kick
Clue: Soot

Final scores:

Galzria: 17 (2 turns, survived 3 challenges; 10+1+2+2+2)
EFHW: 15 (2 turns, survived 1 challenge, 1 successful challenge; 10+1+2+2)
Swowl: 15 (4 turns, survived 3 challenges, failed 2 challenges; 10+1+1+1+2+2+2-2-2)
jotheonah: 13 (2 turns, survived 1 challenge, failed 1 challenge, 1 successful challenge; 10+1+2-2+2)
scolapasta: 13 (2 turns, 1 successful challenge; 10+1+2)
infangthief: 8 (3 turns, failed 1 challenge, 2 unsuccessful challenges; 10+1+1-2-1-1)

[scolapasta]

Challenge results are in:

Swowl: Accept: Bowl Rejected: Bench
Galz: Rejected Bench, and picked Bowl

So they match. Though interestingly, Galz says that was not the initial intention and that swowl's guess was actually wrong.

"I mean, he guessed Jeweler, which was supposed to be Bowl. So he’s wrong there. But I can’t tell you that I meant Bowl (I mean, yes, I can, and I have) - but that doesn’t matter because Swowl got it wrong.

I guess I can guess at what Swowl was going for? Is that what I’ll supposed to do here? It’s weird to “guess Forward, not backward”, especially knowing he’s wrong.


I would say he guessed Jeweler, Rejected Bench, and picked Bowl… even though that’s not what I intended."


This aspect of challenges seems a little weird.

[infangthief]

Swowl's guess of JEWELER is only 'wrong' to the extent that Galzria managed to convey to EFHW that he selected some other word using his clue 12.

So that came to light via the challenge of clue 12: EFHW and Galzria both said that Galzria had selected BOWL; that is what makes Swowl's guess wrong, and Swowl lost 2 points due to the challenge of clue 12.

As far as the challenge of clue 13 is concerned, what Swowl guessed on turn 13 does not come into it.
Swowl successfully conveyed to Galzria that he selected BOWL and rejected BENCH (even though that wasn't what Galzria was expecting when Galzria gave his clue).
So for this challenge Swowl and Galzria gain 2 points each, and BOWL is the officially selected word.
Now this means that jotheonah's guess of PUMPKIN is wrong, and jotheonah loses 2 points.
Scolapasta gains 2 points for a successful challenge (because at least one other player lost points).

[infangthief]

Final scores:

Galzria: 17 (2 turns, survived 3 challenges; 10+1+2+2+2)
EFHW: 15 (2 turns, survived 1 challenge, 1 successful challenge; 10+1+2+2)
Swowl: 15 (4 turns, survived 3 challenges, failed 2 challenges; 10+1+1+1+2+2+2-2-2)
jotheonah: 13 (2 turns, survived 1 challenge, failed 1 challenge, 1 successful challenge; 10+1+2-2+2)
scolapasta: 13 (2 turns, 1 successful challenge; 10+1+2)
infangthief: 8 (3 turns, failed 1 challenge, 2 unsuccessful challenges; 10+1+1-2-1-1)

[infangthief]

A similar thing happened with the turn 9 challenge.

My clue 8 ("Blow") was intended to select WHALE, reject PUMPKIN (I thought those were EFHW's two "Edible" words) and propose BUBBLE and KICK.
Then on turn 9, Swowl guessed BUBBLE, so I had to rethink and try to see things from Swowl's perspective.

To be honest I was totally at sea with the "Sightseer" clue. Like I was sure "Sightseer" + "Flame" had to be OLYMPUS, but EFHW guessed POINT which is why I challenged the "Flame" clue. Maybe I need to go and do more sightseeing.

[scolapasta]

Final scores:

Galzria: 17 (2 turns, survived 3 challenges; 10+1+2+2+2)
EFHW: 15 (2 turns, survived 1 challenge, 1 successful challenge; 10+1+2+2)
Swowl: 15 (4 turns, survived 3 challenges, failed 2 challenges; 10+1+1+1+2+2+2-2-2)
jotheonah: 13 (2 turns, survived 1 challenge, failed 1 challenge, 1 successful challenge; 10+1+2-2+2)
scolapasta: 13 (2 turns, 1 successful challenge; 10+1+2)
infangthief: 8 (3 turns, failed 1 challenge, 2 unsuccessful challenges; 10+1+1-2-1-1)

My challenge failed.

[Swowl]

GAlz still takes the cup I believe.

I think the point pasta made is good, however, I see no way of fixing it without making the game turn based in some fashion.

[infangthief]

Scola's challenge of clue 13 succeeded because it revealed that joth's guess on turn 14 was wrong.

In the same way, joth's challenge of clue 12 succeeded because it revealed that Swowl's guess on turn 13 was wrong.

• If you think someone has made a wrong Guess on their turn, then the way to call it out is to challenge the clue from the previous turn.

When you make a challenge, you are challenging two things:

• Did the Proposer and Selecter/Rejecter give good enough clues to reach a common understanding?
• Did the Guesser guess the right word?

First we look at (1). The "common understanding" is tested by getting both players to state which words they think were selected and rejected. i.e. were their clues good enough for each other? If so, they gain points, if not they lose points.
If their answers do not match, then we conclude that their clues were not good enough. In this case we don't bother with (2); there was no "right" word, so the Guesser is off the hook.
If their answers do match, then we conclude that their clues were indeed good enough. In this case we move on to (2); the Guesser should have been able to identify the right word, and loses points if they didn't.

If the challenge is for the most recent clue, then (2) doesn't come into it at all; it is just a challenge for (1).
But, if the next turn has already been taken, it is important that (2) is included. Otherwise there is nothing to stop the Guess just being some unrelated grid-word, and the game can degenerate into just targetting 1 word with each clue.